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This is a question in regards to the Daemonic Incursion formation.

Lets say that you want to take a WarpFlame Host with 9 squads of pink horrors with a herald. According to the formation, these two rules will apply.

SPECIAL RULES:
Harbinger of Tzeentch: If the Herald of Tzeentch from this Formation is a Lesser Locus of Transmogrification, Greater Locus of Change or an Exalted Locus of Conjuration, the special rules associated with that locus affect all units from this Formation that are within 12" of him. If such a unit is also affected by another locus, they will receive both benefits.

Storm of Daemonic Fire: Add 1 to the Strength value of any Tzeentchian Flame Weapons (see Codex: Chaos Daemons) or psychic powers from the Discipline of Changeunleashed by units from a Warpflame Host.

So if you take a herald with a Exalted Locus of Conjuration, all units within 12" of the Herald will be casting flickering fire at STR 7.

Lets say that you take a second WarpFlame Host with 9 Exalted Flamers with a herald. Each exalted flamer is an IC and joins a unit of horrors. This herald also takes a Exalted Locus of Conjuration -- which reads as the following.

This model, and all models in it's unit, add +1 to the Strength of all hits caused by psychic powers they manifest

Therefore, each exaulted flamer within 12" of the herald will be giving +1 strength to the unit they joined for purposes of psychic shooting. If a squad of horrors is joined by an Exalted Flamers within 12" of it's herald, and it's within 12" of the horror's own herald, does it get the following on it's flickering fire?
+1 from storm of damonic fire
+1 from exalted locus of conjuration from herald one
+1 from exalted locus of conjuration from herald two effecting exalted flamers

The question...
This is in the wording for Harbinger of Tzeentch... If such a unit is also affected by another locus, they will receive both benefits. What is another? Is it a locus of a different type, or is it a different locus all together?

Thanks!

They didn't stack in the past, but we also never had the "harbinger of..." rules.

This is an interesting question and I would like to know how this works as well, but it will probably boil down to HIWPI.

You don't get the benefit of two special rules unless specifically stated.

That's the debate, whether or not the harbinger of tzeentch rule states it gets the benefit of both rules or if it can only benefit from it once.

Basically, does the rule mean "another" as in "any additional" or does it mean "another" as in "any one different from the first"

nosferatu1001 wrote:
You don't get the benefit of two special rules unless specifically stated.

It does specifically state so. If such a unit is also affected by another locus, they will receive both benefits.
The question is not if they can get both benefits, the question is about the word 'another'.

Edit : Ninja'ed by AncientSkarbrand

The implications are interesting. If so, it's possible to get flickering fire to STR 8 instead of STR 7.
That won't have an effect on most of the game -- since it will still be wounding most things on a 2+. It will have a big effect on high toughness models like Wraithknights, which would easily be looking at 9d6 STR 8 shots thrown at it. It would also be much more effective vs gladius lists.

It would give us daemons some semi-reliable anti armour. Also helps instant death any T4 multi wound dudes.

From what I remember, daemons can only claim the benefit of the highest ranked loci - so if you have a Greater Locus and Exalted Locus in the same unit you cannot benefit from the Greater. Normally.

It reads to me, that if your herald has the Exalted Locus, and a unit is within range that has a Greater or Lesser Locus, then they would still benefit from the Greater/Lesser in addition to the Exalted.

 Happyjew wrote:
From what I remember, daemons can only claim the benefit of the highest ranked loci - so if you have a Greater Locus and Exalted Locus in the same unit you cannot benefit from the Greater. Normally.

Formation rules would override this.

 Happyjew wrote:
It reads to me, that if your herald has the Exalted Locus, and a unit is within range that has a Greater or Lesser Locus, then they would still benefit from the Greater/Lesser in addition to the Exalted.

Thanks for your input.
I'm going to set it up as a poll.

I don't think this works because once the Exalted Flamers join the Horrors they're no longer "units from this formation". But if a Herald with Exalted Locus joins a Warpflame Host Horrors unit within 12" of the Warpflame Host's Herald also with Exalted Locus then they'd get +3 Str.

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
They didn't stack in the past, but we also never had the "harbinger of..." rules.

This is an interesting question and I would like to know how this works as well, but it will probably boil down to HIWPI.

You realize this is the difference between strng 7 flickering fires and strng 10 right?


The RAW and especially the RAI are pretty clear on this one, and anybody arguing against it doesn't realize how good this formation can be just at strength 7.

"if there are two loci of the same tier, you choose which applies" pg 67

"If such a unit is also affected by another locus, they will receive both benefits." Isn't the most clear but it means another locus as in another type. Both benefits refers to the two different types of benefits.


"The implications are interesting. If so, it's possible to get flickering fire to STR 8 instead of STR 7."

Why stop @ 8?

 Aijec wrote:
Why stop @ 8?

Due to the phrasing "If such a unit is also affected by another locus, they will receive both benefits."
You could make a case that both refers to the current loci and the one already affecting the unit, but I suspect most people would see this as a limit of two loci per unit.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
I don't think this works because once the Exalted Flamers join the Horrors they're no longer "units from this formation".

So your thought is that once a IC joins a unit, he no longer counts as part of the unit of that formation?

Page 166 of the BRB says "While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes", but it does not say anything about losing his previous unit benefits. It's a case of "All lawyers are asshats, Benard is an asshat, therefore Bernard is a lawyer". Someone can be a part of one group and still have different characteristics.

I could see this being interpreted either way, as the polling shows it's a pretty even split on opinion. Thanks for your thoughts!

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
It would give us daemons some semi-reliable anti armour. Also helps instant death any T4 multi wound dudes.

The biggest problem I see is that the exalted flamers weapons are 'heavy' -- making them horribad units. While they can still provide a nice 'wall of death' for any assaulting unit, forcing that model to stand still to shoot is a big penalty.

 Aijec wrote:
Why stop @ 8?

Because a unit can only ever belong to a single formation, you can only have 1 Harbinger per formation and only the Harbinger locus gets to ignore the no stacking rule when applied to its formation's units.

The harbinger rule does not require the daemons to be from the same formation.

 labmouse42 wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
I don't think this works because once the Exalted Flamers join the Horrors they're no longer "units from this formation".

So your thought is that once a IC joins a unit, he no longer counts as part of the unit of that formation?

Page 166 of the BRB says "While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes", but it does not say anything about losing his previous unit benefits. It's a case of "All lawyers are asshats, Benard is an asshat, therefore Bernard is a lawyer". Someone can be a part of one group and still have different characteristics.

I could see this being interpreted either way, as the polling shows it's a pretty even split on opinion. Thanks for your thoughts!

Yeah, if Exalted Flamer from Warpflame Host A is part of the Horrors unit from Warpflame Host B for all rules purposes then it's hard to argue he's still a unit from Warpflame Host A, which he would need to be to benefit from Host A's locus. On the other hand if you attached a Herald with Exalted Locus to the Horror unit and they were within 12" of their Host's locus then they'd get the +Str from both.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
The harbinger rule does not require the daemons to be from the same formation.

The rule applies to the Herald from "this formation" and units from "this formation". I don't see how it would apply to daemon's from other formations.

The rule about also being affected by anotehr locus does not state "from this formation" - because it cannto do so.

If I have a CAD Herald in a formation unit, and have the Harbinger herald within 12" of the unit. that unit gets BOTH loci benefits.

The Locus doesn't do anything to exalted flamers. Just being chosen as part of the warp flame host is what gives their flame weapons +1 str.

The Locus just bumps the psychic shooting of heralds and horrors by a strength. It does nothing for exalted flamers anyways.

The rule is very clearly allowing loci from other detachments to also affect the unit. There can be only one herald in a warp flame host, the CAD ones can add their Locus to a unit that is also affected by the harbinger ' s Locus, otherwise the rule does nothing. The tiers of the Locus have no effect here, because the harbinger rule overrides the restriction of only one affecting the unit.

The real question is if the exalted conjuration Locus can stack. I think it's probably intended not to.

In any case, the answer would be determined by whether the sentence in the harbinger of tzeentch rule means another as in any other or another as in any different Locus.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Abadabadoobadon, you're thinking about this the wrong way.

I have a herald that is a harbinger of tzeentch from a warp flame host. I give him a conjuration Locus. Units within 12 get the benefit of his Locus, AS WELL AS ANOTHER LOCUS THE UNIT IS CURRENTLY AFFECTED BY.

I then add a CAD to my list with another herald of tzeentch, giving him the lesser Locus of transmogrification and put him in one of the horror units from my Warpflame Host. Now, RAW, that pink horror unit gets to benefit from the harbingers Locus as well as another Locus they are affected by. The rule says they get both benefits from the loci they are affected by, which in this case is one of transmogrification. The rule has no restrictions about where the Locus comes from that affects the unit. The harbinger ' s Locus is applied in addition to another one the unit is currently affected by. This overrides completely the restriction concerning Locus tiers, you don't even need to think about it because the rule expressly states you get both benefits.

Show me why you think this can't happen, and then show me how to use the rule the way you think it works.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
The rule about also being affected by anotehr locus does not state "from this formation" - because it cannto do so.

If I have a CAD Herald in a formation unit, and have the Harbinger herald within 12" of the unit. that unit gets BOTH loci benefits.

I must have misunderstood your post. I thought you were implying the Harbinger locus could benefit daemons that weren't from the Warpflame Host Herald's formation. I agree that a CAD Herald with Exalted Locus could join a Warpflame Host unit and if the Host's Herald's locus was within 12" they'd benefit from both.

Yup, I misunderstood your position too, then. Sorry, abadabadoobadon!

Do you think that the unit can get both benefits from two loci of conjuration, thus making their witchfires str 8?

Personally yes - getting the benefit of both would I believe override the not gaining the benefit of a special rule more than once.

Wow. I've been playing horrors in every list since 7th and never once used flickering fire. This makes me rethink that

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
The Locus doesn't do anything to exalted flamers. Just being chosen as part of the warp flame host is what gives their flame weapons +1 str.

The Locus just bumps the psychic shooting of heralds and horrors by a strength. It does nothing for exalted flamers anyways.

The idea is that the effect of the Conjuration locus applies to "this model, and all models in its unit" so the Exalted Flamers spread that effect to the Horrors. Note that the Harbinger rule doesn't say to treat the unit as though the Herald had joined them - it just says "the special rules associated with that locus" affect them. So the Harbinger rule causes every unit from the same Formation within 12" of the Herald to behave as if the unit possessed that same locus. Further the effects of those loci always apply regardless of other loci that may be present in the unit. This is a little problematic since the locus rules are all worded to apply to "a model, and all models in it's unit" so you could argue that if the unit gets the locus rule then every model gets the locus rule and they all apply per Harbinger so that means the unit gets +1 Str for every model in the unit, but let's not go there.

The problem is I don't think the Harbinger effect can spread to the Exalted Flamers in the first place if they have joined a unit from another formation since they are no longer "units from this Formation" per the IC rules and they have to be a "unit from this Formation within 12" of (the Herald)" for the special rule to apply.

On the other hand if a CAD Herald with Exalted Locus joined a Warpflame Host unit the CAD Herald would gain the benefits of both loci. Per the IC rules the CAD Herald does not have the Harbinger of Tzeentch special rule but he doesn't need it - the Harbinger special rule isn't what grants him the +1 Str, the Exalted Locus of Conjuration rule does that. The Harbinger of Tzeentch special rule is what allows that additional locus to take effect and for that to happen only 1 model in the unit needs to have that rule. It goes like this:

CAD Herald joins Warpflame Host unit
CAD Herald Exalted Locus grants +1 Str to CAD Herald and Warpflame Host unit per Exalted Locus of Conjuration special rule
Warpflame Host unit is within 12" of Warpflame Host Herald
Warpflame Host unit gains Warpflame Host Herald's locus per Harbinger of Tzeentch special rule
CAD Herald gets +1 Str per Exalted Locus of Conjuration special rule

So now what happens in the following situation?

CAD Herald with Exalted Locus
Warpflame Host A Herald with Exalted Locus
Warpflame Host A Exalted Flamer
Warpflame Host B Herald with Exalted Locus
Warpflame Host B Exalted Flamer

They all join together into one unit.

It would depend on who joined whom. Per the IC rules the process by which ICs join units is not symmetric. 1 IC would have to be the "base" unit and other ICs would have to join him. If Host A's Herald or Flamer formed the base unit then you'd first declare the CAD Herald's locus as the overriding one (as required by for the locus rules when multiples of the same locus are present in a unit), but then Host A's locus would kick in on top of that per the Harbinger rule. All the Heralds would get +2 Str from the loci and the Host Heralds would get an additional +1 for Daemonic Fire. Host B's locus wouldn't do anything because there's no Host B unit to affect. Vice versa if Host B's Herald or Flamer formed the base. If the CAD Herald formed the base then all the Heralds would get +1 Str from whichever Locus was in effect while both Warpflame Heralds would get an additional +1 from their Formation's Storm of Daemonic Fire.

Last example:

Warpflame Host A Herald with Exalted Locus
Warpflame Host A Exalted Flamer
Warpflame Host B Herald with Greater Locus
Warpflame Host B Exalted Flamer

All join Flamer A. Problem! Per the locus rules the strongest locus in the unit automatically overrides. This is Herald A's locus. Herald B doesn't get to apply his locus using Harbinger since there's no Host B unit to apply it to.

Instead they should all join Flamer B. Herald A's locus automatically overrides per the locus rules but then Host B's Harbinger rule kicks in to grant Herald B's locus to the unit.

This isn't so important for Tzeentch since their other 2 loci suck. But if you're doing a drone star you want to make sure to give the weaker locus to the Harbinger:

Tallyband Herald with Lesser Locus, Rotswarm Herald with Greater Locus, Rotswarm Plague Drones <-WRONG! Harbinger lets you apply the Greater Locus in addition to any locus the Plague Drones are affected by but nothing allows the Lesser Locus to take affect in the first place.

Tallyband Herald with Greater Locus, Rotswarm Herald with Lesser Locus, Rotswarm Plague Drones <-RIGHT! Greater Locus takes effect per normal locus rule, then Lesser Locus takes effect per Rotswarm Harbinger rule.

this one is very similar to a debate I feel like I'm in the right on regarding stacking Cursed Earth. It comes down one's interpretation of "another", as you've pointed out. I'd say RAW it would work. Intended or not. Because that's how I personally interpret "another". And unless I missed it in my dex, I don't remember there being a rule saying it can't stack with itself, unlike blessings.