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Is there a way to get Rad grenades to stack? My opponent the other day had 2 inquisitors in a unit and assaulted me. He told me I had to take a -2 to my Toughness because both had Rad grenades.

Not if they are in the same unit, although the wording of the rule you could argue that if 2 separate inquisitors with rad nads charged you in the same turn then yes. Its a db move but it can be argued...as I said 2 inquisitors in the same unit...no.

 Tenzilla wrote:
Not if they are in the same unit, although the wording of the rule you could argue that if 2 separate inquisitors with rad nads charged you in the same turn then yes. Its a db move but it can be argued...as I said 2 inquisitors in the same unit...no.

Does it say they stack, then?

Or is it just when a unit which contains one model with this grenade, this effect happens?

The important part of the Rad Grenade rules:

During a turn in which a unit equipped with rad grenades launches an assault, or is assaulted, the enemy unit(s) suffer a -1 penalty...

The rest is just what effect it has on the enemy unit(s).

 Ghaz wrote:
The important part of the Rad Grenade rules:

During a turn in which a unit equipped with rad grenades launches an assault, or is assaulted, the enemy unit(s) suffer a -1 penalty...

The rest is just what effect it has on the enemy unit(s).

So it doesn't say they stack, so they do not stack from multiples. Basic Special Rule qualification.

Like I said...can be argued....and I am sure it will be or has been but its a DB thing to do.

2 inquisitors in the same unit will not stack. 2 inquisitors in 2 different units will stack.

 Grey Templar wrote:
2 inquisitors in the same unit will not stack. 2 inquisitors in 2 different units will stack.

Special Rules, even the ones found in a Weapon type or Wargear, do not stack unless specifically stated.

Does the Rad Grenades Wargear state that they are cumulative, I.e. stack?

Modifiers however, do stack as a base rule.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Modifiers however, do stack as a base rule.

But if the Special Rules do not stack (advanced rule), their Modifiers cannot be stacked as they are not applied together.

The special rule is on the Inquisitor, but the modifier goes on the unit being assaulted.

 Grey Templar wrote:
The special rule is on the Inquisitor, but the modifier goes on the unit being assaulted.

And the target of the Special Rule is the target unit, not the possessing one. In order for the modifier to be applied, the Special Rule must also apply. If it is already applied, it cannot apply again without saying it can.

If the Rad Grenades say they can, great. If not, then you are up crap Creek with no paddle.

The special rule cannot be applied more than once. And the wording itself does not matter if 1 or 10 rad grenade units attack, its still only -1

I contacted forgeworld a while back, and the customer service staff were unable to comment. However they did speak with the rules team for me and they confirmed that:

If more than 1 rad grenade is within 1 unit then the effect is not stackable, as it is the unit launching the assault or being assaulted.
If multiple units with rad grenades charge or are charged the the effect is stackable as there are multiple assaults.
the rad grenade effect is also taken into consideration for overwatch shooting as the 1st stage of an assault is electing to make the charge.

Hope that helps ... if not just house rule it at your club.

ALPH4 PR1M3 wrote:
I contacted forgeworld a while back, and the customer service staff were unable to comment. However they did speak with the rules team for me and they confirmed that:

If more than 1 rad grenade is within 1 unit then the effect is not stackable, as it is the unit launching the assault or being assaulted.
If multiple units with rad grenades charge or are charged the the effect is stackable as there are multiple assaults.
the rad grenade effect is also taken into consideration for overwatch shooting as the 1st stage of an assault is electing to make the charge.

Hope that helps ... if not just house rule it at your club.

Okay, that clears things up.... But thinking on troll tactics, if you assaulted a wraithknight with 8 inquisitors (or 9 death guard units) with rad grenades, you'd instant kill it?!? I find that funny, and strangely satisfying.

ALPH4 PR1M3 wrote:
I contacted forgeworld a while back, and the customer service staff were unable to comment. However they did speak with the rules team for me and they confirmed that:

If more than 1 rad grenade is within 1 unit then the effect is not stackable, as it is the unit launching the assault or being assaulted.
If multiple units with rad grenades charge or are charged the the effect is stackable as there are multiple assaults.
the rad grenade effect is also taken into consideration for overwatch shooting as the 1st stage of an assault is electing to make the charge.

Hope that helps ... if not just house rule it at your club.

That second point contradicts the BRB, so I doubt it's authenticity. The same effect from different pieces of the same wargear is never cumulative without specific permission, to which Rad Grenades do not have. You can however use Rad Grenades with another Toughness reducing effect such as a psychic power or different piece of wargear, like the Dark Angel Rad launcher.

SJ

During a turn in which a unit equipped with rad grenades launches an assault, or is assaulted,
the enemy unit(s) suffer a -1 penalty to their Toughness until the end of the phase

This is dubious at best and it is good practice to go for the weaker interpretation in murky rule situations.. So I would say don't stack.

If they did somehow. I would still not allow it for the simple reason that you would be able to kill stuff with it real easy. Just split off those 4-8 inquitors before combat and then assault as separate units. Giving the target -4 to -8 T with no way to stop it.

This goes too far even for the current state of the game.

Is the effect of wargear necessarily a special rule? Rad grenades appear only to have a description of what they do, rather than any kind of profile or note of special rule... so I'm unsure the "special rules don't stack unless specified" limitation applies.

If it is then a model clearly can't gain the benefit (which would include a negative modifier on an enemy's stats) of the same wargear more than once.

It is wargear.

To be specific it is the same wargear GK used to have it is one of those few M. Ward wargear items that survived the GK nerf by hiding in the Inquisition book. So RAW might be quite stupid.
Aside from that no one is going to accept 5 inquisitors being able to autokill any marine unit in the game.

 oldzoggy wrote:
It is wargear.

To be more specific, it is wargear with special rules. It's not that the wargear cannot stack, it's that the effects of their abilities cannot stack.

I still have the email which forgeworld replied with to confirm this, due to the fact I own 13,000pts of heresy deathguard and there rite of war allows for all characters to take rad grenades for 10 pts each they are quite important.

I play against a dozen of other heresy armies at my local, nobody has ever suggested units been overpowered, cheesy etc.

As for the charging a squad with multiple units ... it is not as easy as you think the best I have managed is 2 squads reducing marines to toughness 2, you also need to remember that this effect is only for the first round off an assault also.

No one can authenticate your email, so whether it supports your point or not has no bearing on what the BRB actually says. It is clear that the BRB does not support the stacking of moderifiers from multiple uses of the same special rule without specific permission to do so. The rules for Rad Grenades do not contain permission for the effect to be cumulative with each additional use. As such, no one will believe your email that states otherwise. We will believe an official FAQ or Errata.

SJ

GW rules tell you what you can do. I know that sounds simple, but many people want to overthink things.

Grey Templar is correct. 2 Inquisitors in one unit, the Rad Grenades rule used the word unit, and that it gives -1T.

But 2 separate inquisitors are 2 units. You apply the benefit for each. The rules don't have to say they stack. That's overthinking. You just apply the rules as they are worded.

Please provide quotes and page numbers from the rulebook to refute this.

No nobody can 'authenticate' my email apart from me and Forgeworld staff ... Would I have preferred it to be each grenade -1 toughness yes definitely but it does not work like that, does it it's still work to my legions advantage yes as they are not exactly the greatest in combat.

Individuals 'such as yourself' have already made up there mind as to how to interpret the rules they don't like ... Then why ask for a 2nd opinion on the rule?

At the end of the day this is how Forgeworld staff interpret and play there's games 'stated by the staff member I spoke on the phone with, not him personally but colleagues', and apparently this I s also used it tournaments at my local GW store (I I personally do not play in tournaments that is just what I have been told) obviously that does not mean it's the correct way, but it's how they interpret the rule.

It's the second tenet of YMDC. It's a forum rule not to use emails for rules debates here

General Hobbs wrote:
GW rules tell you what you can do. I know that sounds simple, but many people want to overthink things.

Grey Templar is correct. 2 Inquisitors in one unit, the Rad Grenades rule used the word unit, and that it gives -1T.

But 2 separate inquisitors are 2 units. You apply the benefit for each. The rules don't have to say they stack. That's overthinking. You just apply the rules as they are worded.

Please provide quotes and page numbers from the rulebook to refute this.

Please cite the Rad Grenade rule that states it's effects are cumulative with each use. My copy of the Inquistor codex seems to be missing that line.

SJ

During a turn in which a unit equipped with rad grenades launches an assault, or is assaulted, the enemy unit(s) suffer a -1 penalty to their Toughness until the end of the phase

If a Plaguebearer unit is charged by a unit with rad grenades in it, their T is reduced by one. If the same daemon unit is charged in the same subphase by a second unit that also has rad grenades, the requirement of the rule ("-1 penalty to their Toughness") has already been satisfied and so therefore it does not trigger.

No stacking.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

General Hobbs wrote:
GW rules tell you what you can do. I know that sounds simple, but many people want to overthink things.

Grey Templar is correct. 2 Inquisitors in one unit, the Rad Grenades rule used the word unit, and that it gives -1T.

But 2 separate inquisitors are 2 units. You apply the benefit for each. The rules don't have to say they stack. That's overthinking. You just apply the rules as they are worded.

Please provide quotes and page numbers from the rulebook to refute this.

Please cite the Rad Grenade rule that states it's effects are cumulative with each use. My copy of the Inquistor codex seems to be missing that line.

SJ

That's where you are overthinking things. Again, GW rules tell you exactly how to apply them. Grey Templar's examples are spot on. You don't need a rule that says the effects are cumulative.

The exact wording of the rule is this: 'During a turn in which a unit equipped with rad grenades launches an assault, or is assaulted, the enemy unit(s) suffer a -1 penalty to their Toughness until the end of the phase'

The rule is asking you if the enemy unit has been charged by a unit equipped with rad grenades. It doesn't care how many times it has been charged. Only that 'during a turn' it has been charged. Thus the modifier only applies once. It would need specific wording that tells you to apply it multiple times.

Zimko wrote:
The exact wording of the rule is this: 'During a turn in which a unit equipped with rad grenades launches an assault, or is assaulted, the enemy unit(s) suffer a -1 penalty to their Toughness until the end of the phase'

The rule is asking you if the enemy unit has been charged by a unit equipped with rad grenades. It doesn't care how many times it has been charged. Only that 'during a turn' it has been charged. Thus the modifier only applies once. It would need specific wording that tells you to apply it multiple times.

This.