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Revise Gravgun to read: "Rapidfire" instead of "Salvo"
Revise Gravcannon to read "Heavy 1, Large Blast."

Boom. Grav just became reasonable.

That would defeat the whole purpose. MCs are overpowered and marines and the Imperium in general have precious few ways to handle them. Realize that most other Imperial heavy weapons suck in practice.

As soon as a 3+ armor MC sticks its toe in ruins, regular grav guns become quite poor actually. Only the grav cannon has the wounding potential to power through cover.

If you want to make grav cannons less obnoxious, ban invisibility and gate of infinity and Draigo from the game. And the libby that picks his powers. Grav cents fixed right there.

Martel732 wrote:
That would defeat the whole purpose. MCs are overpowered and marines and the Imperium in general have precious few ways to handle them. Realize that most other Imperial heavy weapons suck in practice.

And against MEQ and TEQ non-MCs, grav weapons are OP, especially when spammed on bikes.

As soon as a 3+ armor MC sticks its toe in ruins, regular grav guns become quite poor actually. Only the grav cannon has the wounding potential to power through cover.

If you want to make grav cannons less obnoxious, ban invisibility and gate of infinity and Draigo from the game. And the libby that picks his powers. Grav cents fixed right there.

The solution to all of this is to nerf the feth out of MCs, not to keep grav weapons at their current power level.

Meqs and Teqs are already boned in 7th. Grav is far from the only OP thing against them. Scatterlasers, D-scythes, IA pie plates, etc make these elite infantry largely target dummies.

I don't think MC users are keen on that idea. If you make the centurions actually able to be neutralized, then the cannons aren't as bad. T5 2+ W2 is not that much harder to kill than a broadside.

i think the issue just needs to be the cost, i feel that grav guns and combi's need a 5 point price jack, and bikers should lose the ability to poses one out of balance. and grav amp equipped units need their gravs to go up by 10 (with sternguard paying the current price as well as the land raider excel no changing as it was already over priced). plasma pistols can stay as is because nobody was taking them anyway.

There is NO way someone just said Combi-ANYTHING needed a price jack. Combi-Weapons should be 5 points MAX.

You REALLY wanna nerf Grav? Salvo 2/2. Done.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
There is NO way someone just said Combi-ANYTHING needed a price jack. Combi-Weapons should be 5 points MAX.

You REALLY wanna nerf Grav? Salvo 2/2. Done.

combi weapons at 10 points is a fine cost, driving them down further doesnt only remove room for pistol weapons to drop it makes pistols permenantly irrelevant. 10 is fine, jacking the combi grav to 15 and the grav gun to 20 would make them a lot more balanced. veterans get the 25 cost for cannons because their veterans of the marines the armoury is laid wide for them and no expnse is paid to give them easiest access to the weapons they need. grav weapons shouldnt be in the hands of bikers strictly out of balance issues. bike armies for marines have gotten out of ahnd, its time to scale them back. the land raider excel was already overcosted this if anything could be looked at as an indirect price reduction on it.

this would give room for pistols to rise n shine again, by cutting them in price to 5 which makes them much more interesting to take, and with an adjustment to storm bolters into being assault 3 we might see some balance return to the shooting weapon force of space marines that has gotten rather crazy. marines biggest flaw as a universal army is that their weapons upgrades and wargear prices have gotten all messed up, and doing a serious price re-assessment of everything not just dropping prices on all the objectively better guns and writing off the rest would do anyone any good at all. there has to be pain before there can be healing.

but marines arent the only army with problems, eldar, orks, chaos marines. theres so many armies that need serious adjustments and doing it to one army and not to the others means we arent going to see the game get better

I don;'t mind the rate of fire of grav cannons, or that they ignore armour.

I just find their wounding mechanic a little odd. I'd rather something like a strength test or similar.

Make it so grav shakens on 6s instead of immobilize. This hurts their standard vehicle killing potential so they need more variety in their weapon loadouts instead of "Spam all the grav". Also maybe have grav amps giving +1 to the wound roll instead of rerolling.

Dial back the number of shots each get for starters. 2/2 for the basic gun would be fair, while the cannon should be at most 4 shots max.

Secondly, change the wounding mechanic from 'wounds vs. armour save' to 'wounds vs. unit type'.
That way you get something more akin to;
Regular Infantry/Jump Infantry/Cav/Beasts - 5+
'Bulky' models - 4+
Very/Extremely Bulky - 3+
Monstrous Creature/GMC - 2+

Now it stays as the dedicated 'big guy' killer, but is no longer scything down basic MEQ's/TEQ's like they're ****ing Grots!

They need the current number of shots because most of the time, GMCs are still getting two saves vs AP 2. With weapons like lascannons and multimeltas incapable of inflicting multiple wounds on the most broken models in the game, grav can't be nerfed. With cover and free FNP, I'd be tempted to argue grav needs MORE shots to do their job.

Or rather, Grav should be nerfed alongside those 2 MCs (Tide and WK) that you really care about.

Tyranids can get 2+ cover on their MCs in ruins. I've ran into to this a few times now. That makes grav pretty much worthless without a centstar with perfect timing.

Here's the thing: grav cannons are what heavy weapons should REALLY be like. Destructive. Feared. Lascannons are multimeltas and bright lances are now jokes in the game because of the new vehicle table and all the MCs running around. Even tyranid MCs don't care about weapons that take off one wound at a time; you'll never get there in time.

So I care that all MCs shrug off my heaviest weapons like it was no big deal. Because I don't get grav cannons. Because BA. I don't even get them and I don't want them nerfed because MCs have to respect something in this game. If anything, MORE weapons should be MORE destructive. Not less.

Martel732 wrote:
Tyranids can get 2+ cover on their MCs in ruins. I've ran into to this a few times now. That makes grav pretty much worthless without a centstar with perfect timing.

Here's the thing: grav cannons are what heavy weapons should REALLY be like. Destructive. Feared. Lascannons are multimeltas and bright lances are now jokes in the game because of the new vehicle table and all the MCs running around. Even tyranid MCs don't care about weapons that take off one wound at a time; you'll never get there in time.

So I care that all MCs shrug off my heaviest weapons like it was no big deal. Because I don't get grav cannons. Because BA. I don't even get them and I don't want them nerfed because MCs have to respect something in this game. If anything, MORE weapons should be MORE destructive. Not less.

No Martel, they don't.

The basic rules need to address the issue regarding how easily MC's gain cover saves. That's it.
GMC's (and by extention SHV's), should not be usable in games of 1500pts and under, as they're simply too unbalancing... Either you end up having the tools to deal with it, kill it right off the bat, and then romp to an easy victory by removing that single 350+pts model, or else you don't, and that 350+pts monstrosity pretty much stomps its way through your army by itself.
Furthermore, add in a rule that no more than 25% of a list can be spent on GMC's/SHV's. Done.

Problem MC's such as the Riptide, Wraithknight, Dreadknight et all, need to be addressed by their parent codex. Make them cost appropriate for their abilities.

What we DON'T need, is for weapons like Scatter Lasers and Grav to become the baseline weapons in the game!! At that point, we may as well just all play Imperial Knights for 's sake.

Martel732 wrote:
Tyranids can get 2+ cover on their MCs in ruins. I've ran into to this a few times now. That makes grav pretty much worthless without a centstar with perfect timing.

Here's the thing: grav cannons are what heavy weapons should REALLY be like. Destructive. Feared. Lascannons are multimeltas and bright lances are now jokes in the game because of the new vehicle table and all the MCs running around. Even tyranid MCs don't care about weapons that take off one wound at a time; you'll never get there in time.

So I care that all MCs shrug off my heaviest weapons like it was no big deal. Because I don't get grav cannons. Because BA. I don't even get them and I don't want them nerfed because MCs have to respect something in this game. If anything, MORE weapons should be MORE destructive. Not less.

This statement seems more from your inability to handle MCs than from any balance issue. BAs have no trouble dealing with most any MC.

Grav is broken due to how easy it is to get. Space Marines, particularly bike units, spam it because it kills everything. 1 Rounding MCs with Grav Bikers is not a "balanced" weapon. Make Grav more limited to get. Characters and Centurions and it would be much better.

Fragile wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Tyranids can get 2+ cover on their MCs in ruins. I've ran into to this a few times now. That makes grav pretty much worthless without a centstar with perfect timing.

Here's the thing: grav cannons are what heavy weapons should REALLY be like. Destructive. Feared. Lascannons are multimeltas and bright lances are now jokes in the game because of the new vehicle table and all the MCs running around. Even tyranid MCs don't care about weapons that take off one wound at a time; you'll never get there in time.

So I care that all MCs shrug off my heaviest weapons like it was no big deal. Because I don't get grav cannons. Because BA. I don't even get them and I don't want them nerfed because MCs have to respect something in this game. If anything, MORE weapons should be MORE destructive. Not less.

This statement seems more from your inability to handle MCs than from any balance issue. BAs have no trouble dealing with most any MC.

Grav is broken due to how easy it is to get. Space Marines, particularly bike units, spam it because it kills everything. 1 Rounding MCs with Grav Bikers is not a "balanced" weapon. Make Grav more limited to get. Characters and Centurions and it would be much better.

You clearly don't understand how gimped BA are. BA have trouble dealing with anything that 's considered good in 7th ed. What's your plan? Shoot them with ROF 1 melta guns? And then get assaulted and stomped off the table? Let me know how that works out for you.

Grav bikers rarely one round MCs because of cover. You only really have a shot if you cough up for the combi, and even then the odds are stacked against you. They've made the rules for MCs such that I absolutely can not have them hitting my units if I want any chance of winning.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Experiment 626 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Tyranids can get 2+ cover on their MCs in ruins. I've ran into to this a few times now. That makes grav pretty much worthless without a centstar with perfect timing.

Here's the thing: grav cannons are what heavy weapons should REALLY be like. Destructive. Feared. Lascannons are multimeltas and bright lances are now jokes in the game because of the new vehicle table and all the MCs running around. Even tyranid MCs don't care about weapons that take off one wound at a time; you'll never get there in time.

So I care that all MCs shrug off my heaviest weapons like it was no big deal. Because I don't get grav cannons. Because BA. I don't even get them and I don't want them nerfed because MCs have to respect something in this game. If anything, MORE weapons should be MORE destructive. Not less.

No Martel, they don't.

The basic rules need to address the issue regarding how easily MC's gain cover saves. That's it.
GMC's (and by extention SHV's), should not be usable in games of 1500pts and under, as they're simply too unbalancing... Either you end up having the tools to deal with it, kill it right off the bat, and then romp to an easy victory by removing that single 350+pts model, or else you don't, and that 350+pts monstrosity pretty much stomps its way through your army by itself.
Furthermore, add in a rule that no more than 25% of a list can be spent on GMC's/SHV's. Done.

Problem MC's such as the Riptide, Wraithknight, Dreadknight et all, need to be addressed by their parent codex. Make them cost appropriate for their abilities.

What we DON'T need, is for weapons like Scatter Lasers and Grav to become the baseline weapons in the game!! At that point, we may as well just all play Imperial Knights for 's sake.

Look at the Wolfen. They make a mockery of most any other assault unit, except for a select few. This is the direction the game is going. Not the way you are proposing. Scatterlasers and grav already ARE the baseline weapons because the non-scatterlaser old school weapons don't cause enough damage to be worthwhile. Do math on how many lascannons it takes to kill a typical MC, and then factor in LOS, then factor in the cost of lascannons, and then factor in how many are actually in any given list. Single shot weapons are mostly a bad joke now.

Wolfen are also pretty strong vs grav, btw.

Also, I've never seen a GMC die "right off the bat". They are getting two saves against almost EVERYTHING.

Martel chill out!!!

Blood angels can easily stomp MCs,
Wulfen aren't that strong and honestly if eldar scare you then maybe you have to alter your tactics. I'm pulling wins with a Slaanesh focused chaos marine and I have far less toys than you and I can slaughter my way through MCs and Eldar the only that I haven't cracked yet is Tau.

Grav needs a nerf bad, there isn't a strong counter to it. Marine armies cry getting hit by it so bad. ROF is too strong compared to anything else

 Samuhell wrote:
Martel chill out!!!

Blood angels can easily stomp MCs,
Wulfen aren't that strong and honestly if eldar scare you then maybe you have to alter your tactics. I'm pulling wins with a Slaanesh focused chaos marine and I have far less toys than you and I can slaughter my way through MCs and Eldar the only that I haven't cracked yet is Tau.

Grav needs a nerf bad, there isn't a strong counter to it. Marine armies cry getting hit by it so bad. ROF is too strong compared to anything else

Look, the classic L2P argument! I love these things!

Cover is a pretty good counter grav guns.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Samuhell wrote:
Martel chill out!!!

Blood angels can easily stomp MCs,
Wulfen aren't that strong and honestly if eldar scare you then maybe you have to alter your tactics. I'm pulling wins with a Slaanesh focused chaos marine and I have far less toys than you and I can slaughter my way through MCs and Eldar the only that I haven't cracked yet is Tau.

Grav needs a nerf bad, there isn't a strong counter to it. Marine armies cry getting hit by it so bad. ROF is too strong compared to anything else

Look, the classic L2P argument! I love these things!

Honestly Slayer I would love to discuss tactics and stratagems with Martel about how he goes around these issues. I'm not saying learn to play but I am saying that you can't deal with every problem the same way. evaluating your tactics in a strategy board game is part of developing your army and how you overcome problems. How you've reacted to my initial post is rather immature with a lack of focus on the topic, we are meant to be discussing grav weaponry in the game and if you want to discuss my other point then feel free to PM me

I would be fine halving the number of shots (on cannons) if every unsaved wound did 1+d3 wounds to MCs and GCs.

If you think grav needs a nerf that badly, maybe I should be giving you strategy advice. The regular grav gun is far, far from overpowering. Grav cannon units without invisibility are huge targets.

Martel732 wrote:
Cover is a pretty good counter grav guns.

It was until the Hunters eye came along. Played in a tournament recently and of the 4 games I played 2 were Marines and both utilized Hunters Eye White scars Cents...which also had Hit and Run...so funny to see cents move 14" after assaulting. Even tiggy has a good shot at getting ignore cover powers. Drop cents with libby and hunters eye can delete one or even two MC with the omniscope and it is extremely common from what I've seen. Grav cannons are very strong. I think removing the grav amp is a good start.

Experiment 626 wrote:
Dial back the number of shots each get for starters. 2/2 for the basic gun would be fair, while the cannon should be at most 4 shots max.

Secondly, change the wounding mechanic from 'wounds vs. armour save' to 'wounds vs. unit type'.
That way you get something more akin to;
Regular Infantry/Jump Infantry/Cav/Beasts - 5+
'Bulky' models - 4+
Very/Extremely Bulky - 3+
Monstrous Creature/GMC - 2+

Now it stays as the dedicated 'big guy' killer, but is no longer scything down basic MEQ's/TEQ's like they're ****ing Grots!

This right here is the right way to go. Let Grav-weapons murder MCs and GMCs but dial it back against infantry. Shot number reduction might not even be needed.

Part of this shows why nerfing things with a scalpel doesn't work well. Yes Grav cannon cents when combined with invisibility and other powers and the hunters eye is powerful. But look at how many pieces are there and question whether the issue is the cannons them self or the fact the GW allows players to take combos that on there own are powerful but have down sides but when combined with something else quickly removes any weakness.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Part of this shows why nerfing things with a scalpel doesn't work well. Yes Grav cannon cents when combined with invisibility and other powers and the hunters eye is powerful. But look at how many pieces are there and question whether the issue is the cannons them self or the fact the GW allows players to take combos that on there own are powerful but have down sides but when combined with something else quickly removes any weakness.

Even BA can deal with unbuffed grav cents. Yeah, they'll murder one thing, or maybe two with the omniscope sucks, but if counterfire or assault actually worked, it would be manageable. Do the math on how many BS4 grav cannon shot it takes to bring down a GMC. It's surprising.

A full squad of grav cents, with Prescience, statistically won't quite kill a Wraithknight in a single shooting phase, so yeah. (Not counting the combi-grav, if the Librarian casting Prescience has one.) OTOH, should models able to survive a single shooting phase exist?

again that's a combo. your comparing how they perform against one unit with no buff, while allowing for the cents to have psychic powers and likely a drop pod since they are slow and would be unlikely to get close enough to fire since the WR is a lot faster.

An expensive one-use combo.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
again that's a combo. your comparing how they perform against one unit with no buff, while allowing for the cents to have psychic powers and likely a drop pod since they are slow and would be unlikely to get close enough to fire since the WR is a lot faster.

It's not a uncommon combo however, and it is capable of almost one-shoting what is considered hands down, to the be the single most criminally undercosted & over-preforming model in the game!
If as it stands, Gravcents with a single Psychic augment can do that, then they're far too good vs. everything below the Wraithknight. (ie: 99% of the entire rest of the game!!)

Grav - especially the cannons w/amp, are right up there with Scatbikes as one of the most undercosted & hugely obnoxious things to face currently in the game. The only thing it's really weak too, (cheap, low save grunts), are the one thing that Marines in general have never needed help killing anyways.
Add to how badly OP Grav is, that the one army that gets access to it also has the most (ab)usable Battle Bro's combinations available in the game.

And let's not kid ourselves either... MC's in general aren't that amazing for the most part. There's really just;
- Riptide
- Dreadknight
- LoC w/Bangstick + double Greater Rewards
- 3+ Flyrants
And then the Wraithknight + Stormsurge which are the main problem GMC's.

Everything below them is easily manageable, or else garbage heap levels of playability.