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So here we are in 7th edition----and CCW still pretty much cost the same despite overwatch and a general improvement in the game of shooting to kill things.......

Just a thought but maybe all CCW need to be reduced by 5 points each. This edition has better shooting than past editions, which is good from a realism perspective don't get me wrong.

However with CC being less effective perhaps a slight price drop in Close Combat weapons is warranted, and would make the CC oriented armies slightly more playable in the current edition.

Also would suggest a 5 point price drop in the plasma pistol so its more in line with the combi-weapons.

Just some thoughts on easy point cost adjustments that make sense based on the current state of the game.

Reduce to a minimum of 1 pt? or... there are some upgrades that would become standard gear

Would have to look at the specific list/item, but in general ya make them a free upgrade or a free weapon switch yes.

Im mainly aiming at Plasma Pistol--everyone knows its overpriced....and the various versions of power weapons/fists/hammers an such, or other special CCW for xenos.- when talking about 5 pt drop.

It seems to me with the current rules system being much more beneficial to usually shoot the enemy to death- esp with overwatch, interceptor, psyker powers, certain units/benefits giving even better overwatch as examples....CCW prolly need a slight point drop.

In general I think most reasonable people can see that CC oriented armies are pretty weak in the current 7th/7.5 edition game.

I'd generally agree with that as an across-the-board change. I might also vary a few costs on the basis of the unit taking them: a power sword is worth a fair bit more to a Chaos Lord or a Space Marine Captain than it is to a Sybarite or a Sister Superior, for example.

I'd be careful of free swaps when one of the items is clearly and obviously better than the other, though. Tau have this now with TL burst cannons versus SMS on Hammerheads and Skyrays - both are free, but the TL SMS is just plain better.

Elite assault units should all follow on the heels of Vanguard Vets - 5pts/model basic Power toys, 10-15pts for the likes of Power fists/claws, and at the max end, weapons with added bonuses such as Eviscerators or Thunder hammers clock in at 20pts.
Wolf Guard, Chosen, Company Vets, etc... are all horrible units currently because they're still paying the full cost of their toys.

S3 characters likewise should have a 5-10pts 'roll back' on their gear, since S3/S6 is nowhere near the level of utility that MEQ's get with S4/S8.

If I could have a Harlequin's Kiss or Embrace for 2 ppm and a Caress for 5ppm, I'd be a very happy bloke.

Yeah, an adjustment on CCW costs would be nice. I don't think Ork Power Klaws really are worth 25 points per any longer. 20 actually sounds about right.

Definitely agree with this, although I feel like my weapon options are all fairly costed as a daemons player.

20 pts for +1 str, ap2 at initiative feels right to me, and other cc oriented units should have the same costing standard for their weapons. Likewise, a balesword for 20 pts is great, and so are staves of change and axes of khorne for 10.

If anything, some of my relic weapons that were just released seem a bit expensive for what they do, but I'm still not complaining about my place in the cc gear cost spectrum.

However when I open my marine playing friend's codices and try and write a list, sometimes I shake my head. The increase from 10 points to 30 for an axe of khorne is one of the major reasons I only farted around with KDK once.

 Yarium wrote:
Yeah, an adjustment on CCW costs would be nice. I don't think Ork Power Klaws really are worth 25 points per any longer. 20 actually sounds about right.

I actually think 15, i mean Power Fists and Klaws already pay for the perk of chucking x2 Strength, they go last. Ok so the Axe loses its job as "cheap power fist alternative" so make it go at I2 and make the Power Fist/Klaw AP 1. There done.

it wont change much the game still favour shooting over cc, if you dont address the shooting and stabbing imbalance all the points adjustments in the world wont matter, you could make melee weapon upgrades totally free and it wont change the fact that they wont ever get used

well if they are free then you can spend those point on other things like another squad. if you have another squad thats another target to draw fire. Another unit to detract shooting means that a unit may break through the wall of bullets and actually hit its mark.


I would be so game, to have it like in 4th when units could consolidate/ massacre roll into another unit and maintain in combat status.

 ionusx wrote:
it wont change much the game still favour shooting over cc, if you dont address the shooting and stabbing imbalance all the points adjustments in the world wont matter, you could make melee weapon upgrades totally free and it wont change the fact that they wont ever get used

What even is the cause of this imbalance? Cuz its not Overwatch by itself, though that isnt helping.

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
Definitely agree with this, although I feel like my weapon options are all fairly costed as a daemons player.

20 pts for +1 str, ap2 at initiative feels right to me, and other cc oriented units should have the same costing standard for their weapons. Likewise, a balesword for 20 pts is great, and so are staves of change and axes of khorne for 10.

If anything, some of my relic weapons that were just released seem a bit expensive for what they do, but I'm still not complaining about my place in the cc gear cost spectrum.

However when I open my marine playing friend's codices and try and write a list, sometimes I shake my head. The increase from 10 points to 30 for an axe of khorne is one of the major reasons I only farted around with KDK once.

Actually, I feel dirty that our Staff of change is only 10pts... For a LoC it really *should* be more like 20-25pts, since it pushes him to that magical S8 & he still swings at initiative to boot.
Add in Divination (god forbid you land Precog), and it's just not fair what that rank is easily capable of!

I've had him literally solo an entire CSM army just by himself!
Granted it was CSM's, but still, my friend I playing against wasn't exactly using a terrible list, as he did have a Heltrukey, Oblits, MoK ccw Marines, Autocannon Havocs, a pair of Sorcs... The LoC only 'died' in the end to his own Boomstick. With Precog up all game long, my opponent only inflicted 2 measly wounds - the rest of the damage was my own horrible luck between an early DI test due to the Warpstorm table, and then Boomstick hilarity.

Yeah, I hear you on the staff. 10 pts is a steal for a LOC, the staff is godlike. Especially back when the codex was written and you could switch flight modes and charge in the same turn...

I feel like it would be a fairly appropriate cost if one doesn't factor in the added durability you can give him by means other than himself as well as precog.

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
Yeah, I hear you on the staff. 10 pts is a steal for a LOC, the staff is godlike. Especially back when the codex was written and you could switch flight modes and charge in the same turn...

I feel like it would be a fairly appropriate cost if one doesn't factor in the added durability you can give him by means other than himself as well as precog.

I will however say in my defense for using him, the mental image of a giant chicken taking golf swings at every marine he can reach is hilarious as hell - Foooooooor!

It seems fair for most, but not all, close combat weapons to receive a point decrease. They need to be cheaper because they are harder to use effectively. Range is an important factor in 40k, and close combat weapons have the shortest range of all. This makes them less versatile tactically even if they are quite strong once they actually manage to find their way into a situation where they can be useful.

 btgrimaldus wrote:
I would be so game, to have it like in 4th when units could consolidate/ massacre roll into another unit and maintain in combat status.

Basically you want the game to be broken towards your prefence, gotcha

 Bobthehero wrote:

 btgrimaldus wrote:
I would be so game, to have it like in 4th when units could consolidate/ massacre roll into another unit and maintain in combat status.

Basically you want the game to be broken towards your prefence, gotcha

That's a great argument you have there.

Just pointing it out, not arguing about anything, couldn't care less about melee combat.

 Grimmor wrote:

 ionusx wrote:
it wont change much the game still favour shooting over cc, if you dont address the shooting and stabbing imbalance all the points adjustments in the world wont matter, you could make melee weapon upgrades totally free and it wont change the fact that they wont ever get used

What even is the cause of this imbalance? Cuz its not Overwatch by itself, though that isnt helping.

its the arms race of shooting and shooting machanics. their handing out ignores cover and twin linked and shred and tank hunter/monster hunter like candy. grav guns have replaced every special weapons choice for space marines, weapons strength has run out of control and units have obtained some silly ranged weapons options like jetbikes with scatter lasers and star cannons getting boosted, and orbital bombardment plates, and strength d guns in the game, and giant gargantuan creatures and superheavy walkers. CC was rendered irrelevant when they sold the games balance and soul for the sake of the immortal dollar. this has gotten to the point that in many matchups if your cc units arent loaded with gimmicks like the shadowstrike killteam you will never get your points back. its why smashfucker has been abandoned by so many armies have ridiculous things like eternal warrior in their fething relics table for 15 points. i havent even begun discussing the helturkey or the flyrant issues weve had for 2 editions with their armies leaning on them like crutches because cc is so god awful as well as hording and short ranging.

this is why bikes armies have become so prevelant in marine forces (or thunderwolf if your a wolf).

people complain that terminators suck and need stat changes and points adjustment. no they need cc to work, they need cc to be a real and legitimate source of combat damage for basic units without the need of tax units or ridiculous rules packages. the game needs a serious and permanent threat. as extreme as a solution as it might sound i suggest that ork kommandos be allowed to infiltrate beyond normal rules limitations AND still charge to cc. or that tyranids are allowed to deploy from the midline a serious and hard edged one army feth you to shooting forces that forces you to bring a more wholesome army or at least one that has considered the possibility of your units locking in close quarters. as it stands its so far from peoples mind that unless your getting it for free nobody would bother with a CC upgrade and even then its doubtful ud ever see it used (which is why for example tau never bother with bonding ritual knife unless they run FSE, or why assault marines have become a mule for flamers (or raptors and there meltas), its why terminators and nobz absolute suck. there cc phase unit in a shooting phase world.

honestly it makes me wonder why games workshop bothers printing the whole fething section of the book on cc anymore. i have a story and id like to share it. i was out of town playing at an FLGS in another city against a guy who claimed to have been playing for about a year. he plays tau and through a series of misfortunes and a well made maneuvering on my part i had managed to CC a riptide with veterans with two power fists in there lot. this guy actually had to go look up the rules for cc entirely in the BRB because for the entire year hed never once been charged and had someone get there to fight him with their fists. he honestly didnt know how a monstrous creature fought in cc. granted this is tau and playing for a year isnt an indicator of how many games within that year, but this is irrelevant; a player with some experience had to look up what was once such an important part of the army book that is now virtually worthless. this is the state our game is in and its only going to get worse the further they kick this ball down the road.

if i was to fix the game somehow id start with a serious re-examination of cc and getting to it and how each army manages that and what they do in it, i would lock back up the pandoras box of apocalypse units and superheavies/gargantuans. and id do some serious rebalancing to ranged weapons gutting units of a lot of their shooting buffs via formations, or just ones theyve gained natively over the years. but that last one would probably only occur if i totally went back to the drawing board on CC and determined that it would still be out of whack.

 Bobthehero wrote:
Just pointing it out, not arguing about anything, couldn't care less about melee combat.

You made a strawman. That's not "pointing it out", it's dishonest.

So seems most are in agreement that most armies pay to much for most CCW.

There are a couple good buys out there and I don't disagree but in general you pay a lot of points for a weapon most games you will never get to use.

Thus as a general statement for all effects CCW are much less effective in actual gameplay than their point values suggest.

Would seem most are in agreement as well that 5 pt drop for most CCW would be a good/better fit for overall play balance.

To me this isn't a huge change to anything but it does slowly add up, end result is over an entire squad or unit you might get an extra figure or an extra squad of troops in an army that uses CC as one of its main attack methods.

An yes the Khorne army to me is kind of a joke Ive watched it lose every single game Ive seen one played due to it being CC and how horrible CC is in the game. Maybe 1 extra squad might help, to me anything that helps give CC armies some more teeth would be good for the game in general/force balance.

chaos45 wrote:
An yes the Khorne army to me is kind of a joke Ive watched it lose every single game Ive seen one played due to it being CC and how horrible CC is in the game. Maybe 1 extra squad might help, to me anything that helps give CC armies some more teeth would be good for the game in general/force balance.

The Axe of Khorne needs a points drop, mostly cuz the Wolves have that stupid Frost Axe thats AP 2 AND +3 Strength and its significantly cheaper than the Axe of Khorne. Id say 20 points is fair for AP 2 at Initiative with Instant Death on a 6.

Also i've seen KDK work fine, it happened to be a Crimson Tide style list (so a feth ton of Bloodletters) so im sure that says something.

Am I missing something? Since when is cc useless? I myself play Daemons with knight detachment and a friend of mine plays orks. He has almost no shooting capabilities and I only have a pie plate. Neither of us have ever lost a game with our 7ed lists (besides me tabling him once). Our cc armies are nearly unstoppable. Recently I played a tau player at 750pts, granted I was using an exceptionally cheesy nurgle prince/knight combo, and I tabled him without taking a casualty. And this was an experienced player.

Yes certain units have lost some bite but others strike fear into the hearts of your opponents. Who says deep striking terminators with chainfists behind a line of lemon russes won't make any guard player gak themselves?

Rolling back the cost of the weapons would help, but isn't the only problem with CC right now.

Random ranges, lack of good delivery systems (Assault Transports or assault out of deepstrike), and having absolutely no idea how to deal with assaulters with no AP are the primary problems.

 mrhappyface wrote:
Am I missing something? Since when is cc useless? I myself play Daemons with knight detachment and a friend of mine plays orks. He has almost no shooting capabilities and I only have a pie plate. Neither of us have ever lost a game with our 7ed lists (besides me tabling him once). Our cc armies are nearly unstoppable. Recently I played a tau player at 750pts, granted I was using an exceptionally cheesy nurgle prince/knight combo, and I tabled him without taking a casualty. And this was an experienced player.

Yes certain units have lost some bite but others strike fear into the hearts of your opponents. Who says deep striking terminators with chainfists behind a line of lemon russes won't make any guard player gak themselves?

CC was made useless when they published lists that can table other lists before they reach CC.

Terminators are bad, as are Russ tanks.

instead of dropping points cost, what about changing the unwieldy rule, so that it is at -2 initiative rather then making you swing at I 1? and droping it from some weapons that don't need it like power axes and such? I think thats the only change i would really make to weapons, points wise i don't think most are bad, and i don't think that is really whats wrong with CC. Because honestly if i take a power weapon for five points it really doesn't matter if i have no way to get that unit in before they die anyway. cus it just feels bad when you take CCW's and then don't get to swing with them cus you die in overwatch and then your opponent still gets to attack first.

 ionusx wrote:


if i was to fix the game somehow id start with a serious re-examination of cc and getting to it and how each army manages that and what they do in it, i would lock back up the pandoras box of apocalypse units and superheavies/gargantuans. and id do some serious rebalancing to ranged weapons gutting units of a lot of their shooting buffs via formations, or just ones theyve gained natively over the years. but that last one would probably only occur if i totally went back to the drawing board on CC and determined that it would still be out of whack.

Even with all those needs to shooting, what is the point of cc when people don't use things you can realistically cc? Stuff mostly moves 12" with a JSJ and is often either t6 or a vehicle. I think you have to buff the basic guardians with heavy weapon or tactical with heavy weapon before you can bother trying to use cc.

 mrhappyface wrote:
Am I missing something? Since when is cc useless? I myself play Daemons with knight detachment and a friend of mine plays orks. He has almost no shooting capabilities and I only have a pie plate. Neither of us have ever lost a game with our 7ed lists (besides me tabling him once). Our cc armies are nearly unstoppable. Recently I played a tau player at 750pts, granted I was using an exceptionally cheesy nurgle prince/knight combo, and I tabled him without taking a casualty. And this was an experienced player.

Yes certain units have lost some bite but others strike fear into the hearts of your opponents. Who says deep striking terminators with chainfists behind a line of lemon russes won't make any guard player gak themselves?

Go look at the LVO results and tell me assault is any way equal to the other phases. If your not Deathstar/GMC/MC assault is a pipe dream compared to 5th.

Assault is dead because of TLOS.