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Hi Everyone,

While the wulfen book was in the rumor stage I saw that it might be legal to summon a D-thirster from Possession now. Was that made up or is that allowed now due to the curse of the wulfen update?

Best,
Steven

I'm gonna go with Yes.

-Possession states you may summon a Greater Daemon of your choice. Of those listed, one is a BloodThirster.
-The rules for Conjuration powers states that the rules for units being summoned are located in Codex: Daemons.
-CotW states the 3 types of BT replace the BT entry in Codex Daemons.

Ergo, you have a choice of Greater Deamon, if you pick a BT, you must choose which of the 3 types.

Keep in mind that a FMC summoned uses the rules for Deep strike, so you summon in Swoop mode, must change to Glide in the following turn, then wait 1 further turn to be able to charge. So a D-Thirster summoned on turn 1 cannot charge until turn 3.

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 Galef wrote:
I'm gonna go with Yes.

-Possession states you may summon a Greater Daemon of your choice. Of those listed, one is a BloodThirster.
-The rules for Conjuration powers states that the rules for units being summoned are located in Codex: Daemons.
-CotW states the 3 types of BT replace the BT entry in Codex Daemons.

Ergo, you have a choice of Greater Deamon, if you pick a BT, you must choose which of the 3 types.

Keep in mind that a FMC summoned uses the rules for Deep strike, so you summon in Swoop mode, must change to Glide in the following turn, then wait 1 further turn to be able to charge. So a D-Thirster summoned on turn 1 cannot charge until turn 3.

--

Laying out your arguments in an orderly manner with no hyperbole or vitriol, get off the internet! That actually makes sense and is pushing me towards buying the book. Ugh, It seems silly, I just want 5-6 pages for a handful of sentences.

Thanks!

I don't see any reasoning behind why you wouldn't be able to. As there isn't really a standard bloodthirster anymore, there are variants of bloodthirsters, the "standard" was renamed to unfettered fury, right? Thus with no proper "bloodthirster" we choose a bloodthirster, one of which is the D thirster.

Even if done against me I wouldn't be that upset. If it isn't the first turn it in't that crazy. It must be summoned, then land, then wait, then assault.

 Galef wrote:
I'm gonna go with Yes.

-Possession states you may summon a Greater Daemon of your choice. Of those listed, one is a BloodThirster.
-The rules for Conjuration powers states that the rules for units being summoned are located in Codex: Daemons.
-CotW states the 3 types of BT replace the BT entry in Codex Daemons.

Ergo, you have a choice of Greater Deamon, if you pick a BT, you must choose which of the 3 types.

Keep in mind that a FMC summoned uses the rules for Deep strike, so you summon in Swoop mode, must change to Glide in the following turn, then wait 1 further turn to be able to charge. So a D-Thirster summoned on turn 1 cannot charge until turn 3.

--

Wait,

you cant attack the second turn if you summon a thirster on turn 1? I know it arrives from reserves in the fastest movement via deepstrike rules. Then it goes into basic fjump mode turn 2 and then it can assualt. Or is this a guess that it just wont be in range.

I figured the summoner starts at the 12" ling (DoW deployment), then moves 6-12" forward, summons the thirster another 12" away and then it will have a 12" move on its 2nd turn.

Did i miss something?

You can't assault the turn you change from swooping to gliding. I believe it's in the page of rules detailing FMC.

 greatbigtree wrote:
You can't assault the turn you change from swooping to gliding. I believe it's in the page of rules detailing FMC.

What in the holy horse gak is this????????? Have I been playing this wrong the whole time!?

Changed in 7th.

It should be noted that Conjuring and Summoning are two separate methods of bringing new units on the board, and they don't share some of the same results.

 Charistoph wrote:
It should be noted that Conjuring and Summoning are two separate methods of bringing new units on the board, and they don't share some of the same results.

Whats the difference?

 Charistoph wrote:
It should be noted that Conjuring and Summoning are two separate methods of bringing new units on the board, and they don't share some of the same results.

There is no "difference". Conjuration is the type of power that Summoning, Incursion, Sacrifice & Possession are. Those particular powers have subtle differences, but they all follow the rules for Conjurations. It is just common for people to say "Summon" a BT, rather than "Conjured using Possession".

If you are, however, referring to how Khorne Daemonkin "summon" a BT via the Bloodtithe, you are correct in that it is different. I was not referring to the Bloodtithe as there is still some debate on when a BT can charge when "summoned" that way.

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xSoulgrinderx wrote:Whats the difference?

This:

Galef wrote:If you are, however, referring to how Khorne Daemonkin "summon" a BT via the Bloodtithe, you are correct in that it is different. I was not referring to the Bloodtithe as there is still some debate on when a BT can charge when "summoned" that way.

Yes, I was referring to Bloodtithe Summoning. I forget that there is a Power called that, too, due to having no witches in my army since 6th dropped (army change, nothing to do with Edition changes). I will attempt to add that qualifier in future references.

 Galef wrote:

If you are, however, referring to how Khorne Daemonkin "summon" a BT via the Bloodtithe, you are correct in that it is different. I was not referring to the Bloodtithe as there is still some debate on when a BT can charge when "summoned" that way.

Could you summarize how they are different? I'm not trying to create a rules debate here, just trying to see what the argument is about.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Galef wrote:

If you are, however, referring to how Khorne Daemonkin "summon" a BT via the Bloodtithe, you are correct in that it is different. I was not referring to the Bloodtithe as there is still some debate on when a BT can charge when "summoned" that way.

Could you summarize how they are different? I'm not trying to create a rules debate here, just trying to see what the argument is about.

Bloodtithe specifically states that the Bloodthirster arrives via Deep Strike. The rules for FMCs state that any FMC who deep strikes arrives "via Deep Strike Reserve" always arrives swooping.I think some people point out that the Deep Strike rules state that another term for deep strike is deep strike reserve, while others disagree because the BT is never in reserve because it doesn't exist until it appears, and that rule thereby doesn't apply, and it can choose what mode it arrives in. There was a gigantic thread on it a while back, I think it got locked eventually.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Galef wrote:

If you are, however, referring to how Khorne Daemonkin "summon" a BT via the Bloodtithe, you are correct in that it is different. I was not referring to the Bloodtithe as there is still some debate on when a BT can charge when "summoned" that way.

Could you summarize how they are different? I'm not trying to create a rules debate here, just trying to see what the argument is about.

Bloodtithe Summoning has them "immediately arrives via Deep Strike within range of the specified unit(s) on the board", while Conjuring is "the new unit then arrives via Deep Strike, within the power’s maximum range; the new unit is under your control and is treated as having arrived from Reserves for all rules purposes."

It may not seem like much, but it IS tied to the difference in the Reserves connection. FMCs are only specifically Swooping when arriving from Deep Strike Reserves, while nothing specific if they Deep Strike another way or from another source.

Of course, this requires recognizing two different methods of Deep Strike such as the difference between Drop Pods and Gate of Infinity, and that is the same difference between the two. Conjuring brings them in the same as it would a Drop Pod, while Bloodtithe summoning brings them in the same as Gate of Infinity. But there are some who do not recognize there being a difference.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Galef wrote:

If you are, however, referring to how Khorne Daemonkin "summon" a BT via the Bloodtithe, you are correct in that it is different. I was not referring to the Bloodtithe as there is still some debate on when a BT can charge when "summoned" that way.

Could you summarize how they are different? I'm not trying to create a rules debate here, just trying to see what the argument is about.

Yeah Conjured units count as having arrived from reserves, Bloodtithed units don't. So the Bloodtithed units aren't forced to arrive in Swooping mode as per the FMC deployment rules.

 Tonberry7 wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Galef wrote:

If you are, however, referring to how Khorne Daemonkin "summon" a BT via the Bloodtithe, you are correct in that it is different. I was not referring to the Bloodtithe as there is still some debate on when a BT can charge when "summoned" that way.

Could you summarize how they are different? I'm not trying to create a rules debate here, just trying to see what the argument is about.

Yeah Conjured units count as having arrived from reserves, Bloodtithed units don't. So the Bloodtithed units aren't forced to arrive in Swooping mode as per the FMC deployment rules.

Dont they still follow the rules for DS and that makes them swooping?

You only "count as" Swooping if you arrive from DS reserve

EIther way as no nomination on mode is made - counts as swooping is not a nomination made b ythe player, after all - you just run, and change to swooping.

The difference between the two rules is that conjuration specifies the model arrives via Deep Strike Reserves.

Blood tithe summoning does not say reserves, it says "arrives via deep strike"

But if we continue along this line of discussion, fling or someone else will come here and chastise us.

Some people think deep strike and deep strike reserves are the same thing. Some people don't. That's the argument at hand.

 xSoulgrinderx wrote:
Dont they still follow the rules for DS and that makes them swooping?

Yes, and no.

Deep Strike Reserves is when the unit is placed in Reserves and declared to be Deep Striking, or at least that is what the full sentence says.

Arriving by Deep Strike, though, is its own section which only cares about the unit being in Reserves for the purpose of rolling to see if it comes on. Rolling for Reserves is not necessary, though, when one is arriving immediately, which most of these rules state.

Swooping is only required when coming from Deep Strike Reserves. So, technically speaking, a Lord of Change using Gate of Infinity would not be required to Swooping when placed on the table.

Ok, no further discussion is necessary about that.

 Charistoph wrote:
So, technically speaking, a Lord of Change using Gate of Infinity would not be required to Swooping when placed on the table.

TECHNICALLY speaking, a LoC cannot access Sanctic.