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I'm trying to decide which army to play between daemons and imperial guard. I like them both equally, probably guard slightly more, but I play against Tau and skitarri regularly. And I'm a little disheartened with all the negativity surrounding guard. Apparently I'll have a really tough time playing them, and I'm probably better off playing daemons? Is there much point to that??

Thanks for any help!

I love my Guard.

Here are some downsides:

If you want to run big blobs of Guardsmen, be prepared to spend hundreds of dollars on really weak guys, and a lot of time putting them together and painting them.

If you want to run a mechanized list, be prepared to spend hundreds of dollars on lots of tanks and vehicles.

So, basically, it's an expensive army to run.

But so much fun!

Guards aren't that bad really they are just not the OP nastyness they used to be a few years back. Guards have lots of builds with almost no overlapping models so it is worth to study them yourself rigorously before you start building our amry.

Deamons have a few very strong builds but their casual armies are kinda weak.

Play whatever you're more into. You'll hate the game if you play something you're just not into.

That said, IG missed the 7E gravy train of asburd overpowered abilities that armies like Eldar and Necrons enjoye, and still largely function as a 5E army and have both awful internal balance and a poor fit with the fundamental core rules in terms of capability. They're one of the worst armies out there in competitive terms and, barring 3 years in 5E, they kind of always have been.

So guard have never really been a very competitive army??

 Andy140491 wrote:
So guard have never really been a very competitive army??

Nah, they were super competitive for awhile with a couple of particular builds.

But Guard REALLY suffer from the fact that their points/stats are stuck in 3rd Edition and tanks are trash in 7th.

 Andy140491 wrote:
So guard have never really been a very competitive army??

as I noted, they were strong in 5th, and have been mediocre at best in all other editions. Most of the time they're a filler army and the core rules heavily favor skimmer vehicles and deathstars over nonskimmer vehicles and light infantry.

Meanwhile Eldar have been too tier powerful in every edition *but* 5th

All of that and guard is in the top 3 for armies collected....people really enjoy their guard. ( I do)

As stated it is very expensive. I have over 4k points and I still havent collected all the different current models for different builds I like to play, I end up playing by proxy in a lot of friendly games because they have so many options.

What guys would you make of chaos daemons then? Are they quite good???

If you play a very specific build of Daemons then you will find yourself with a rather stout competitive force. That said, played casually, Daemons would be on similar footing to Imperial Guard, to varying degrees of agreement depending on who you talk to.

Daemons are the stronger force in my opinion, strategically speaking and game-wise. Lots of bodies on the field, all getting some kind of save (invulnerable) that ignores cover or AP can't remove/negate. The downside is most of your saves are going to be mediocre at best (4+ or 5+ usually) but you at least get to take them, and can through the use of psychic powers, replenish your lost numbers by summoning more units to the tabletop.

Both armies are great, and I personally own and field a Vostroyan Firstborn guard list, played in a mechanized format (Tanks!!). I would look at both model ranges and see which one appeals to you the most and then go from there.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

 Red__Thirst wrote:
If you play a very specific build of Daemons then you will find yourself with a rather stout competitive force. That said, played casually, Daemons would be on similar footing to Imperial Guard, to varying degrees of agreement depending on who you talk to.

Daemons are the stronger force in my opinion, strategically speaking and game-wise. Lots of bodies on the field, all getting some kind of save (invulnerable) that ignores cover or AP can't remove/negate. The downside is most of your saves are going to be mediocre at best (4+ or 5+ usually) but you at least get to take them, and can through the use of psychic powers, replenish your lost numbers by summoning more units to the tabletop.

Both armies are great, and I personally own and field a Vostroyan Firstborn guard list, played in a mechanized format (Tanks!!). I would look at both model ranges and see which one appeals to you the most and then go from there.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

Cheers dude! I get that modelling is a massive part of an army... But there's only so much love I can give a certain army after being tabled constantly... And my tau friend aims to do such a thing...

As a whole army.. I prefer guard. I love the idea and the feel to them. I'm not after a 'power army' or one that's just broken. But one I can confidently field without thinking I'm gonna get stomped.

That being said.. Daemons have some of my favourite models.. In skarbrand, and the new blood thirsters!! I just don't like the whole 'mixed God' thing. I like my army to be more uniformed.. If that makes any sense! I'd collect tau.. If I thought I could give him a run for his money. I just think
I'm peeing against the wind with that hope!

it depends on what you want... Daemons are in my opinion WAY funner to paint and model. Both can be fun to play but are not currently on the positive end of the power swing in my opinion, but chaos is the stronger of the two

 Andy140491 wrote:


Cheers dude! I get that modelling is a massive part of an army... But there's only so much love I can give a certain army after being tabled constantly... And my tau friend aims to do such a thing...

As a whole army.. I prefer guard. I love the idea and the feel to them. I'm not after a 'power army' or one that's just broken. But one I can confidently field without thinking I'm gonna get stomped.

That being said.. Daemons have some of my favourite models.. In skarbrand, and the new blood thirsters!! I just don't like the whole 'mixed God' thing. I like my army to be more uniformed.. If that makes any sense! I'd collect tau.. If I thought I could give him a run for his money. I just think
I'm peeing against the wind with that hope!

I totally understand wanting your force to be uniform and identifiable without looking like a mish-mash of different things (Nurgle + Tzneetch + Khorn have a lot of various colors and not many to tie them all together going on).

Well one cool/interesting thing with Guard is there are a number of different regiments still available to some degree or another, namely Mordians, Steel Legion, Vostroyans, Tallarn, etc. in addition to the plastic Cadians and Catachans. Or, you can do your own thing and paint up your guardsmen wearing orange jump suits and call them a Penal Legion. The options for modeling are vast and very interesting.

That's one of the reasons I love my Guard so much. My Vostroyan First Born look very striking on the tabletop, and whenever I play someone for the first time, they're always wowed by the visual of the force as a whole.

One other thing with Guard, and Daemons. You could try and do the best of both worlds scenario by building a traitor guard force and allying in Skarbrand + a few handfuls of daemons, or vice versa, some Daemons (Skarbrand HQ, etc) with a Blood Thirster as a Lord of War and some traitor guard units allied in, a command squad or leman russ command squadron, some traitor guardsmen veterans or a solid platoon with some Wyvern batteries and maybe a Primaris Psyker with Daemonology to summon more daemons.

Could work, and would give you the best of both worlds.

Just thinking out loud. Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

From personal experience, I find that demons have a lot more potential in terms of more competitive gaming. Some summoning lists can get really out of hand, and in general monstrous creatures are better than vehicles.

Don't let that dissuade you though, I've seen solid guard armies and am personally looking at building my own right now.

Have daemons always been the more competitive?? My friend has always played tau.. And from what I can gather, guard have always had a hard time playing against them?

There are a few things to consider when choosing between Astra Militarum and Chaos Daemons. The first is that if you want to go all out on the competitive side of gaming, Daemons will serve you better once you master them and use the strongest combination of units available to them. However, Daemons are extremely reliant on cheesy crutch units such as Fateweaver and the way their Psychic and Shooting phases function will often tick off your opponents.

Astra Militarum don't have a great codex as a lot of their options are poor and the best they can put out has widely available hard counters or runs counter to what you want in a tournament, but for general play they are fine. They can put out lots of firepower - especially if you use Forge World units - but they tend to be inaccurate and can't really soak up damage in return. I find the more difficult army to master is Chaos Daemons despite having a higher ceiling as their crutch units can die really easily if you aren't careful and lead to your army falling apart, whereas the Guard are much simpler to play but can't get quite as far in competitive play. As for which army is the most fun to use, that's a tough one that ultimately is probably player-dependent.

Caederes wrote:
There are a few things to consider when choosing between Astra Militarum and Chaos Daemons. The first is that if you want to go all out on the competitive side of gaming, Daemons will serve you better once you master them and use the strongest combination of units available to them. However, Daemons are extremely reliant on cheesy crutch units such as Fateweaver and the way their Psychic and Shooting phases function will often tick off your opponents.

Astra Militarum don't have a great codex as a lot of their options are poor and the best they can put out has widely available hard counters or runs counter to what you want in a tournament, but for general play they are fine. They can put out lots of firepower - especially if you use Forge World units - but they tend to be inaccurate and can't really soak up damage in return. I find the more difficult army to master is Chaos Daemons despite having a higher ceiling as their crutch units can die really easily if you aren't careful and lead to your army falling apart, whereas the Guard are much simpler to play but can't get quite as far in competitive play. As for which army is the most fun to use, that's a tough one that ultimately is probably player-dependent.

Hey man, that's pretty much just answered my question to a T!! The problem I have is that... I hate cookie cutter lists... I hate playing units because it's the only way to make an army work.. Which is kinda how I feel daemons work...

I don't play tournaments, at all. We just play round our houses, or at Warhammer world. But, with my friend playing tau, he doesn't really cheese it.. (I.e multiple riptides) but he's not a causal gamer by any means. He WILL. Try and table me...

I love an unison army.. And I LOVE the Lord of war tanks... But I also love bloodthirsters. So I'm kinda stuck. What would you advise?

 Andy140491 wrote:


I don't play tournaments, at all. We just play round our houses, or at Warhammer world. But, with my friend playing tau, he doesn't really cheese it.. (I.e multiple riptides) but he's not a causal gamer by any means. He WILL. Try and table me...

I love an unison army.. And I LOVE the Lord of war tanks... But I also love bloodthirsters. So I'm kinda stuck. What would you advise?

I'd advise a Renegades and Heretics army. Chaos Imperial guard can be uniform soldiers or ragged mutant militia, as you prefer.
You can leave the chaos iconography to banners and characters so that your army can be played as loyal imperial guard if you prefer.
The Proper R&H list can ally with daemons but even loyal IG can have Malefic daemonology psykers, rolling to summon bloodthirsters and bloodletters. In fact, there's a formation that makes them far more likely to succeed at this than chaos armies, which makes zero sense.

Modelling wise, if you just want to play at our mates house, you can use all kinds of 3rd party suppliers- American Civil War/WW2/Napoleonic miniatures come in big inexpensive boxes of men armed with (laser) muskets and are often scaled better than GW models. You can add plasmaguns etc as needed. Just don't expect Warhammer World to love that, I'm not sure on the rules there.

 Andy140491 wrote:

Caederes wrote:
There are a few things to consider when choosing between Astra Militarum and Chaos Daemons. The first is that if you want to go all out on the competitive side of gaming, Daemons will serve you better once you master them and use the strongest combination of units available to them. However, Daemons are extremely reliant on cheesy crutch units such as Fateweaver and the way their Psychic and Shooting phases function will often tick off your opponents.

Astra Militarum don't have a great codex as a lot of their options are poor and the best they can put out has widely available hard counters or runs counter to what you want in a tournament, but for general play they are fine. They can put out lots of firepower - especially if you use Forge World units - but they tend to be inaccurate and can't really soak up damage in return. I find the more difficult army to master is Chaos Daemons despite having a higher ceiling as their crutch units can die really easily if you aren't careful and lead to your army falling apart, whereas the Guard are much simpler to play but can't get quite as far in competitive play. As for which army is the most fun to use, that's a tough one that ultimately is probably player-dependent.

Hey man, that's pretty much just answered my question to a T!! The problem I have is that... I hate cookie cutter lists... I hate playing units because it's the only way to make an army work.. Which is kinda how I feel daemons work...

I don't play tournaments, at all. We just play round our houses, or at Warhammer world. But, with my friend playing tau, he doesn't really cheese it.. (I.e multiple riptides) but he's not a causal gamer by any means. He WILL. Try and table me...

I love an unison army.. And I LOVE the Lord of war tanks... But I also love bloodthirsters. So I'm kinda stuck. What would you advise?

You should probably play IG. Daemons are a little one note. The reason being is that most of their models are mono duty. Bloodletters, Plaguebearers, and Daemonetters are all variants of close combat troops. Horrors are a spell casting troop. It is kind of like that across the board where you have 4 variations of similar units. IG can be very versitile in their unit lists and they can ally with anyone. As Angel said, a renegades list could also give you the best of both worlds.

On a side note, IG vs Tau is a good match up for IG. IG can quite easily out shoot a Tau army tanks to artillery and heavy weapons. Things like Wyverns will make short work of Fire Warrior squads and all the hidden special weapons will shred his more expensive suits. Infantry in the open will suffer to pulse weapons and so will vehicles if he takes long strike, but in most cases you will have him outgunned. A strong alpha strike taking out his pathfinders and key heavy hitters with artillery can really neuter a Tau player.

The main weakness IG face against Tau is MC spam and Longstrike. Extended range of the pulse rifle can also be problematic for IG infantry if it is synergised with ethereal or fire blade powers.

IF you are worried about getting tabled I wouldnt worry so much as guard. Ive played guard for over a decade and have yet to be tabled. There is just oo many things on the bored usually to be tabled....that doesnt mean that I win all the time either.

As for Guard vs tau....its a pretty goof match up depending on how the guard player builds their army. Your tanks can out range most tau units keeping them safe while dropping pie plates on your opponent. Fire warriors will almost always beat out your guardsmen in a firefight though, You can ignore cover just as much as they can, and also shoot from out of LoS with all your artillery.

If your friend isnt running "cheesy" tau lists you have a fighting chance. In a non competitive setting, (around the house with friends, etc.) I win more games than I loose. But that being said neither me or my opponent are bringing cheese, and I have a decade of practice with guard.

Deamons are nasty...and as stated the more powerful army in the long run. I always thought nurgle were the coolest, and with the new start collecting bundles you can get a decent little set for a nice price. The guard collecting box isnt so great a deal...it comes down to a free commissar basically.

Go for the Guard. If you like them more, you will enjoy them more, it's that simple.

I would say go with guard, but understand what you are getting into: Lots of models, lots of painting. Unless you're going to commission the army, or you're going to buy the models assembled off ebay and never paint them or something, be prepared for a lot of painting and building.

Tabletop performance-wise, they can be competitive, but you should read through the many IG tactics threads on the forum before you try playing your friend as many others have pointed out, there is poor internal balance within the codex. Certain units just aren't worth ever bringing in a remotely competitive list. I'd agree it may be a good idea to leave off any chaos heraldry so you can play renegade or loyalists as you see fit, no point in pigeon holing yourself if you don't have to! That all being said, don't expect to win even half the time. It is a tough army to play, but the flavor and reward is well worth it when you watch your executioners vaporize a squad of termis, watch your blob of guardsman melt a space marine squad into slag with their silly amounts of flashlights, or watch a lone lascannon team one-shot a land raider because you ordered the squad to be TL. It is honestly a great army for narrative. I've seen a lone Sergeant regroup, fire his laspistol at a bloodthirster, and take off its last wound. It's far more impressive for narrative purposes when a guard sergeant does something vs a space marine sergeant.

Either choice you go with, just have fun!

 chrispy1991 wrote:
. It is honestly a great army for narrative. I've seen a lone Sergeant regroup, fire his laspistol at a bloodthirster, and take off its last wound. It's far more impressive for narrative purposes when a guard sergeant does something vs a space marine sergeant.

Either choice you go with, just have fun!

Haha that was my PCS Commander a few games back...the infantry he was with all died, he fell back, regrouped, shot into a chaos unit...killed a CSM, then charged, challenged, survived, and removed the last wound off a Chaos Lord.

Dont plan on results like this obviously but it sure is hilarious when things happen that way.

Thing is, if guard, as a standard have never really been, as a whole... 'Competitive', or at least as much as daemons, I'm starting to think I'd be better off getting daemons.

I enjoy both lots of models equally, and the idea of summoning a blood thirster for nothing is pretty awesome! And as someone mentioned, the fact that they have a history of not being 'bad' is quite appealing...

I've watched so many battle reports where guard just get smoked, over and over. Pretty much all last night and this morning. Coupled with them having bad internal balance, ect... It's making for quite an annoying situation. Or should I say, more one sided.

My friend doesn't play cheese... But he brings powerful units, he uses fire warriors en mass, and he brings two riptides. Normall one... But he has the second as an option. And tbh, he's who I play against almost 90% of the time.. So if I'm gonna struggle with guard, I don't want a constant thrashing to put me off :/

Your solution to riptides as guard is super easy...and fire warriors tbh....but that is list tailoring...

IA Armored battlegroup gives you BS 4 command tanks/commissar elite tanks which can be vanquishers that get beathunter shells with ID special rule....bye bye riptides, also eradicators S6 AP4 large blast ignore cover troops...with 3 HBs to help out...

guard is one of the top 3 most popular armies for a reason...they are fun...they can be good. and you get more options than anyone except maybe SM

The choice is ultimately yours, but neither are going to be a power army to start...demons and guard have a learning curve. Deamons prolly more so.

I don't mind tailoring against my ass hat off a friend :') and I don't think he'll have an issue with me using Imperial armour either.

I do love the idea of guard... I love the platoons and tanks. As long as I stand a chance vs tau, I'll be happy

 Andy140491 wrote:
I don't mind tailoring against my ass hat off a friend :') and I don't think he'll have an issue with me using Imperial armour either.

I do love the idea of guard... I love the platoons and tanks. As long as I stand a chance vs tau, I'll be happy

I play tau and guard, but usually tau against a friends guard for the last year or so. I've yet to win. So guard can be good, especially if you are being friendly, not bringing a WAAC tau list.

What i consider a strength to the guard is they can effectively list tailor to effectively beat any 1 list, and be some measure of fun to do it. But as an all comers army, they are in need of an update (after CSM still, and hopefully a real SoB codex).

if you like the ww1/2 army in space, and are ok losing but doing good crazy things while you do it, IG are very satisfying. or you can spam masters of ordinance and just plan on hitting your own squads at least 1ce a game.

 Andy140491 wrote:
Thing is, if guard, as a standard have never really been, as a whole... 'Competitive', or at least as much as daemons, I'm starting to think I'd be better off getting daemons.

I enjoy both lots of models equally, and the idea of summoning a blood thirster for nothing is pretty awesome! And as someone mentioned, the fact that they have a history of not being 'bad' is quite appealing...

I've watched so many battle reports where guard just get smoked, over and over. Pretty much all last night and this morning. Coupled with them having bad internal balance, ect... It's making for quite an annoying situation. Or should I say, more one sided.

My friend doesn't play cheese... But he brings powerful units, he uses fire warriors en mass, and he brings two riptides. Normall one... But he has the second as an option. And tbh, he's who I play against almost 90% of the time.. So if I'm gonna struggle with guard, I don't want a constant thrashing to put me off :/

Sniper rifles are cheap and plentiful, special weapon squads get 3 in a six man group for 32 points. Daemons outside of psychic shenanigans lack a lot of ranged firepower and although Tau are the most powerful shooting army, the guard have always been the most shootiest army out there (plus eradicators have a Str 6 ap 4 ignores cover blast at AV 14 and are super cheap, so taking them is not even list tailoring!) with the exception of massed single target firepower of Tau you will shoot a FW heavy army off the board through sheer attrition and blast templates.

Imperial Guard are one of the worst armies, but you can do okayish if you list tailor heavily.

That said, just wait to our next codex - we will become THE OP army of them all! (please dont ruin my hopes GW, please)

 master of ordinance wrote:
Imperial Guard are one of the worst armies, but you can do okayish if you list tailor heavily.

That said, just wait to our next codex - we will become THE OP army of them all! (please dont ruin my hopes GW, please)

I wouldnt say they are the WORST. but I can say they are some of the most fun i''ve had in any of my many many armies (barring Orks, but they are always fun). Plus you can always play them in a dozen different ways and a dozen different builds with a lot of room for experimentation, where most armies usually limit you to maybe 2 or 3 decent builds. On top of that the level of customization you can get is astronomical, you can steal bits from a hundred different companies, ranges, toys, etc to make your guard just that much more unique. Ive seen WW2 guard, sci fi space guard, feral guard, and pretty much everything in between, there is no limit to how you can guard your guard =P