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Hi im a new member (and a new 40ker) So when i say clueless i mean i have no idea how to craft the combination i want (dark angels main army (w/ warhound titan) + skitarii ally). Maybe i might seem lazy but im just really lost. I dont want to buy the codexes (or the armies) yet so i was hoping somebody can help me.

Heres my vision for my dream army:
-Non competitive, non cheezy
-Dark angels: want some ravenwing bikes, deathwing termies and monk knights.
-want myself a warhound titan in the main detatchment.
-Skitarii: want rangers, vanguard, and a dunecrawler. If i can afford the ironstriders that be grand.

Nothing is written in stone! (except the titan) so im open to suggestion. If this sounds unrealistic or simply too vague please tell me!

-I play against DA's a lot, mostly bike stars, they can be really gross raven wing bikes are really good, I know you said you don't want to be competitive and cheese but if you want them anyway then hard to avoid with them. add a dark shroud if you want to give them good survivability, just keep them at range and don't get caught in CC unless you know you can kill what your attacking.
- I know little about Deathwing, other then they are termites, and unless you are DS them and get lucky, or bringing them in a land raider, which makes them an expensive unit, they are really tough to be worth while. But that's my experience, I know the more elite ones look sweet, but don't know how "good" they are. I love termites but I always end up frustrated.
-I would say that with a warhound you are guna have a hard time not keeping it "competitive" or "cheese" that thing will wreck an army by its self. Most of its weapons will blast even tough units off the board, plus stomps ext, and a lot of points, Not sure how many points you are playing at.. hard to make a suggestion if the warhound is a auto include.
-I don't know much about Skitarii so i got no help for you there.

the titan is an expensive model to get your hands on, even bying it from counterfeiters is a huge spending spree of money. the warhound is probably a model id add after youve gotten the rest locked down, heres how id probably make it happen for yourself:

skitarii dominus maniple (this is a formation you can get inside the get started skitari box set, the boxes contents are the formation), build it up as vanguards with their carbines (the shorter rifles) and then double plasma caliver or double arc rifles, skip the arbeques and the upgrades for the squad commander can largely be ignored unless you have points leftover for a phosphor blaster or something.

dark angels CAD, build for covering all your bases (anti-tank, anti-horde, anti-heavy infantry, anti-air, etc.), the skitari will assist in covering your end of the anti-infantry its where there specialities lie

ravenwing attack squadron (some bikes and a land speeder), they will primarily be used to drop in the deathwing, use them after that as a source of anti tank via meltas

if the games are large enough adjust the CAD to be more infantry and transport focused and less resource intensive on utility and then add in the warhound hes a one man wrecking crew he can handle most of your stuff ground based like anti-tank or anti-heavy infantry. elevate to reaver or warlord as you deem necissary.

this is however a perfect storm of sorts. the reality is that terminators are a unit that need a lot of love to make work and by love i mean points, 3 squads, of them, a land raider, and a terminator hq are about enough to cover those bases but thats a huge investment like nearing 900 points by itself, the rest of the army needs to be accounted for. if the warhound finds room its at 2500p if not higher. if it starts to go too high the number of people wanting to play such a list will be small. so somewhere ud need to make cuts.

i argue that if you want the hound the terminators will probably end up needing the boot, and thats to keep things functional and working properly, you could even divert points towards other fun units. or you could drop one of the factions entirely and use it to cover some of the bases in their absence like the skitarii who dont bring much to the table beyond some quality anti-infantry and anti-air

Thanks a bunch, TI wasn't expecting such fast replies!

When I said non competitive non cheesy i'm basically saying I looking to make a fun army, but yeah I dont want to scare my friends away from playing games :/

Money is no object! (although it is...) as this is set out to be an army i plan on building long term, but realistically its true I dont plan on acquiring a war hound any time soon, it's more of a euphoric dream to just have one on my shelf.

for the termies I was thinking of drop podding them but I'm not quite sure if that would be a plausible tactic...?

So what I'm getting from this is that the warhound lathers my list in cheese and consumes too many points, Would removing the Warhound solve all of my problems? or is there still some compensation. that needs to be made with my DA/Skitarii Combo that I want to create?

Well the warhound is more a monster points cost, i don't even know how much they cost points wise off the top of my head, but they are basicly a full army of points to themselves. It all really comes down to how big of games you are playing, i would agree with you that they are cool and would be awesome to walk around the table. Just extremely hard to deal with unless someone is coming prepared for that, and if they are, that means they have to build a list to deal with it, which tends to make the game competitive my nature.

Any list you want to run is almost entirely as "fun" as you make it. I would say just don't get to abusive on the "unkillable deathstars' and you will be fine. If your friends play "fun" lists then you can basically bring what you want, the really "strong" stuff is your formations based off your bikes, and the flyers i know always hurt when they come in. That's what i have to deal with a lot, I would say with DA you want to pick a theme and build from there, if you want more foot slog, or "troop" based games then maybe go with termies,with either landraiders or deepstriking. If you want a very mobile army, look at the bikes and landspeeder formations. (i dont remember the names of the formations)

A warhound titan is just under 500 USD after weapons before taxes and shipping. (Not to mention the additional imperial armor book)

It is also 720 points which will be half or more of your entire army at most point levels.

I honestly wouldn't even want to play if someone brought a titan outside of a massive apoc game.

May I suggest an Imperial knight instead. much more reasonably priced money and point wise. would be much more friendly/non cheesy.

The new start collecting box for skitarii is a great deal if you are interested in a nice little formation, or just to save some money on some vanguard and a dunecrawler.

The Ironstriders are OK from a play perspective, the dragoons are superior in almost everyday. .

Also the dark vengeance set contains the DA bikers and terminators, you can usually find them on Ebay for a decent price. Also the DA dark vengence expansion set has the better termies(knights) and better bikers (black knights) and a flier for some cool models as you expand your army.

Dyslexican32 wrote:
Well the warhound is more a monster points cost, i don't even know how much they cost points wise off the top of my head, but they are basicly a full army of points to themselves. It all really comes down to how big of games you are playing, i would agree with you that they are cool and would be awesome to walk around the table. Just extremely hard to deal with unless someone is coming prepared for that, and if they are, that means they have to build a list to deal with it, which tends to make the game competitive my nature.

Any list you want to run is almost entirely as "fun" as you make it. I would say just don't get to abusive on the "unkillable deathstars' and you will be fine. If your friends play "fun" lists then you can basically bring what you want, the really "strong" stuff is your formations based off your bikes, and the flyers i know always hurt when they come in. That's what i have to deal with a lot, I would say with DA you want to pick a theme and build from there, if you want more foot slog, or "troop" based games then maybe go with termies,with either landraiders or deepstriking. If you want a very mobile army, look at the bikes and landspeeder formations. (i dont remember the names of the formations)

a warhound is 750 base before weapons upgrades, the reaver is 900, and the warlord is a bathtub of 1250


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 kalculations wrote:
Thanks a bunch, TI wasn't expecting such fast replies!

When I said non competitive non cheesy i'm basically saying I looking to make a fun army, but yeah I dont want to scare my friends away from playing games :/

Money is no object! (although it is...) as this is set out to be an army i plan on building long term, but realistically its true I dont plan on acquiring a war hound any time soon, it's more of a euphoric dream to just have one on my shelf.

for the termies I was thinking of drop podding them but I'm not quite sure if that would be a plausible tactic...?

So what I'm getting from this is that the warhound lathers my list in cheese and consumes too many points, Would removing the Warhound solve all of my problems? or is there still some compensation. that needs to be made with my DA/Skitarii Combo that I want to create?

you can take him he doesnt cover it in cheese its just that well he cant do everything hes not THAT good. and if you cram him into a list too small your setting yourself up to lose potential friends, if you make the list too big not everyone will want to play because north of 2500 is uncharted territory for many people in the community not used to apocalypse sized games. id probably start with trying to get an imperial knight into the list first and then if he fits well and you feel you can stomach the price tag the warhound simply tags him out if the points allow for it

terminators dude just run the redemption force or strikeforce and call them on down via teleport, with the ravenwing and maybe some scouts in the force you can reduce scatter to friendly units and make them a lot easier to manage. drop pods are unecissary.

if you want i could draft up a list fairly half hazardly and see how you feel about it, this is simply what id do, id start with the skitarii or the dark angels as the force you build first and then bring your other pieces togeather on top of them, naturally these lists are totally up to you this is just how i would manipulate things and hammer them out, granted i dont own the current imperial knight dex only the older one so if someone wants to help me hammer that part out i can go the rest of the way.

Than you ionusx, that is very detailed aand ill definetly use some of your suggestions in my build. Thanks Tenzilla that is very helpful, i was planning on buying the skitarii starter set sometime this month, im very excited!Yes dyslexican that would be amazing!! I want to focus on the DA and then fit in some skitarii however they would work best. And yea Ignore the warhound, it giving me a bit of grief but i dont need it :((

heres how id do it, a star denotes something ill cover as a footnote later:

skitarii domus maniple (335):

tech priest domus, phosphor serpenta(110)*

skitarii rangers 1x10 (120)

onager with icarus arrary (125)

dark angels CAD:

hq:

librarian, level 2, shroud of heroes, combat shield (105)

troops:

1x10 tactical marines, plasma gun, combi grav, multimelta drop pod (210)

1x5 scouts, bolters, heavy bolter with hellfire shells (68)

fast:

dark talon (160)

elite:

ven dread, lascannon (140)

1x9 veterans, drop pod, 2 veterans with storm shields and lightning claws, everyone else bolters or bolt pistol + chainsword, 1 grav gun (292)

heavy:

1x5 devestators, 2 lascannons, 2 missiles, cherub (145)

lord of war:

imperial knight freeblade (errant) with thermal cannon (370)

okay so what we have here is your classic micheal bay style list by that i mean its covered in big angry lasers, and big ugly explosions and some angry short ranged shooting of small arms

the dominus maniple is here as a ranged answer to enemy planes if you can scarf the points for it somewhere get their rainment of the mechano marytr i dont know how many points it is but it will improve them noticeably. if there are no air targets shift to shooting ground targets, the onager can still fight but at reduced effectiveness

the dark angels are the backbones of the force and make up its bulk, the tacticals, and scouts and veterans make up the front of the army closest to the enemy, they will with the knight act as a screen, the scouts should be near a table edge on deployment and ride that table edge to keep them out of the way, treat them as opportunity units pouncing on people when the opportunity presents itself, the heavy bolter is if someone moves to try and take them out from close distance, it can also add to their firepower against a more stationary target such as someones inside a ruin or behind a wall.

the devestators and dreadnaught work in the buddy system blasting from afar and making things easier to digest for the guys closer to the enemy, the ven dread retains his fist arm instead of going double ranged so he can answer a drop pod unit or a unit thats moved to try and cc the devestators

in a perfect world you use the imperial knight to soak fire from the enemy as well as step on his heavier targets and monsters. he can take a lot of punishment from an unprepared foe and he can hand it out, the thermal cannon can eat heavy infantry as well like meganobz or obliterators. in a perfect world the veterans with librarians drop in behind him so he acts as a screen, they bail him out of a cc attempt should he get into one, if not there mainly to support the librarian and act as ablative wounds try and keep the claw guys with shields upfront at all times so they are first to take wounds from shooting

the dark talon is here to mop up units, treat him as a giant flying vaccum from which nothing ever returns try and use his rift cannon as much as possible and save the time bomb for emergencies, the heavy bolters arent really useful on him but there available if you want them, since you have the maniple he shouldnt have to worry about air threats

 ionusx wrote:
heres how id do it, a star denotes something ill cover as a footnote later:

skitarii domus maniple (335):

tech priest domus, phosphor serpenta(110)*

skitarii rangers 1x10 (120)

onager with icarus arrary (125)

dark angels CAD:

hq:

librarian, level 2, shroud of heroes, combat shield (105)

troops:

1x10 tactical marines, plasma gun, combi grav, multimelta drop pod (210)

1x5 scouts, bolters, heavy bolter with hellfire shells (68)

fast:

dark talon (160)

elite:

ven dread, lascannon (140)

1x9 veterans, drop pod, 2 veterans with storm shields and lightning claws, everyone else bolters or bolt pistol + chainsword, 1 grav gun (292)

heavy:

1x5 devestators, 2 lascannons, 2 missiles, cherub (145)

lord of war:

imperial knight freeblade (errant) with thermal cannon (370)

okay so what we have here is your classic micheal bay style list by that i mean its covered in big angry lasers, and big ugly explosions and some angry short ranged shooting of small arms

the dominus maniple is here as a ranged answer to enemy planes if you can scarf the points for it somewhere get their rainment of the mechano marytr i dont know how many points it is but it will improve them noticeably. if there are no air targets shift to shooting ground targets, the onager can still fight but at reduced effectiveness

the dark angels are the backbones of the force and make up its bulk, the tacticals, and scouts and veterans make up the front of the army closest to the enemy, they will with the knight act as a screen, the scouts should be near a table edge on deployment and ride that table edge to keep them out of the way, treat them as opportunity units pouncing on people when the opportunity presents itself, the heavy bolter is if someone moves to try and take them out from close distance, it can also add to their firepower against a more stationary target such as someones inside a ruin or behind a wall.

the devestators and dreadnaught work in the buddy system blasting from afar and making things easier to digest for the guys closer to the enemy, the ven dread retains his fist arm instead of going double ranged so he can answer a drop pod unit or a unit thats moved to try and cc the devestators

in a perfect world you use the imperial knight to soak fire from the enemy as well as step on his heavier targets and monsters. he can take a lot of punishment from an unprepared foe and he can hand it out, the thermal cannon can eat heavy infantry as well like meganobz or obliterators. in a perfect world the veterans with librarians drop in behind him so he acts as a screen, they bail him out of a cc attempt should he get into one, if not there mainly to support the librarian and act as ablative wounds try and keep the claw guys with shields upfront at all times so they are first to take wounds from shooting

the dark talon is here to mop up units, treat him as a giant flying vaccum from which nothing ever returns try and use his rift cannon as much as possible and save the time bomb for emergencies, the heavy bolters arent really useful on him but there available if you want them, since you have the maniple he shouldnt have to worry about air threats

I would have to disagree with this list. There are some issues here.

To start a dominus is great running stock, and should take relics or an upgraded invul, if anything.
Rangers are the lesser of the 2 skitarii troop choices. They are more expensive and have less damage output.
Skitarii should have special weapons. You are allowed 2 to start, and 3 at max squad size. Plasma is great especially in a dominus maniple with the rerolls. Plus they are the same range/shots as vanguard stock weapons. If not the arc rifles can be good anti tank, and still hurt infantry at S6 for half the price.
The shroud of heroes cool but now you have to run your libby solo.
Your tac marines have 3 different weapons....suited for 3 different types of units....
Scouts with a heavy bolter are better suited with snipers...same range and weapon type.
Your vets are an expensive unit that could be better served by terminators. especially since DA termies are so good.
Venerable dreadnoughts as a gun platform is a really expensive and ineffective unit for just 1 shot.

The raiment of the technomarty allows the dominus and his unit to snapfire at BS 2. It is 30 pts. It is ok for going with regular troops, if not a little expensive.
Just my opinion but things fit together better this way.

 Tenzilla wrote:

 ionusx wrote:
heres how id do it, a star denotes something ill cover as a footnote later:

skitarii domus maniple (335):

tech priest domus, phosphor serpenta(110)*

skitarii rangers 1x10 (120)

onager with icarus arrary (125)

dark angels CAD:

hq:

librarian, level 2, shroud of heroes, combat shield (105)

troops:

1x10 tactical marines, plasma gun, combi grav, multimelta drop pod (210)

1x5 scouts, bolters, heavy bolter with hellfire shells (68)

fast:

dark talon (160)

elite:

ven dread, lascannon (140)

1x9 veterans, drop pod, 2 veterans with storm shields and lightning claws, everyone else bolters or bolt pistol + chainsword, 1 grav gun (292)

heavy:

1x5 devestators, 2 lascannons, 2 missiles, cherub (145)

lord of war:

imperial knight freeblade (errant) with thermal cannon (370)

okay so what we have here is your classic micheal bay style list by that i mean its covered in big angry lasers, and big ugly explosions and some angry short ranged shooting of small arms

the dominus maniple is here as a ranged answer to enemy planes if you can scarf the points for it somewhere get their rainment of the mechano marytr i dont know how many points it is but it will improve them noticeably. if there are no air targets shift to shooting ground targets, the onager can still fight but at reduced effectiveness

the dark angels are the backbones of the force and make up its bulk, the tacticals, and scouts and veterans make up the front of the army closest to the enemy, they will with the knight act as a screen, the scouts should be near a table edge on deployment and ride that table edge to keep them out of the way, treat them as opportunity units pouncing on people when the opportunity presents itself, the heavy bolter is if someone moves to try and take them out from close distance, it can also add to their firepower against a more stationary target such as someones inside a ruin or behind a wall.

the devestators and dreadnaught work in the buddy system blasting from afar and making things easier to digest for the guys closer to the enemy, the ven dread retains his fist arm instead of going double ranged so he can answer a drop pod unit or a unit thats moved to try and cc the devestators

in a perfect world you use the imperial knight to soak fire from the enemy as well as step on his heavier targets and monsters. he can take a lot of punishment from an unprepared foe and he can hand it out, the thermal cannon can eat heavy infantry as well like meganobz or obliterators. in a perfect world the veterans with librarians drop in behind him so he acts as a screen, they bail him out of a cc attempt should he get into one, if not there mainly to support the librarian and act as ablative wounds try and keep the claw guys with shields upfront at all times so they are first to take wounds from shooting

the dark talon is here to mop up units, treat him as a giant flying vaccum from which nothing ever returns try and use his rift cannon as much as possible and save the time bomb for emergencies, the heavy bolters arent really useful on him but there available if you want them, since you have the maniple he shouldnt have to worry about air threats

I would have to disagree with this list. There are some issues here.

To start a dominus is great running stock, and should take relics or an upgraded invul, if anything.
Rangers are the lesser of the 2 skitarii troop choices. They are more expensive and have less damage output.
Skitarii should have special weapons. You are allowed 2 to start, and 3 at max squad size. Plasma is great especially in a dominus maniple with the rerolls. Plus they are the same range/shots as vanguard stock weapons. If not the arc rifles can be good anti tank, and still hurt infantry at S6 for half the price.
The shroud of heroes cool but now you have to run your libby solo.
Your tac marines have 3 different weapons....suited for 3 different types of units....
Scouts with a heavy bolter are better suited with snipers...same range and weapon type.
Your vets are an expensive unit that could be better served by terminators. especially since DA termies are so good.
Venerable dreadnoughts as a gun platform is a really expensive and ineffective unit for just 1 shot.

The raiment of the technomarty allows the dominus and his unit to snapfire at BS 2. It is 30 pts. It is ok for going with regular troops, if not a little expensive.
Just my opinion but things fit together better this way.

1 the dominus maniple is really only a tool for anti-air and shooting from the ground at air targets range trumps RoF when everythings a snapshot anyway. which is why you take the martyr rainment for bs2. the formation for the maniple only works if the team stays togeather, if the tank moves at tank speed the vanguard/rangers/dominus get left behind and the formation shuts off, if the formation moves at infantry speed the onager would never bring any of its other guns to bear because their all 36" against anything meaningfu because their a knight running around and space marines, with everyone packing a 48" gun except for the domus your getting everyone shooting as one. treat the dominus maniple like a devestator squad dont mix your multi-meltas with your lascannons. and before you ask the phosphor serpenta is really just there because lulz 5 points to spend y not


2. theres nothing that says he has to run solo its only when he is finally solo does he get a cover save
3. yes but their going to be at 24ish" range most of the time anyway because their coming in a pod, their going to always be able to shoot everything, i will however agree to moving the grav gun out of the veterans to the tacticals and the plasma gun down to veterans, im fine with that
4. sniper rifles are 48" range hb is 36", with hellfires hes now 24"
5. DA terminators are bad, and you should feel bad for suggesting them, all terminators are bad that dont assault from a vehicle, or come in bulk (but even in bulk their dodgy i know i run them at 2500 in bulk with a raider)
6. ud be surprised how effective one bs5 twin linked lascannon can be when it wants to, his lascannon is meant more as something for him to do if the enemy decides not to come by and pay a visit, and between him, the thermal cannon, and the dark talons demolisher cannon of blindnessvortexomg its more like you have 3 extra good dice to commit to shooting at tanks on top of the multi-melta at 24" and the devestator AT team

I dont even know how to respond to this.....but I will try to enlighten you.

How would range ever trump RoF when it is snapshots? more shots means more hits...also that is a moot point rangers guns are S4...your not downing anything with 6s to hit and only glancing a few flyers in the game on 6s again....

Also Onagers are walkers...they are not leaving infantry behind....

Dominus maniple twinlinks the formations firepower within 18" of a target of the Dominus....there is nothing that says they have to shoot at the same unit...and nothing at all that says they must fire at flyers....and nothing AT ALL that makes this an anit air unit...because one weapon option for 1 unit in the formation has skyfire?

You have been incorrect about everything AdMech at this point...I urge you to reread the codex.

Why would you take a relic that benefits the bearer while he is solo...then stick him with a unit?....wasted points?

Sniper rifles are 36"...HB are also 36"....and both heavy....Yes hellfire rounds are 24" but still heavy and a blast meaning you will be sitting still to fire it....

DA Terminators are not "bad" they are one of the better terminator options....what is possibly bad?...Hatred CSM...Overwatch at BS2....twinlinked the turn they arrive....splitfire....fearless...

140 points for one TL LC is not by any means a good deal....or effective...

So, I took a lot of what was thrown around here (kinda threw a lot out as well...) but this is what I was able to come up with a while ago.DA is known for its terminators so I kinda wanted to keep them :^) Also I was told, to my sadness, that Deathwing knights are kinda useless, is that true? they looked pretty cool so that was a bummer to hear, do you guys agree?

Anyways here's the list, please C&C:

HQ
Lbrarian, level 2, shroud of heroes, combat shield (105)


TROOPS
Deathwing Terminator Squad (245)
Sergeant w/ Stormbolter & Powersword
2 Terminators w/ Stormbolter & Powerfist
Terminator w/ Assault Cannon & Powerfist
Terminator Apothecary (Scored w/ Librarian)


Deathwing Terminator Squad (220)
Sergeant w/ Lightning Claws
2 Terminator w/ Stormbolter & Powerfist
Terminator w/ Heavy Flamer & Powerfist
Terminator w/ Lightning Claws

Tactical Squad (230)
Sergeant w/ Bolt Pistol and Chainsword
9 Space Marines w/ a Lascannon and Meltagun
Attached: Rhino

HEAVY SUPPORT
Predator (95)
Heavy Bolter Sidesponsons

Devastator Squad (245)
Sergeant w/ Boltpistol and Chainsword
4 Space Marines w/ Missile Launchers
5 Space Marines w/ Bolters

FAST ATTACK
Ravenwing Squadron (305)
Sergeant w/ Powerfist
5 Bikers w/ 1 Meltagun
1 Attack Bike w/ Multimelta
Teleport Homer Included in Bikes

This adds up to almost 1500, I'm not super sure if this will synergize well with what skitarii can do, but I left a little over 300 for them. I kinda threw in the predator, is that necessary with the dunecrawler in the maniple?

u dont get terminators as troops choices that was last edition
and 10 points for 5+ fnp is silly good value even if your not getting shrouded

Oh crap youre right, back to the drawing board...

However there is the Deathwitng Redemption Force formation you can take that are all terminators and an HQ...and give additional special rules...if you are not worried about obsec.

They auto arrive whatever turn you choose beyond the first, and you can shoot and run in either order the turn they arrive.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also the Deathwing knights are quite good. they can chew through anything in melee once they get there. choosing between ap 2 and ap 3 each turn, T5 on a 2+/3++ hitting most things on 3s with S6ap3 or S8ap2...they can also be added to the Deathwing formation to auto arrive. Given some psycic support they become even better.

ionusx wrote:
5. DA terminators are bad, and you should feel bad for suggesting them, all terminators are bad that dont assault from a vehicle, or come in bulk (but even in bulk their dodgy i know i run them at 2500 in bulk with a raider)

Me and my fellow Grey Knights take issue with this statement. Exterminatus request sent to the Ministorum. You will hear from us soon.

you don't want a warhound you want an Imperial Knight. Great plastic kits and great units.