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Greetings,

I am still in the midst of collecting and painting my first army (currently 1 tactical squad painted Blue for smurfs; everything else is unpainted). I primarily want to field terminators and dreadnoughts (with some leaders, some psych, and some tactical marines). This is based solely on what I think looks cool.

I however started second guessing myself and thinking maybe it would be better to do a Dark Angels deathwing (I have the Dark Vengeance set so that gives me more models to use - my collection is currently just the DV and Calth games, but I am going to buy more models as I finish painting). For some reason, I'm just not a big fan of bikes, not based on tactics, purely cosmetic.


Assuming I wanted to do limited or no bikes, can I still do deathwing? Is either smurfs or deathwing more powerful (winning isn't everything, but it is certainly something)?

Is there even some way to have both smurfs and deathwing in a smaller army list? This would certainly let me use all of the painted and unpainted models I have. I don't want to gimp myself though! The whole formation/detachment thing is still very confusing to me.


Thanks in advance.

matteo123 wrote:
Greetings,

I am still in the midst of collecting and painting my first army (currently 1 tactical squad painted Blue for smurfs; everything else is unpainted). I primarily want to field terminators and dreadnoughts (with some leaders, some psych, and some tactical marines). This is based solely on what I think looks cool.

I however started second guessing myself and thinking maybe it would be better to do a Dark Angels deathwing (I have the Dark Vengeance set so that gives me more models to use - my collection is currently just the DV and Calth games, but I am going to buy more models as I finish painting). For some reason, I'm just not a big fan of bikes, not based on tactics, purely cosmetic.


Assuming I wanted to do limited or no bikes, can I still do deathwing? Is either smurfs or deathwing more powerful (winning isn't everything, but it is certainly something)?

Is there even some way to have both smurfs and deathwing in a smaller army list? This would certainly let me use all of the painted and unpainted models I have. I don't want to gimp myself though! The whole formation/detachment thing is still very confusing to me.


Thanks in advance.

As a Smurf player myself, the Vanilla SM codex is a lot stronger than the DA one. Terminators in general are subpar, and DA doesn't help them out much (Deathwing is the weakest of the 3 DA army types). Dreads are about the same in both codices (although UM tactics do help them out a fair bit). And the UM tactics are GREAT for Tactical Marines with all the re-rolls you can get for them. Overall I'd say Smurfs

deathwing can certainly be done without bikes, my high end list also includes double dreadnaught for those sexual ranged weapon roles. with deathwing (unlike codex marines) terminators can be made to work but you need to treat them as a dessert unit, something that is considered mostly after your meat and potatoes your core infantry, your anti tank and anti-air, your troop transports. when youve seen to the priorities on the list then look at the terminators and decide what you want to take from them. this means they have the least workload of your army and serve more to compliment existing choices.

if you want i can copy paste my list here and explain how it works and breaks down.

Deathwing Terminators are more expensive than vanilla Terminators, but get some useful special rules in the bargain. Plus, Codex: Dark Angels has the Deathwing Strike Force formation. Also, the Dark Angels have the Lion's Blade detachment, which is very like the Gladius Strike Force, but with a less expensive auxiliary requirement.

Plus, when playing, you want to be able to shout at your opponents, "FIRST LEGION, FOOL! WHAT!" Can't do that with Ultrasmurfs!

 War Kitten wrote:

matteo123 wrote:
Greetings,

I am still in the midst of collecting and painting my first army (currently 1 tactical squad painted Blue for smurfs; everything else is unpainted). I primarily want to field terminators and dreadnoughts (with some leaders, some psych, and some tactical marines). This is based solely on what I think looks cool.

I however started second guessing myself and thinking maybe it would be better to do a Dark Angels deathwing (I have the Dark Vengeance set so that gives me more models to use - my collection is currently just the DV and Calth games, but I am going to buy more models as I finish painting). For some reason, I'm just not a big fan of bikes, not based on tactics, purely cosmetic.


Assuming I wanted to do limited or no bikes, can I still do deathwing? Is either smurfs or deathwing more powerful (winning isn't everything, but it is certainly something)?

Is there even some way to have both smurfs and deathwing in a smaller army list? This would certainly let me use all of the painted and unpainted models I have. I don't want to gimp myself though! The whole formation/detachment thing is still very confusing to me.


Thanks in advance.

As a Smurf player myself, the Vanilla SM codex is a lot stronger than the DA one. Terminators in general are subpar, and DA doesn't help them out much (Deathwing is the weakest of the 3 DA army types). Dreads are about the same in both codices (although UM tactics do help them out a fair bit). And the UM tactics are GREAT for Tactical Marines with all the re-rolls you can get for them. Overall I'd say Smurfs

UM tactics are kinda ehhhh if your going to bring terminators though. and the lack of formations for terminators also makes it hard to sit here and recommend them over dark angels for a terminator centric unit.

First Company Task Force formation can turn Vanilla terminators into DeathWing lite.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
First Company Task Force formation can turn Vanilla terminators into DeathWing lite.

yes sans deathwing knights or plasma cannons, or a command squad, or access to interromancy

Of which they require none, UM decimate DA all day, it's just their codex and options.

Ultramarines are in a solid place right now. And normally are. Terminators of all flavors are a little “meh” but can be made to work in a more casual meta.

DA might have more more fancy options, but generally pay a lot for them. And their codexes tend to be more hit or miss.

Both armies could work, and there are subtle differences between them. I do think the vanilla codex is overall more well rounded and flexible. DAs tend to be good with their specialties, but once you step outside that, the fall off fast. And if what they do is on the rise, they get to reap the benefits (Bikes are good right now, and so are revenwinig) but when they are in a bad spot, it kinda sucks (TDA in the current meta)

My advice is make Ultramarines your main army. Since you already have Dark Vengeance terminators you can paint them as Deathwing and run the Deathwing strike force alongside your Ultramarines. Then you get the best of both worlds. The Ravenwing are the strongest part of the Dark Angels codex, so if you don't like bikes I would say stick to Ultramarines with Deathwing support.

UM is the most solid choice of all Marine chapters (maybe on par with the new Sw) due access to units and to weaponry and formations.

So I am going to stick with the smurfs. Thanks for the advice.

Are terminators so bad that I shouldn't use at all, or just only use a squad or two?

Also, any recommendations on what are "essential" parts of a SM army? In other words, is there anything specific I should buy next as it is a staple?

Tactical Termies are overpriced for what they can achieve at the battle field.
However, Termies with TH/SS are still a staple if you find a way to deliver them.

matteo123 wrote:
So I am going to stick with the smurfs. Thanks for the advice.

Are terminators so bad that I shouldn't use at all, or just only use a squad or two?

Also, any recommendations on what are "essential" parts of a SM army? In other words, is there anything specific I should buy next as it is a staple?

The problem with terminators is that they are expensive, don’t put out a lot of firepower, and their main selling point, the 2+ armor save, is not what it used to be. There are just too many things in a competitive setting that blow right through it.

That said, in a more casual environment they can work. You just need to be careful with them. And should in general tighten up the rest of your list. For friendly games there is no one unit that is so bad you are just going to auto-loose just for taking it. But the more “fluffy” things you include, the harder the game is going to get, particularly if you go up against someone with a strong army.

There are as many ways to build a marine army as their are players. Probably more. Some lists are obviously more competitive then others. I would look into formations, they are a good guide. The battle demi-company is a solid, fluffy base for an army.

Things you will probably want to pick up first:
Transports. Razorbacks (better investment of your hobby dollar the rhinos) and/or drop pods. There are pros and cons to either, but you are going to want mobility for your army.
Devastator box. Right now you have a PC for the DV box (meh) and ML/HBs from BaC (MLs are very jack-of-all-trades, HBs a little overpriced for a niche roll) Picking up the Dev box will open up the world of heavy weapon choices, both as a dev squad, and as more options for your tacticals.

Depending on what direction you want to go with your army, what else to get is wide open. I’d recommend something from the FA slot. Either assault marines or a land speeder would fit well with the company formation, or if you want to go CAD, a stormtallon for air cover. I’m a firm believer in Ultramarines having something from every FOC slot to make a balanced list. I also think tac squads should be full 10 men with both a special and a heavy. I’m an old-fashioned fool like that.

Sternguard are one of the better things in the codex. The kit is packed full of extras as well. If you grab it early while still building stuff, you can cut it with some spare tactical parts to get a full 10 man squad, and in return take some of the unused parts and gussy up your sergeants throughout your army.