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So I've never used my Phantom. Even when they were the thing to use, I never really felt motivated to bring it out, but then again, I rarely flew Empire ships until recently. After doing somewhat better than expected flying Imperials at a store championship (placed 3rd, which for being relatively inexperienced with Empire I feel is pretty good), they're kind of close to being my favourite faction to fly, almost overtaking Scum. I loved flying Vader, so I want him in my squadron if possible, and I really like the concept of the Phantom, so I wanted to give one a try even with most people shifting away from them. So I've cobbled this list together, and I'll be flying it tomorrow evening, hoping it's the start of a squadron I can build upon to turn into something more competitive.

Thing is, I'm really unsure of the Tempest Sq. Pilot. I had 21 points left, which isn't enough for two TIEs, or even some of the named mid-range pilots so another TIE Advanced with consistent hits seemed...okay? The lack of initiative bid could hurt though. So I'd really like some help on that matter, as I am not quite sure what would mesh here.

[TIE Advanced] Vader w/ ATC, Title, Predator, EU (37)

[TIE Phantom] Whisper w/ VI, Rebel Captive, FCS, ACD (42)

[TIE Advanced] Tempest Sq. Pilot w/ Accuracy Corrector, Title (21)

100 points total.

Having Initiative is very important for the Phantom for crew on it I would recommend Agent Kallus targeting a opposing pilot with Pilot Skill equal or higher than the phantoms, or Recon Specialist for the extra focus.

Sordyn wrote:
Having Initiative is very important for the Phantom for crew on it I would recommend Agent Kallus targeting a opposing pilot with Pilot Skill equal or higher than the phantoms, or Recon Specialist for the extra focus.

That's a decent suggestion, but he'd be better off dropping Preadtor from Vader and giving him VI instead. That will bring him to 98 points, which is the sweet spot for Phantom lists.

Maybe both? Kallus is a pretty great crew, basically being a Poe-lite. That way Whisper can hold onto a focus token longer, just in case?

And you'd be hard pressed to find something moving after or shooting before VI Vader with a hefty initiative bid. Could slap Mk. II on the Tempest pilot and still have that 2pt. bid.

I agree with Sordyn, you want an initiative bid for the Phantom. The easy way to get that is to take VI with Vader. This has a double purpose: Vader is moving and shooting at PS11, and can effectively counter enemy ships that out-PS whisper (e.g., Poe, Corran).

Rebel Captive is an okay choice, but Whisper gains defensive benefits from offensive upgrades. Both Kallus and Recon Specialist can help you generate enough hits to ensure that Whisper will generate a defensive focus token from her pilot ability. This is especially valuable when Whisper doesn't have a target lock (e.g., during the first shooting phase). You could also dump your initiative bid in favor of upgrading all the way to Gunner, but this will make you weaker against lists with PS9 aces.

The Tempest is a good filler. Another decent 21pt option is Zeta Leader with Wired.

Darth Vader (29)
Veteran Instincts (1)
Advanced Targeting Computer (1)
Engine Upgrade (4)
TIE/x1 (0)

"Whisper" (32)
Veteran Instincts (1)
Fire-Control System (2)
Recon Specialist (3)
Advanced Cloaking Device (4)

Tempest Squadron Pilot (21)
Accuracy Corrector (0)
TIE/x1 (0)

Total: 98

I keep looking at your first list and I want to fit a 26 point Omega Leader into it... I just don't see it without swapping Vader for the Inquisitor.
My experience is that Tempests need to be flown in squads. Wired on Zeta is pretty good too.
Kallus on Whisper if you can.
VI on Vader for sure.

"Whisper" (32)
Veteran Instincts (1)
Fire-Control System (2)
Agent Kallus (2)
Advanced Cloaking Device (4)

"Inquisitor" (25)
Autothrusters (2)
Predator (3)

"Omega Leader" (21)
Juke (2)
Comm Relay (3)

That would be a total of 97... you could use 3 points to add shield or stealth device on Omega Leader... or be sure that you get the choice of initiative.

 Anpu-adom wrote:
I keep looking at your first list and I want to fit a 26 point Omega Leader into it... I just don't see it without swapping Vader for the Inquisitor.

"Inquisitor" (25)
Autothrusters (2)
Predator (3)

Inquisitor without push and the title? Heresy. It's only 1 point more and you get TL/evade and focus or another action. Massively better than rerolling one die with Predator.

I think Whisper does everything Omega Leader does but better. She's super tanky, she has a 4 die primary and she always has a target lock. But Whisper is still tanky against multiple enemies because she gets 4 dice and her focus all the time. OL has to have a TL on whoever is shooting at her. If I'm bringing Whisper, I'd leave OL at home.

Oh, and OP, you might want to consider an intelligence agent for a crew. So you always decloak the right way.

 bocatt wrote:

 Anpu-adom wrote:
I keep looking at your first list and I want to fit a 26 point Omega Leader into it... I just don't see it without swapping Vader for the Inquisitor.

"Inquisitor" (25)
Autothrusters (2)
Predator (3)

Inquisitor without push and the title? Heresy. It's only 1 point more and you get TL/evade and focus or another action. Massively better than rerolling one die with Predator.

I think Whisper does everything Omega Leader does but better. She's super tanky, she has a 4 die primary and she always has a target lock. But Whisper is still tanky against multiple enemies because she gets 4 dice and her focus all the time. OL has to have a TL on whoever is shooting at her. If I'm bringing Whisper, I'd leave OL at home.

Oh, and OP, you might want to consider an intelligence agent for a crew. So you always decloak the right way.

Yep yep yep... Sorry, asleep at the keyboard there.
Inquisitor
Title
Autothrusters
PTL... taking the target lock does a good enough job modifying dice that you don't need predator.

 Anpu-adom wrote:
I keep looking at your first list and I want to fit a 26 point Omega Leader into it... I just don't see it without swapping Vader for the Inquisitor.

You can do it, you just need to drop Engine Upgrade from Vader. It's a give and take - Vader loses a lot of his re-positional capability, but you gain a lot from using Omega Leader over the Tempest. This is, incidentally, the list I've been using at the last couple of store championships I've been to, and it works out pretty okay.

Darth Vader (29)
Veteran Instincts (1)
Advanced Targeting Computer (1)
TIE/x1 (0)

"Whisper" (32)
Veteran Instincts (1)
Fire-Control System (2)
Recon Specialist (3)
Advanced Cloaking Device (4)

"Omega Leader" (21)
Juke (2)
Comm Relay (3)

Total: 99

View in Yet Another Squad Builder


The Inquisitor will be an obviously interesting option at the 27 to 32 point level. I should suggest: take the Title for the Inquisitor's TIE. Downgrade Predator to Juke, it will free up the extra point you need. I have a feeling that the choice build will be PTL, which fits nicely into the same slot that EU-less Vader currently sits.

The Inquisitor (25)
Push the Limit (3)
Autothrusters (2)
TIE/v1 (1)

Total: 31

 bocatt wrote:
I think Whisper does everything Omega Leader does but better. She's super tanky, she has a 4 die primary and she always has a target lock. But Whisper is still tanky against multiple enemies because she gets 4 dice and her focus all the time. OL has to have a TL on whoever is shooting at her.

Whisper is a couple of things, but tanky she is not.

She has two hull and two shields with two agility. Sure, being cloaked ups that to four, but in a metagame filled with PS 10 Poe and PS 11 Vader, you aren't always going to have that benefit. Omega Leader can effectively shut down any ace in the game; he takes away C-3PO from Han, ATC from Vader; Poe's pilot ability, all of Fel's tokens, Whisper's focus and target locks, etc. Even though swarms have always been good, the metagame is favoring high-PS ace builds that all feature a low ship count. That alone makes Omega Leader more of threat since he can shut down a good portion of your opponent's list and force them to rely on naked dice.

If I'm bringing Whisper, I'd leave OL at home.

My current list features Whisper and Omega Leader and I took it to a 4-1 finish and fifth place overall at a 36-player Store Championship last month. I even bested Paul Heaver with it.

Those two pilot work well together.

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:

 bocatt wrote:
I think Whisper does everything Omega Leader does but better. She's super tanky, she has a 4 die primary and she always has a target lock. But Whisper is still tanky against multiple enemies because she gets 4 dice and her focus all the time. OL has to have a TL on whoever is shooting at her.

Whisper is a couple of things, but tanky she is not.

She has two hull and two shields with two agility. Sure, being cloaked ups that to four, but in a metagame filled with PS 10 Poe and PS 11 Vader, you aren't always going to have that benefit. Omega Leader can effectively shut down any ace in the game; he takes away C-3PO from Han, ATC from Vader; Poe's pilot ability, all of Fel's tokens, Whisper's focus and target locks, etc. Even though swarms have always been good, the metagame is favoring high-PS ace builds that all feature a low ship count. That alone makes Omega Leader more of threat since he can shut down a good portion of your opponent's list and force them to rely on naked dice.

If I'm bringing Whisper, I'd leave OL at home.

My current list features Whisper and Omega Leader and I took it to a 4-1 finish and fifth place overall at a 36-player Store Championship last month. I even bested Paul Heaver with it.

Those two pilot work well together.

Interesting. Amazing how much local meta changes our insights yeah? Omega Leader doesn't last longer than a regular TIE F/O against two twin laser turrets. TLTs roll unmodified dice at least half the time anyway and still manage to strip tokens and push damage on 3 agility ships. The Phantom on the other hand (barring terrible flying) is always cloaked against TLTs. The highest PS common carrier being PS8 Miranda. Whisper stands a better chance, especially with FCS allowing her to save a second focus for defense or take an evade and still get hits through.

But yes, I can't argue that Omega Leader is a great buy for 26 points with the proliferation of PS9-11 threats. And if Omega Leader survives to the end game with only 1 enemy ship remaining then the match is pretty much already won. Barring insane luck.

Might I ask what your list is? I'm not going to use it but I'm curious about what you bring to complement Whisper and OL.

 bocatt wrote:
Interesting. Amazing how much local meta changes our insights yeah?

Sure, but Whisper still isn't tanky. Fat Han? That's a tank. Named Phantoms don't really have any tricks to avoid other than green dice (which are fickle) and they certainly can't take any considerable damage.

Omega Leader doesn't last longer than a regular TIE F/O against two twin laser turrets. TLTs roll unmodified dice at least half the time anyway and still manage to strip tokens and push damage on 3 agility ships. The Phantom on the other hand (barring terrible flying) is always cloaked against TLTs. The highest PS common carrier being PS8 Miranda. Whisper stands a better chance, especially with FCS allowing her to save a second focus for defense or take an evade and still get hits through.

Drop a Stealth Device on OL and roll an extra die! OL will almost always have an evade token for Juke and usually have a focus token as well. Throw the Emperor in there and you stand a good chance of shrugging off lots of dice.

But yes, I can't argue that Omega Leader is a great buy for 26 points with the proliferation of PS9-11 threats. And if Omega Leader survives to the end game with only 1 enemy ship remaining then the match is pretty much already won. Barring insane luck.

That's the plan. OL is an amazing late-game closer. Interestingly enough, the second table in the top 4 at the SC I was talking about featured a Han/Miranda list (my best friend's 13 year old son) against a Fel/OL/Wampa/Palpmobile. It came down to a wounded Han and OL trading shots before the OL player's green dice failed him and my friend's son took the game (he went on to lose in the final, but that was also a close game).

Might I ask what your list is? I'm not going to use it but I'm curious about what you bring to complement Whisper and OL.

"Whisper" (32)
Veteran Instincts (1)
Fire-Control System (2)
Agent Kallus (2)
Advanced Cloaking Device (4)

"Omega Leader" (21)
Juke (2)
Comm Relay (3)
Stealth Device (3)

Omicron Group Pilot (21)
Emperor Palpatine (8)

Total: 99
View in Yet Another Squad Builder

Lots to think about here, thanks gents! Oddly, my meta hasn't seen that much in the way of TLTs. They're slowly starting to find their way into people's lists, but it's not at the stage where I need to actually worry about them.

I'm a big fan of OL, but I really want to make Vader and Whisper work, so I'll keep to those two for now. Do people rate OL higher than Vader, currently? I do like that Whisper/OL/Palp list...

Also, I did play a game with Vader and Whisper tonight, but I traded Predator for VI on Vader, Captive for Rec. Spec on Whisper. and used Zeta Leader w/ Wired and Twin Ions instead of the Tempest pilot which altogether gave me 99 points. Unfortunately, there was nobody from the regular X-wing crowd available to play against (I intended to sit on the side and work on my MTG decks since this was the case...) but I ended up playing the store owners younger son (around...11?) so I can't even gauge how well I would have normally done. It was fun to have a silly game, but at the same time, even with purposely making bad moves and decisions for the hell of it, Whisper still dominated that game and I did not feel great afterwards...

EdSnark wrote:
Lots to think about here, thanks gents! Oddly, my meta hasn't seen that much in the way of TLTs. They're slowly starting to find their way into people's lists, but it's not at the stage where I need to actually worry about them.

Even then, I wouldn't worry too much about them. TLTs are good, no question about that, but they certainly aren't game-breaking like so many people like to complain (this is a point I've argued before on this forum).

I'm a big fan of OL, but I really want to make Vader and Whisper work, so I'll keep to those two for now. Do people rate OL higher than Vader, currently? I do like that Whisper/OL/Palp list...

Vader and OL do pretty much the same thing, albeit a lot differently. Vader, especially at PS 11, will hunt down enemy aces at close range to punish them with three attack dice plus a guaranteed crit from ATC. Omega Leader, on the other hand, can safely stay out of harms way and harass enemy aces from a difference, forcing them to rely on naked dice to survive. I've taken out Fel at range three with Omega Leader. Even though OL is only rolling two dice, they're almost guaranteed to be hits with Palpatine backing him up, so that tricky bastard can't use his tokens or Autothrusters to stop that incoming damage (plus, Juke takes away another potential evade result).

Also, I did play a game with Vader and Whisper tonight, but I traded Predator for VI on Vader, Captive for Rec. Spec on Whisper. and used Zeta Leader w/ Wired and Twin Ions instead of the Tempest pilot which altogether gave me 99 points. Unfortunately, there was nobody from the regular X-wing crowd available to play against (I intended to sit on the side and work on my MTG decks since this was the case...) but I ended up playing the store owners younger son (around...11?) so I can't even gauge how well I would have normally done. It was fun to have a silly game, but at the same time, even with purposely making bad moves and decisions for the hell of it, Whisper still dominated that game and I did not feel great afterwards...

I'd still go with Rebel Captive on Whisper if you have the points. Two focus tokens are nice, but a guaranteed stress is pretty sweet as well. Personally, I always side with a little control over an extra token; there will be times where your opponent will actively avoid shooting Whisper to not be dealt a stress token.

OL is such a satisfying ship to pilot, IMO.
Sometimes you'll run across an opponent who has no idea what he does (it happens), so you get the "Oh, a Tie/FO, that's cute" response.
...and then the game begins and it turns into "Wait, he does what? I can't modify what? Add means modify? Reroll means modify? Where's my rulebook?"

OL is a troll and only gets better as the game finishes.
Vader is good the whole game.
Fel is good the whole game, but has a big target on his back... a lot of lists add tools to specifically address his weaknesses. (Low HP)
Whisper also gets better as the game ends because your opponent has (hopefully) less ships to block with.

I also have a Phantom that I have yet to field and I've been wondering if (given some of the proliferation of super-high PS opponents) if there might be a role for a cheaper build.

I was thinking about possibly Echo (Juke, Stigium particle accelerator, and maybe FCS and/or Kallus/Merc copilot) 34-38 pts total to use as a long range sniper trying to stay at range 3 to throw 4 dice on the attack. Or a shadow Squadron pilot with ACD (31 points before crew)

Both options are significantly (or at least notably) cheaper than the 40+ whisper builds. And, especially with Adaptability coming out as a 0pt EPT, I just think that the days of relying on a 9 PS whisper to always shoot first and re cloak at close range may be coming to an end.

Obviously, it would depend on what else you have in the list, but what do y'all think?

Apostasus wrote:
I also have a Phantom that I have yet to field and I've been wondering if (given some of the proliferation of super-high PS opponents) if there might be a role for a cheaper build.

I was thinking about possibly Echo (Juke, Stigium particle accelerator, and maybe FCS and/or Kallus/Merc copilot) 34-38 pts total to use as a long range sniper trying to stay at range 3 to throw 4 dice on the attack. Or a shadow Squadron pilot with ACD (31 points before crew)

Both options are significantly (or at least notably) cheaper than the 40+ whisper builds. And, especially with Adaptability coming out as a 0pt EPT, I just think that the days of relying on a 9 PS whisper to always shoot first and re cloak at close range may be coming to an end.

Obviously, it would depend on what else you have in the list, but what do y'all think?

I'd recommend practicing a lot with Echo, since her 2-soft decloak is a lot more finicky than the standard 2 straight. Especially if you plan to stay at Range 3.

I don't like the Stygium on Echo or Whisper; With Echo, if you decide to shoot, you're now leaving your ass out there with only 2-3 (vs. 4-5) evade dice on a fragile frame, at PS6. Even if you try to stay at range 3, you can get eaten for lunch. That's why ACD is so much better on VI Whisper.
Stygiums are better used on low PS Phantom pilots.

I'm also not sold on Adaptability. It still eats the EPT slot, even if it is free, and really, VI is only 1 point. Maybe if you're going for an initiative bid or have a EPT slot that isn't being used by anything worthwhile it'll get some use, but for now it's just kind of 'meh', Time will tell, I could be wrong.

Apostasus wrote:
I also have a Phantom that I have yet to field and I've been wondering if (given some of the proliferation of super-high PS opponents) if there might be a role for a cheaper build.

I was thinking about possibly Echo (Juke, Stigium particle accelerator, and maybe FCS and/or Kallus/Merc copilot) 34-38 pts total to use as a long range sniper trying to stay at range 3 to throw 4 dice on the attack. Or a shadow Squadron pilot with ACD (31 points before crew)

Both options are significantly (or at least notably) cheaper than the 40+ whisper builds. And, especially with Adaptability coming out as a 0pt EPT, I just think that the days of relying on a 9 PS whisper to always shoot first and re cloak at close range may be coming to an end.

Obviously, it would depend on what else you have in the list, but what do y'all think?

2x Shadow Squadrons w/ ACD+FCS and Intelligence Agents + Turr Phennir w/ VI+AT+SD actually did really well at our store championship. Everyone scoffed at generic phantoms and not-Soontir Fel. How could someone possibly not take the best possible build ever out there? And then the guy wiped the floor with a lot of the meta lists/builds. TLTs and Poe couldn't touch him. He used intel agents and decloaks to block aces and aggressively counter Y-wings and recloak before they could shoot. It was actually really impressive.

 House Griffith wrote:

I don't like the Stygium on Echo or Whisper; With Echo, if you decide to shoot, you're now leaving your ass out there with only 2-3 (vs. 4-5) evade dice on a fragile frame, at PS6. Even if you try to stay at range 3, you can get eaten for lunch. That's why ACD is so much better on VI Whisper.
Stygiums are better used on low PS Phantom pilots.

Yeah, the main reason for Echo was for the EPT slot and juke. If there was a generic pilot with an EPT, I'd like that better, but no dice.

I also thought about the recon specialist Flight instructor as crew for defense rerolls, but then the point savings isn't that much more than some of the whisper builds.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 bocatt wrote:

2x Shadow Squadrons w/ ACD+FCS and Intelligence Agents + Turr Phennir w/ VI+AT+SD actually did really well at our store championship. Everyone scoffed at generic phantoms and not-Soontir Fel. How could someone possibly not take the best possible build ever out there? And then the guy wiped the floor with a lot of the meta lists/builds. TLTs and Poe couldn't touch him. He used intel agents and decloaks to block aces and aggressively counter Y-wings and recloak before they could shoot. It was actually really impressive.

In watching this, how important, would you say, was having 2 intel agents (and 2 ships that can react after the dials are down) ? Maybe something else with advanced sensors could also work, but...

Curious about something, it's probably a terrible idea but bear with me. I'm considering taking a TIE bomber with Vader + Whisper just to see how it'll do. I don't own one, but I'm tweaking my list for X-wing night right now and will borrow one if needed, I'm proxying the chips anyway. The idea here is that the bomber can, in theory, offer me a bit of control with it's ordnance. Again, it's probably terrible but I would like opinions. I'm probably going to give the Advanced Prototype a try if it's there for purchase on the day of, but for now this is what I've got my mind on...

Vader w/ VI, ATC, Title, EU
Whisper w/ Rebel Captive, VI, ACD, FCS
Scimitar Sq w/ Ion Pulse Missiles, Guidance Chips, Flechette Torpedoes

98 points. Perfect for initiative with Whisper if I've read right...

I'm going to throw it in here that Buzzsaw Whisper is probably the best way to run her.

Gunner lets you take evade and barrel roll with impunity by virtue of giving you an almost guaranteed to hit attack. Sure it costs a lot, but you can fit her in. Take any of these 98 point lists, put Gunner on Whisper and drop the ATC down to an AC on Vader or shave the 1 point off somewhere else.

Rebel Captive seems great because it dissuades shooting, but personally I love it when people try to shoot a cloaked Whisper when she has her token stack. It's a wasted opportunity when they shoot her and people very rarely have the patience to chew through all those dice she can muster. When they do it's even better because she can take some major heat off the rest of your list.

Buzzsaw Whisper is my favourite build maybe even in the whole game. Try her out and see if she fits your style!

I would like to suggest you to dropping Preadtor from Vader and giving him VI instead