Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

In general, what are the best ways to outfit guardsmen? Right now I'm looking at having two regular squads, a vet squad, a heavy team, and one platoon and one company command squad.

For the regular squads, I was thinking grenade launchers or flamers, partially to save on points (since the regular squads will go down the easiest and are less accurate), plus they're well rounded.

For the vets, I was thinking flamers and heavy flamer, all loaded into a transport. I was thinking melta guns, but seems like a waste if the rest of the squad's shots will be wasted.

For the heavy team, are autocannons a good choice? I figured they're well rounded and that might work out well, either that or lascannons.

Platoon command I was thinking a vox caster and 3 melta guns, loaded into a transport, to charge vehicles. Kind of a throwaway squad to take out big stuff.

Finally for the company command I was considering plasma guns, so they can sit in a transport towards the back and plink away at anything mildly scary.

I guess on a similar subject I was thinking of taking a commissar to go with a bullgryn squad, is it worth throwing a power fist on him?

I don't play guard but I want to offer some advice, having played against them a bit.

for your regular squads, assume that they WILL get charged and find themselves in close combat. The quickest way to get rid of a big blob of guardsmen for me is to get them into combat, kill a couple and either sweeping advance them or at least force them to run away. Mitigate that by maxing out on flamers and power axes, you can take axes that can't be challenged out and will threaten most units.

Melta vets are one of your best units. don't think of the non melta vets in the unit as wasted firepower, more as ablative wounds. vets of any kind will get shot at, flamer vets will just get shot at unit they fail a leadership test as they can't afford to lose many guys until they test. melta vets may at least get close enough to threaten a tank or draw a excessive amount of fire on them to distract from the rest of your army.

I don't like autocannons. they have good range, but that's about it. they don't have high enough strength to ID anything that you really have to worry about, they don't have enough shots to suppress light units and they cost to much for what they bring. I'd rather bring missile launchers to ID marines, or if you need to save points, i'd bring heavy bolters over auto cannons. 36" is still good range and extra shots will probably do more damage over the course of a game. lascannons are powerful, but they make the unit too much of a threat so that they will get focused on right away. also I think all the points spent on a lascannon with only BS3 is kinda a waste

plasma guns are fine, just be sure to bring a medic

unless your bullgryns and commisar are getting a xenos inquisitor with rad grenades so you can get some ID, a powerfist is just so many points on an independant charachter that will almost certainly get challenged and killed before he gets to swing

 Renesco P. Blue wrote:
unless your bullgryns and commisar are getting a xenos inquisitor with rad grenades so you can get some ID, a powerfist is just so many points on an independant charachter that will almost certainly get challenged and killed before he gets to swing

First off, thanks for the rest of your advice. Regarding the commissar however, can't I just use the bone 'ead to accept the challenges?

You can use the bone 'ed to tank the challenge. But a fist is still 25 points, if you think that the unit is going to be seeing enough comabt per game where it will make a difference then by all means take it. As a marine player I look at powerfists as swiss army knife option s8 can crack open a tank or paste an unsuspecting character. s6 on the other hand, while a force multiplier, doesn't give the unit the flexibility that warrants an additional 25 points dropped into it in my opinion. I will admit that the commissar model with a fist does look really cool though, and as long as everyone playing is having a good time, style is always better than substance.

King Bobbito,

How you fill out your guard platoon really depends on the rest of your list. Any of our special weapons or heavy weapons (except for mortars) can be useful in the right situation.

However, there are some generally recognized “best practices” for IG heavy/special weapons:
1.) CCS: what people take varies, but plasma heavy or a single lascannon tends to be the norm. Some folks take melta or sniper rifle heavy CCS’ as well, but those are less common.

2.) Infantry Squads: with the benefits to AP2 on the vehicle damage chart, more folks are taking lascannons in their blobbed up infantry platoons these days, but the old standby of autocannons can also work well. Missile launchers are too generalist to be useful (although I often take them for aesthetic and fluff reasons) and mortars have pretty much always been a poor choice for an infantry squad. With regard to special weapons, meltaguns, flamers, and plasma guns are very common in line infantry squads (in my experience grenade launchers are fun but lackluster).

3.) PCS: again, the loadout varies greatly, but the 4 flamer or 3 flamer/heavy flamer combo is really popular. If you mount up this squad in a chimera or vendetta/valkyrie it really shines

4.) Vets: again, what you see varies greatly, but 3 plasma vets and 3 meltavets are most commonly taken. Many IGers will drop a plasma or a melta and toss in a heavy flamer. I do this from time to time, but I keep missing the extra plasma or melta shot. Dismounted vets usually take lascannons and sniper rifles, but, again, autocannons can be good too. Note that it’s generally seen as a bad idea to put 3 flamers or a heavy flamer/2 flamers into your vet squads—doing so wastes their high ballistic skill.

5.) Heavy weapon squads: don’t take them. They were good before the 2003 codex made these guys into a 2 would toughness 3 model. Now they die too quickly. For 13 years now whenever I play against an IGer with heavy weapons squads, I have killed them on turn 1 or turn 2 and they have done squat to me. Note that before the 2014 codex gave us wyverns, mortar heavy weapons squads were the exception to this rule because the mortars could hide out of sight. Now with wyverns, mortars are a moot point.

PS You had asked whether a commie with a fist was worth it on bullgryns, I'd say go with a priest instead for the buffs, 4++, and fearless. Yes, you can feed the bonehead into the first challenge.

I hope this helps.

Are special weapon squads ever worth it, or are vets better for their higher BS and bigger squad?

And are melee weapons ever worth the extra points on sergeants (other than coolness factor)?

Yes, special weapon squads are good for riding Vendettas.

I've seen guard blobs with 5 X power axe sergeants and 2 X force axe primaris psykers. It was very unpleasant after all the divination buffs.

Weapon choices for guardsmen.
Let us start with the stats.

A normal plane-jane BS 3.which is 50% chance to hit.
Template / Blast / Multiple shots / Twin linked is your friend.
So autocannon in your squads has good reach and multiple shots and a decent strength so tends to be my goto.
The armored walkers with plasma cannons I like because BS does not factor in much.
Leman Russ Exterminators have good utility for the re-roll, multiple shots and can fire sponson weapons as well (can do anti-aircraft in a pinch).
The Vendetta with the 3 twin linked lascannons will not notice the BS3 much (Or any flamer troops riding in it).
The brutal Wyvern bears mentioning for the extreme amount of templates and re-rolls.
Chimera is a nice all-rounder and has enough shots depending on loadout to do OK with the low BS.

Now Veterans: BS4.
Melta is more in the metta for getting those bonuses on the roll for blasting vehicles so if going tank hunting: that is the weapon of choice.
If deploying a squad of these guys infiltrating or something, the lascannon will see good utility with them.
Deep strike with Storm Trooper / Kaskrin / Tempestus Scions as melta suicide squads for killing vehicles is always an option.
Tank Commanders make tanks shine and for goodness sake do not forget Pask and all the bonuses of what he can do and when he has squadron mates.

Miscellaneous:
Commands. Oh my goodness, if footslogging anything, make sure guys are in command range.
Master of Ordinance is worth considering for an extra template to drop.
An Aegis Defence Line with the accompanying Quad-gun is of note for that Commissar that wants to reach out and shoot something.
Baneblade? Why not!?!?!?!
Manticore drops MANY templates but limited ammo. When you run out, having the heavy flamer he can drive around and drive people nuts.
<edit> Sgt of squad, spend the extra point on a boltgun: you would be surprised how many guys they kill with those!
<edit/edit>Primaris Psyker we could write tactics on this all on it's own.
<editX3> How could I forget! The Priest attached to a ton of Conscripts.

This is from my own perspective and results may vary.

 kingbobbito wrote:
In general, what are the best ways to outfit guardsmen? Right now I'm looking at having two regular squads, a vet squad, a heavy team, and one platoon and one company command squad.

My recommendation: Give each regular Infantry Squad an Autocannon or Lascannon and combine them into one large squad. That way you can issue a single order and affect more models at once. You can also shave some points since you only need to buy 1 Voxcaster. Add a Commissar for morale checks, which still lets them Go to Ground (and get ordered back up again for no penalty) unlike a Priest.

I like a Platoon Command Squad decked out with Flamers in a Chimera. Drive around, capture objectives and burn stuff. Alternatively, if you want to go super cheap, give them a Mortar, hide them out of LoS and use them to issue basic orders - not particularly effective but it will save on points.

Vet squad is either Plasma or Melta in a Chimera, dealer's choice. Company Command Squad can do the same thing, or it can sit back in cover with a Lascannon or something though a single BS4 Lascannon doesn't usually do much even if you are ordering to Ignore Cover or Tank Hunters or whatever.

Heavy Weapon Teams are terrible. Special Weapons Teams are also kinda terrible, but at least you can put them in a Vendetta or something and parachute them out with Flamers.

My platoons almost always rock max flamers, since I find they're the best special for a high reward play if you're good at positioning them (placement of characters and specials within a platoon is almost all the skill involved in using a platoon blob) and they grant the added benefit of making you much more resilient to cc with an average of 5 extra overwatch wounds vs T4. That makes a big difference vs MSU tactics where your opponent wants to occupy your blob with a relatively small slice of his forces, losing 2 extra Eavy armored ork boyz before they get to assault is a big deal.

I sometimes will bring the much-hailed power axe sarges but usually I am unimpressed by them. 15 points is a pretty big chunk of change for .5 wounds vs MEQ on a body who's extremely likely to just go splat to shooting incidentally. If my opponent assaults a blob I have a few power weapons in there already (I usually run a psyquisitor for rad grenades, who gets a free force sword) which come stock on several characters. I'm much more inclined to toss a melta bomb on a few sarges as anti-walker or MC defense.

As for heavy weapons...again I'm not totally sold. I think Lascannons are a pretty hefty investment for something that really degrades the effectiveness of the squad it's attached to. I recently changed my list to include 3 1-gun rapiers in the 3 HS slots that used to contain my artillery (now in an emperors wrath formation). I gotta say...wow. It's made a huge difference being able to spread my much more durable anti tank power around rather than choosing between tying up 45 guardsmen and 3 incredibly fragile platforms.

That said I am considering experimenting with mortars in my platoon. For only 5 points, you get a significant boost to a guardsman's capabilities, and you don't waste all the lasguns in the units basic weaponry to fire them. They are outshined by the Wyvern, as always, but as an upgrade rather than a HWT they're 25 points, get five shots instead of 3, and are much more durable. I know the common wisdom is mortars are trash and should never be used but I've got the nice Vostroyan mortar teams and I'm curious if I can learn to see them as better than a straight liability.

My infantry squads tend to be mobile so I don't like wasting points on giving them heavy weapons.

I'm on the fence concerning heavy weapon squads with 3 flamers. I suppose they can be useful to screen your main infantry blob (if you decide to do that). Giving them any other weapon is a waste seeing they're only BS3.

Veterans are great to give special weapons to. Giving them flamers is a complete waste of points though seeing they wouldn't use their BS to hit anyway. Plasma or Melta Vets are the way to go. Again my force is usually too mobile to use sniper vets.... although I can see their potential.

If you must use heavy weapon squads it's a toss up between autocannons and heavy bolters. I prefer the extra shot of the heavy bolters seeing they will still wound most things on a 3+. I personally do actually have a lascannon HW team I use to draw fire, but probably a tad expensive for that role plus BS3 hurts them a lot.

I will say that I always had a soft spot for grenade launchers. need overwatch? krak. shaken? krak. anything else? frag.

Special weapons squads with demo packs are the best deathstar killer in the codex, if you give them a reliable ride to make it to the enemy. Throw them in a Valkyrie and rain suicide bombers on terminators.
If you want a 3Flamer/1Hflamer setup give it to the platoon command squad instead of vets, they're BS3 so you're not wasting decent BS firing flamers.
Regular squads only really need flamers/axes if they're blobbed up, 1 flamer or axe isn't going to do much if they get charged. If it's multiple minimum sized squads then keep them cheap, use them as 10-wound objective scorers with a plasma/melta gun.
Veterans will do all the heavy lifting/killing, equip them accordingly.