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I'm just getting back into 40K now. I haven't played in a long time (5th(?) edition) and am a bit rusty, so please feel free to correct any incorrect assumptions I have.

I was thinking about using Swooping Hawks with an Exarch to pull off no-scatter deep strike shenanigans against weakly-guarded objectives. However, I can't think how this would be effective as my usual opponents play Space Marines.

After the initial large blast grenade pack (1 in 6 kill of T4/3+ models in 5" blast with a -6" scatter; not too bad), in each shooting phase five hawks & an Exarch with either improved gun will kill about two space marines on average, but must be absolutely sure to avoid any chance whatsoever of getting charged.

So it seems like the only practical use for Swooping Hawks vs. Space Marines is to find a smaller Tac squad holding a remote objective, cream them with the grenade pack, and then attrit them with the flashlights. But that unit is at 121 points with the Sunrifle -- it has to be 6 models for the large blast grenade pack -- which probably already takes it out of simple harassment points territory. Interceptor and haywire grenades are the only other real benefits that come to mind.

It seems like 5 Warp Spiders (including an Exarch with a Spinneret Rifle for killing power, costing me 120 points) would do the job almost as well but have a lot more usefulness & potential survivability -- trading perfect deep strikes for warp packs, monofilament weapons, hit & run, and flickerjump. The unit might take an extra turn or two to get where it's needed, but it'll kill Space Marines faster, be safer, and represent an actual threat on the table.

I really like both the idea of and look of Swooping Hawks, but against a high save/high toughness army like Space Marines they just seem like a suboptimal choice (or worse) for any purpose. Am I missing something? Any ideas on making them work vs. Space Marines in any role?

You can use their Haywire grenades against vehicles instead of using them against Marine infantry.

Also using their special rule to fly over flyers to get a haywire attack against them. I think the Hawks talon is generally better against marines because of its higher strength and the fact you can't guarantee that the marines won't be in cover reducing the effectiveness of the ap 3 on the sunrifle

Eldar Shortseer wrote:
I was thinking about using Swooping Hawks with an Exarch to pull off no-scatter deep strike shenanigans against weakly-guarded objectives. However, I can't think how this would be effective as my usual opponents play Space Marines.

Hawks are best vs GEQ or other lightly armored units. I've had one 10 man squad evaporate a 40 man guard blob before in a single round of shooting.

They are also hell on heels vs anything with armor, including imperial knights. Since each one has a haywire gernade with an 18" move, that's a huge threat area for anything armored.

They are still OK vs MEQ, with 3 shots each at 24". Last night I had a 10 man squad gun down assault marines with good success. I picked off 4, which is a little above average.
(5/6 to hit) * (1/3 to wound) * (1/3 failed save) * 30 shots = 150/56 or ~2.67 MEQ dead.

If you have the spare 10 points, the sunrifle is a nice upgrade, but it's not going to 'turn the tide' and make them awesome vs MEQ.

Eldar Shortseer wrote:
It seems like 5 Warp Spiders (including an Exarch with a Spinneret Rifle for killing power, costing me 120 points) would do the job almost as well but have a lot more usefulness & potential survivability -- trading perfect deep strikes for warp packs, monofilament weapons, hit & run, and flickerjump. The unit might take an extra turn or two to get where it's needed, but it'll kill Space Marines faster, be safer, and represent an actual threat on the table.

Warp Spiders are really effective, and are true 'marine killing machines' -- especially in the aspect host formation.

Leave the Spinneret Rifle at home. Not only does it lower their average damage per point. There are just better places to put those points.
*edited*

In summary, Hawks are amazing units now -- best against GEQ and Armor. Spiders are best vs MEQ, MCs, and light armor.

 labmouse42 wrote:
Leave the Spinneret Rifle at home. Not only does it lower their average damage per point, it also means you can't assault since it's rapid fire. Yes, there are times you will want to assault - like if there is just one marine left on an objective and you have 10 spiders..

I could be wrong but aren't spiders Jet pack units that make them relentless? So the rapid fire isn't a detriment unless you don't get the 2 shots. Also I understand where people are coming from but every time someone uses that "damage per point" argument it really bugs me. That 15 points can't get you another spider, so unless you want to add models to your guardian, dire avenger, banshee, or ranger squad the 15 points isn't doing anything else in your army. Sure take 7+ squads with exarchs and don't take any upgrades on them you can afford another squad of spiders but if you take one aspect host then you aren't going to be able to spend the points on much of anything.

Thanks for all the input! I agree -- Hawks are a great value for their ability to slaughter wimpier units. It's Marines/MEQs that are posing the problem. Finally, I hope I'm not sounding argumentative -- I'm just trying to understand if there's anything I missed (like the Rapid Fire/Relentless combo).

 Korlandril wrote:
You can use their Haywire grenades against vehicles instead of using them against Marine infantry...Also using their special rule to fly over flyers to get a haywire attack against them. I think the Hawks talon is generally better against marines because of its higher strength and the fact you can't guarantee that the marines won't be in cover reducing the effectiveness of the ap 3 on the sunrifle

A unit can only use one grenade per phase. So against a 3HP vehicle and no other Eldar units around (an assumption based on using the Hawks as back-rank marauders), that alone would be mediocre. However, the anti-flyer move is indeed great (each model hits with Haywire on 4+? Yes please!). So maybe a good secondary role for the unit.

Assuming 5+ cover, Hawk's Talon and Sunrifle are the same vs. MEQs (Hawk's Talon: S5/AP5 = 2/3 to wound * 1/3 failed save = 2/9 or 22% for unsaved wound on hit. Sunrifle: S3/AP3 = 1/3 to wound * 2/3 failed cover save = 2/9). Is the Sunrifle worth 5 points more than the Hawk's Talon (for the 33% blind and improved kill rate if no cover save is available)? Probably. Of course, vs. Terminators or invulnerable saves, the Hawk's Talon is a little better, but the Hawks probably shouldn't be engaging that sort of target.

 labmouse42 wrote:
If you have the spare 10 points, the sunrifle is a nice upgrade, but it's not going to 'turn the tide' and make them awesome vs MEQ.

I agree that it's not a game-changer, but the Sun Rifle is +15 points and kills twice as many MEQs on average as the Lasblaster (2/9 vs. 1/9 kills per hit), plus the blind. On the other hand, 16 points gets a new Swooping Hawk, so keeping the Lasblaster and adding a model would effectively trade the blind for one more model (and about the same kill ratio because both the Exarch and the extra model would get 1/9 kills per hit, as opposed to the Exarch alone getting 2/9; plus the Exarch's BS of 6 is only a +2.7% to hit). That might be worth it considering the blind requires a 5+ vs. MEQs to work (but is very effective when it does). And in any case my thought was a lower-cost harassment unit, so keeping it at 6 models and a Lasblaster might be the best route.

So unless I want some harassment ability with decent anti-flyer power, it sounds like I leave the pigeons at home and bring something else. Maybe attach Baharroth to a unit of Warp Spiders to get a precise deep strike? That doesn't cost much, right?


About the non-Hawks stuff:

 labmouse42 wrote:
Leave the Spinneret Rifle at home. Not only does it lower their average damage per point, it also means you can't assault since it's rapid fire. Yes, there are times you will want to assault - like if there is just one marine left on an objective and you have 10 spiders.

I forgot about the no-assault with Rapid Fire, but also forgot about Relentless from the Warp packs, so it's even on my part. (Told you I was a nub.) Because of the Spinneret Rifle's AP1, assuming no cover and too far to Rapid fire, I still get 0.72 kills for 1 Rifle shot vs. 0.67 for 2 spinner shots. With a 9" rapid-fire bonus vs. 12" deathspinner range, I'll assume Rapid fire 1/2 the time for 1.08 kills on average, or a +50% increase over the death spinner, plus some anti-Terminator effectiveness. Now, is +30% kill rate vs. +50% unit cost worth 15 points vs. 19 points for another Warp Spider? Probably not with BS 5 & 6 units.

Kaela_Mensha_Khaine wrote:
Also I understand where people are coming from but every time someone uses that "damage per point" argument it really bugs me. That 15 points can't get you another spider...

Just my rusty & nubby 2 cents, but the point might not have been about whether 15 points are worth it in isolation, but more along the lines of looking for bloat throughout your army. I got taught this lesson a bunch of times when I first played; I could never figure out why my highly-equipped units with all the upgrades would lose to a larger army with worse equipment. Now I question every add-on and ask, "do these points either make the unit more effective in proportion to their cost or fill a void I need filled?" If not, I should look to spend them elsewhere. 5 points for a Banshee Mask on a non-sniper Autarch? Almost always, especially if attached to a unit. 20 points for powerblades for a Warp Spider Exarch? Probably not.

Kaela_Mensha_Khaine wrote:
I could be wrong but aren't spiders Jet pack units that make them relentless? So the rapid fire isn't a detriment unless you don't get the 2 shots.

You are correct. I'll edit my post. Thanks for the catch.

Kaela_Mensha_Khaine wrote:
Also I understand where people are coming from but every time someone uses that "damage per point" argument it really bugs me...... you aren't going to be able to spend the points on much of anything.

You could spend the points on wargear for your IC. You could spend the points on a vehicle upgrade. The points don't have to go back into a squad.
Also, you can juggle the sizes of squads. Sure, 15 points won't get you another spider, but you might be able to lose another avenger and get another spider. That's why I often run squads of 6,6,7 spiders. It's like tetris with points.

The reason for the idea of "damage per point" and "resilience per point" is to help illustrate the overall effectiveness of a unit. When player skill is equal, units that are more effective give an edge in the game.
For players trying to eek out that last little bit of effectiveness, such concepts can be very useful. When there is prize support on the line, that's even moreso.

Eldar Shortseer wrote:
]A unit can only use one grenade per phase. So against a 3HP vehicle and no other Eldar units around (an assumption based on using the Hawks as back-rank marauders), that alone would be mediocre. However, the anti-flyer move is indeed great (each model hits with Haywire on 4+? Yes please!). So maybe a good secondary role for the unit.

A unit can only throw one grenade a turn in the assault phase. Every model in the unit can use them in assault, but you only get 1 attack. Since 5/6 of the hits will cause a glancing hit, a unit of 10 hawks is extremely deadly to anything with an armor value.

Eldar Shortseer wrote:
So unless I want some harassment ability with decent anti-flyer power, it sounds like I leave the pigeons at home

Why not bring both? My usual ratio of hawks to spiders is 2 to 3. Your meta might be mostly MEQ now, but you will find that one guy who plays 'nids, and when you do hawks will be your star player. You will find times when you face imperial knights, and hawks planting 5 haywire grenades on the thing before it can move will be invaluable.

 labmouse42 wrote:
Now, is +30% kill rate vs. +50% unit cost worth 15 points vs. 19 points for another Warp Spider? Probably not with BS 5 & 6 units.

Normally I like to go with more bodies over more bling -- with the exception of exarchs, which are amazing buys due to the W2.
Another body you get another wound in addition to another shot. Exarchs give you the extra 'wound' in addition to additional special rules.

This is my current ITC list, and it's treated me very well thus far.

I feel like maxed out units of Hawks probably isn't the best way to use them simply because they're so squishy, so you don't want to overcommit. I'm a big fan of the 6-man squad, because they're so versatile. Sure their flashlights might only kill 1-2 MEQs a turn, but they exude a 18" range control zone against flyers, who they have a very good chance of outright bringing down a 3 HP flyer on a single turn. Against anything with an armour value, a BS5 grenade followed by 6 Haywires in assault has a good chance to knock out even a full HP Land Raider. Plus, they'll shred any GEQ infantry with lasblasters and don't forget, you can always throw that plasma grenade too.

If you upgrade them with a Sunrifle, do not forget that Blind. Against Necrons, it's devastating, and Space Marines will fail 1/3 of the time. If you shoot every turn, that's 2 turns out of 6 on average in a game those Grav Centurions or whatever will be stuck at BS1.

I agree, 6 man squads are better if you can swing it.
That's a good general rule for most, if not all, aspect squads.