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"When making reserve rolls, make a single roll for all outflanking Deathwolves units, which you can choose to re-roll. On a successful Reserves Roll, all the outflanking Deathwolves units arrive from Reserve."

Outflank: "During Deployment, players can declare that any unit that contains at least one model with this special rule is attempting to Outflank the enemy."

So, if I take a Wolf Guard Battle Leader from the Deathwolves Detachment, and have him join another unit, such as Wolfen, can that unit of IC+Wolfen now outflank with the rest of the Deathwolves Detachment per their Detachment outflank rule?
Normally ICs don't confer rules to their units, but in the case of Outflank you only need one model in the unit, the IC, to have the rule.

The unit will be able to Outflank, but unless it is a unit from the Deathwolves Detachment, it will not be a Deathwolves unit, and will not benefit from the combined reserve roll.

Actually, there was a big discussion about a strat similar to this with Grey knights with Drop Pods. The BRB states that you can choose to roll for the Unit, and\or any vehicles or ICs that have joined the unit, meaning that depending on interpretation you very well could.

When you join the WGBL to a unit, the IC is becoming part of that unit.
Not the other way around. The Wulfen do not become Deathwolf Units.

 Swampmist wrote:
Actually, there was a big discussion about a strat similar to this with Grey knights with Drop Pods. The BRB states that you can choose to roll for the Unit, and\or any vehicles or ICs that have joined the unit, meaning that depending on interpretation you very well could.

Not QUITE the same thing, actually.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Durandal wrote:
"When making reserve rolls, make a single roll for all outflanking Deathwolves units, which you can choose to re-roll. On a successful Reserves Roll, all the outflanking Deathwolves units arrive from Reserve."

Outflank: "During Deployment, players can declare that any unit that contains at least one model with this special rule is attempting to Outflank the enemy."

So, if I take a Wolf Guard Battle Leader from the Deathwolves Detachment, and have him join another unit, such as Wolfen, can that unit of IC+Wolfen now outflank with the rest of the Deathwolves Detachment per their Detachment outflank rule?
Normally ICs don't confer rules to their units, but in the case of Outflank you only need one model in the unit, the IC, to have the rule.

Does the Deathwolves Formation grant Outflank to its units/ICs? If not, and the WGBL does not carry it himself, then he cannot transfer his Outflank benefit to his unit.

But as for the rest, as others have mentioned, the unit the IC joined is not a Deathwolves unit, and the IC is considered to be a part of the unit he has joined.

Yes, the Detachment special rules grant outflank, and the WGBL is a Deathwolves unit who could outflank per the detachment rule on his own. I know normally the IC's rules don't confer on the unit except where indicated in the special rules. Outflank is one of those that seems to confer.

Durandal wrote:
Yes, the Detachment special rules grant outflank, and the WGBL is a Deathwolves unit who could outflank per the detachment rule on his own. I know normally the IC's rules don't confer on the unit except where indicated in the special rules. Outflank is one of those that seems to confer.

Yeah, Outflank is one of those those rules that only require one model to have it for the whole unit to benefit, IC or original member, doesn't matter.

He would confer the Outdlank, but him joining the Wulfen makes him part of that unit, not making the Wulfen unit a Deathwolves unit.

 Brother Ramses wrote:
He would confer the Outdlank, but him joining the Wulfen makes him part of that unit, not making the Wulfen unit a Deathwolves unit.

I don't think it works that way. There is nothing in the IC rules that says a character is no longer part of a detachment just because he joins a unit from another detachment. You can put the Wyrdbane brotherhood in drop pods in Ragnar's detachment and still expect those pods to come down first turn, and the psychers can still combine their powers as called out in their formation. Likewise, an Ironwolves Land Raider can still move 12' and have the unit inside disembark even if it isn't the Wolf Guard unit that was bought with it. An IC is still a part of the Deathwolves detachment even if you attach him to another unit outside that detachment. There is nothing in the rulebook about units changing detachments mid game, its all frozen when you create a battle forged army list. You could normally put an outflanking IC with another unit and expect it to outflank, so it is logical to assume if the character has outflank+ it should confer as well.

Durandal wrote:
I don't think it works that way. There is nothing in the IC rules that says a character is no longer part of a detachment just because he joins a unit from another detachment. You can put the Wyrdbane brotherhood in drop pods in Ragnar's detachment and still expect those pods to come down first turn, and the psychers can still combine their powers as called out in their formation. Likewise, an Ironwolves Land Raider can still move 12' and have the unit inside disembark even if it isn't the Wolf Guard unit that was bought with it. An IC is still a part of the Deathwolves detachment even if you attach him to another unit outside that detachment. There is nothing in the rulebook about units changing detachments mid game, its all frozen when you create a battle forged army list. You could normally put an outflanking IC with another unit and expect it to outflank, so it is logical to assume if the character has outflank+ it should confer as well.

There are a few misconceptions here.

First is that Transports and Embarked units are one. They are not. They are completely separate. The rules the Transports get from their detachments still work on them, most of the time.

Second is how ICs and units operate. While an IC is joined to a unit, it counts as part of that unit for all rules purposes. The IC's unit identity and detachment identity are not usable while joined (but he doesn't lose those rules gained from them). As noted in what you quoted, the IC does not make the unit he joins part of HIS detachment since the Wulfen unit does not join HIM and count as part of his unit.

Charistoph wrote:

Durandal wrote:
I don't think it works that way. There is nothing in the IC rules that says a character is no longer part of a detachment just because he joins a unit from another detachment. You can put the Wyrdbane brotherhood in drop pods in Ragnar's detachment and still expect those pods to come down first turn, and the psychers can still combine their powers as called out in their formation. Likewise, an Ironwolves Land Raider can still move 12' and have the unit inside disembark even if it isn't the Wolf Guard unit that was bought with it. An IC is still a part of the Deathwolves detachment even if you attach him to another unit outside that detachment. There is nothing in the rulebook about units changing detachments mid game, its all frozen when you create a battle forged army list. You could normally put an outflanking IC with another unit and expect it to outflank, so it is logical to assume if the character has outflank+ it should confer as well.

There are a few misconceptions here.

First is that Transports and Embarked units are one. They are not. They are completely separate. The rules the Transports get from their detachments still work on them, most of the time.

Second is how ICs and units operate. While an IC is joined to a unit, it counts as part of that unit for all rules purposes. The IC's unit identity and detachment identity are not usable while joined (but he doesn't lose those rules gained from them). As noted in what you quoted, the IC does not make the unit he joins part of HIS detachment since the Wulfen unit does not join HIM and count as part of his unit.

Beat me to it.

Charistoph wrote:


First is that Transports and Embarked units are one. They are not. They are completely separate. The rules the Transports get from their detachments still work on them, most of the time.

Second is how ICs and units operate. While an IC is joined to a unit, it counts as part of that unit for all rules purposes. The IC's unit identity and detachment identity are not usable while joined (but he doesn't lose those rules gained from them). As noted in what you quoted, the IC does not make the unit he joins part of HIS detachment since the Wulfen unit does not join HIM and count as part of his unit.

There is nothing in the rules that says an IC loses his detachment identity when he joins a unit. By your logic if Ragnar or Krom join a unit outside their detachments then they lose their "furious determination/Inspirational Example" rule since they are no longer part of the detachment. Likewise, when the Rune Priests in my example join the BC packs to drop in their drop pods, they are no longer part of the Wyrdbane Brotherhood and should lose access to the Eye of the Storm.

Durandal wrote:

Charistoph wrote:


First is that Transports and Embarked units are one. They are not. They are completely separate. The rules the Transports get from their detachments still work on them, most of the time.

Second is how ICs and units operate. While an IC is joined to a unit, it counts as part of that unit for all rules purposes. The IC's unit identity and detachment identity are not usable while joined (but he doesn't lose those rules gained from them). As noted in what you quoted, the IC does not make the unit he joins part of HIS detachment since the Wulfen unit does not join HIM and count as part of his unit.

There is nothing in the rules that says an IC loses his detachment identity when he joins a unit. By your logic if Ragnar or Krom join a unit outside their detachments then they lose their "furious determination/Inspirational Example" rule since they are no longer part of the detachment. Likewise, when the Rune Priests in my example join the BC packs to drop in their drop pods, they are no longer part of the Wyrdbane Brotherhood and should lose access to the Eye of the Storm.

How did you get all that from what I said?

I said the IC's unit identity and detachment identity are not usable when joined to a unit, not that he lost them. The IC model cannot be identified as his own unit because he counts as being part of another unit, therefore not a unit of his detachment. BUT he does not lose the rules gained from his original unit identity and detachment association. Nor does the unit he joins gain HIS detachment identity.

When the unit is created all special rules listed are applied to the models in the unit. In the case of an IC, that is usually all the Special Rules listed on their datasheet and the Special Rules/Command Benefits from the detachment they come from. The IC model possesses them always (barring something else explicitly removing them).

When the IC model joins another unit, it will be operating as a model of that unit, i.e. a Ragnar model in a Blood Claw Pack unit. Ragnar will still have all the Special Rules that he had when Deployment started, whether they come from his datasheet or the Formation/Detachment he was purchased with.

The rule in question allows the UNITS from this formation to reroll their Reserve. When joined to a unit outside of this Formation, the IC is NOT recognized as a unit from this Formation, just a model from that Formation. If he was operating alone, he would be operating as a unit from this Formation so included in the Reroll and the automatic Outflanking.

"When joined to a unit outside of this Formation, the IC is NOT recognized as a unit from this Formation, just a model from that Formation"

Thats just the thing. There isn't anything in the rule book that says that other then "units are only ever part of one detachment in a battle forged army." You are house ruling it one way.

Lets take another example. I have two WGBL from two different detachments. One has Outflank and is from a Deathwolves Detachment. One has Bloodcurdling charge from a Firehowler's detachment. Prior to deployment I have the two ICs joint together in a unit.

Do they count as a Firehowlers unit, or Deathwolves? Neither?Both?

What if later on there is some added rule that gives a opponent bonus victory points for killing an IC from a Deathwolves unit. If I join that IC to another detachment, if he dies does he give up the VPs? By your rule he would not.

If I take your interpretation as correct it leads to kind of odd results like that. Conversely, if I take the assumption that a combined unit would get the appropriate benefits and drawbacks of both, it seems more logical, at least to me. I was just hoping there was some more definitive direction in another supplement or something that I had missed.

Durandal wrote:
"When joined to a unit outside of this Formation, the IC is NOT recognized as a unit from this Formation, just a model from that Formation"

Thats just the thing. There isn't anything in the rule book that says that other then "units are only ever part of one detachment in a battle forged army." You are house ruling it one way.

Incorrect. In the IC rules it states, "While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters."

If we are to take this at its word, that means the Independent Character is operationally considered as much part of the unit it joins as any model on . With no rules regarding two units in one, the IC's personal unit status cannot be used while it is joined to another unit and still count as part of the other unit.

Durandal wrote:
Lets take another example. I have two WGBL from two different detachments. One has Outflank and is from a Deathwolves Detachment. One has Bloodcurdling charge from a Firehowler's detachment. Prior to deployment I have the two ICs joint together in a unit.

Do they count as a Firehowlers unit, or Deathwolves? Neither?Both?

What if later on there is some added rule that gives a opponent bonus victory points for killing an IC from a Deathwolves unit. If I join that IC to another detachment, if he dies does he give up the VPs? By your rule he would not.

If I take your interpretation as correct it leads to kind of odd results like that. Conversely, if I take the assumption that a combined unit would get the appropriate benefits and drawbacks of both, it seems more logical, at least to me. I was just hoping there was some more definitive direction in another supplement or something that I had missed.

Most of this confusion is due to a lack of understanding of how ICs join units and the connections that are developed when this happens.

For your case, it really depends on who is considered to be joined to who. Using the rules as written, they do not join each other, but one specifically joins the other and operates another model of that unit. So, functionally you either have a WGPL unit from the Deathwolves Detachment with two WGPL models with one model having rules from the Firehowler's detachment and not Deathwolves rules, OR you have a WGPL unit from the Firehowler's detachment with two WGPL models with one model having rules from the Deathwolves Detachment and not Firehowler's rules.

I don't know why you're looking for something more exotic to address it, though.