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So I don't understand initiative and how the values/ modifiers were assigned.... For example a gaurdsmen is initiative 3 where a super human space marine is initiative 4, but when they are both equipped with a power fist or axe they hit at initiative 1.. So it slows down a gaurdsmen less because it goes to initiative 1 from initiative 3 where a space marine goes from initiative 4 to initiative 1, or a space marine dosnt know how to punch. Also why dowant the first round of combat happen at the same initiative step I mean if I was charging a group of guys I would defiantly get my unwieldy weapon ready to swing when we get into hand to hand range. It goes the same the other way if I was watching a bunch of guys run at me I would be ready as well.

Just personal thoughts on initiative.

It's for balance, mostly. If you could ignore unwieldy on the charge, then you would, for instance, have S8 Terminators striking at I4, which would ID a lot of multi-wound units and have a pretty good chance at doing so, being AP2 and having multiple attacks each (and presumably multiple models). You can argue Monstrous Creatures are like that, but most of the time they're only in the S6 realm so it isn't as egregious and they won't have as many attacks as an unwieldy filled unit. Also, just imagine a D-Thirster striking at its base initiative 9....different rule, but the same effect for that very reason.

Try hitting someone with a fist when he's holding a stick.

Fluff-wise I think that it depends on the weapon. A powerfist gives you no reach compared to virtually any other combat weapon, meaning that your opponent could have time to strike before you get close enough to actually punch them. For something like a thunder hammer it could be because they are large and unwieldy weapons. Even preparing to strike ahead of time isn't foolproof as your ability to redirect your swing should your opponent move could be problematic.

Really though, I think it's mostly just a balance thing. A marine is still punching better than the guardsman due to his higher WS. But really if unwieldy weapons all lost that rule they would become very powerful. Some might argue that they need the buff, but it would make regular power weapons seem really lame by comparison.

I think there are many rules that seem odd - for example, rolling for armour after rolling to wound. Shouldn't the armour come first, and then wounding?

But it doesn't matter too much, and is done for game mechanics reasons.

I'd argue that the initiative rule and the fact that PFs strike last is one of the most balanced rules in the game, and that's why it hasn't changed for many years.

I like you a lot.

Fantasy used to be:
fist round of combat -> Charger strikes first
Second+ round of combat -> Initiative

This + Non random charge ranges + no premeasuring was great. I hated it when they changed this. This was what made me stop fantasy.

The distance guessing was the single worst thing in old editions.
It mechanically punished people with eyesight problem. Hurting people in game for their physical issues (who I assure you hurt enough as it is) serves no purpose.

 koooaei wrote:
Try hitting someone with a fist when he's holding a stick.

But if you both have fists it doesn't matter that one of you is a super trained genetically modified superhuman and the other is a regular weedy human?

The unwieldy rule (like snap shots and the entire AP system) is from GW not wanting to use modifiers so instead making everything uniform when it should not be uniform.

But then given GW's target audience is too stupid to add items individually to an online cart and thus needs a "one click bundle", it's not surprising they also think we are too stupid to add, subtract, multiply and divide.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Try hitting someone with a fist when he's holding a stick.

But then given GW's target audience is too stupid to add items individually to an online cart and thus needs a "one click bundle", it's not surprising they also think we are too stupid to add, subtract, multiply and divide.

Really? Give it a rest bro.

 BoomWolf wrote:
The distance guessing was the single worst thing in old editions.
It mechanically punished people with eyesight problem. Hurting people in game for their physical issues (who I assure you hurt enough as it is) serves no purpose.

It did add a lot to the game. The thing it is that FFG seems to agree with it and used in in their new game. And people love it.

whirlwindstruggle wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Try hitting someone with a fist when he's holding a stick.

But then given GW's target audience is too stupid to add items individually to an online cart and thus needs a "one click bundle", it's not surprising they also think we are too stupid to add, subtract, multiply and divide.

Really? Give it a rest bro.

I laughed. A good analysis of what gw seems to think of their consumers

 BoomWolf wrote:
The distance guessing was the single worst thing in old editions. It mechanically punished people with eyesight problem.

Aye, those good at measuring distance at a guess had an advantage. And others got creative in different ways to get measurements - we had one guy who pulled his tape out to, say, 36" when moving so he'd also see what he could shoot at and/or charge later, for example.

Initiative is just another game mechanic we have to deal with, and stats going from 1-10 in a d6 system is quite clumsy. A +1 (or -1) to a stat or roll is a HUGE difference.

The fun thing about not using initiative in the first round of combat is that the game suddenly becomes more about movement and tactics. Instead of building killer blobz that consume anything that comes close to them in close combat.

The key reason for oddities like the Initiative rules and the To Hot, To Wound, To Save rules, are that 40K is based on WHFB which was written in the early 1980s and was not a sophisticated set of concepts even back then.

GW have not changed some of these basic ideas because as long as 40K and WHFB were the biggest selling games, there was no need to.

 FTGTEvan wrote:

whirlwindstruggle wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Try hitting someone with a fist when he's holding a stick.

But then given GW's target audience is too stupid to add items individually to an online cart and thus needs a "one click bundle", it's not surprising they also think we are too stupid to add, subtract, multiply and divide.

Really? Give it a rest bro.

I laughed. A good analysis of what gw seems to think of their consumers

LOL, thanks.

I think GW have this idea that modifiers are too complicated or something so it has to be "make it Bs1" or "makes you Ini1" instead of "-2 Bs" or "-2 Ini".

The problem is the more you try and avoid things like modifiers the more you have to make a million and one special rules and special exceptions to actually account for the variety in what can be brought to the table (or just quash that variety completely, if you don't care about variety then it doesn't matter as much but 40k's strong point for a while now has been about the expansive range of models from an expansive range of armies you can bring).

Movement rules come in the same category to me. We used to have a movement characteristic, it wasn't complicated or difficult. IT was dropped in 3rd for the name of homogenisation, but then over time the movement rules have gotten more convoluted and have more and more exceptions to the core rules that it would actually be less complicated if we went back to giving models a movement characteristic as part of their profile again.