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hi,
wraithknights, as we all know, tend to blow huge holes in my gunline before the gunline can do anything about it?
one idea was to have a primaris psyker use his power to make the guardsmens lasgun rending? (cant remember the name of the power)
or LR exterminators, like 3. they would handle the wraith knght.
any help or ideas would be rad. much appreciated

To be brutally honest, there really isn't an "efficient" way to kill a WK in the AM Codex.

Rapid fire Plasma on Vets is probably the most efficient way to drag one down, but even then you're wounding on 5's and there's Cover and FNP to get through. A crap load of Lascannons would be ideal, but there's not much in a way to get those for "cheap". The Ignores Cover / Monster Hunter order would help, if you don't mind / are forced to evacuate your Chimera.

LR Executioner [Tri-Plasma Turret] with Lascannon Hull and PC / MM sponsons is a pretty good way to kick out the right kind of attacks, though you'd want to have Preferred Enemy through either Pask or Kurov's Aquilla to avoid roasting yourself. It would help with Plasma Vets, too.

cheers for the reply.
I was thinking a whole squadron of vendettas, but that's a bit overkill for just the one unit. 2 maybe? with a PCS inside with plasmas?
never been a fan of the LR executioner as plasma weapons that size are really ugly imho. although to be fair that seems to be a good way to go.

So you have options. As stated, efficacy isn't huge, but you can make do.

1) Melta bomb vet squads.

2) Invisible blob with krak and melta bomb sergeants.

3) Fill your HS slots with rapier laser batteries and give them all bring it down orders.

4) Beast hunter shell vanquishers; salamander command vehicle helps to keep cover to a minimum and maximize reroll cover tank orders.

5) Pod vet/pod command squad spam. If you can do a 2:1 ratio of vets : command squads, you can drop in 10 monsterhunting/ignores cover plasma guns per trio of pods.

6) Divination + first rank/second rank. 150 lasguns with rending is no joke.

I'd avoid plasmacutioners as it's hard to get ignores cover on them and their 36" range means you're going to get D to the face if you don't kill him off. That and T8 isn't as afraid of plasma as you'd like it to be.

all really good points cheers ether!

Ask the Eldar player to play a list you have a chance in hell of competing against?


Although CCS spam in drop pods is a cheeky way too.

What about the Paskinator, or whatever it's called. A ton of Rending shots with Preferred Enemy, if I remember correctly.

This is my favorite guard list right now. It's from mr.moretanks but it is a fun and conpetitve list. I know it is not pure guard and has a token white scar librarius conclave (aka 3 models) but it is still a mobile mech and blob heavy list with 124 infantry an invis leman Russ, 3 chimeras and 2 vultures.
550pts. – Armored Battle Group – Combined Arms Detachment

190pts. – HQ.

190pts. – Vanquisher Command Tank, beast hunter shells, co-axil heavy stubber, heavy bolter

360pts. – Troops

60pts. – Armored Fist Squad, autocannon

60pts. – Chimera, autocannon turret

60pts. – Armored Fist Squad, autocannon

60pts. – Chimera, autocannon turret

60pts. – Armored Fist Squad, autocannon

60pts. – Chimera, autocannon turret

1,075pts. – Astra Militarum – Combined Arms Detachment

145pts. – HQ.

145pts. – Commissar Yarrick – WARLORD

620pts. – Troops

30pts. – Platoon Command Squad

70pts. – Infantry Squad, lascannon

70pts. – Infantry Squad, lascannon

70pts. – Infantry Squad, lascannon

70pts. – Infantry Squad, lascannon

30pts. – Platoon Command Squad

70pts. – Infantry Squad, lascannon

70pts. – Infantry Squad, lascannon

70pts. – Infantry Squad, lascannon

70pts. – Infantry Squad, lascannon

310pts. – Fast Attack

155pts. – Vulture, twin-linked punisher cannons

155pts. – Vulture, twin-linked punisher cannons

225pts. – Space Marines – Librarian Conclave Detachment

Chapter Tactics: White Scars

225pts. – HQ.

95pts. – Librarian, lvl 2, force axe, auspex

65pts. – Librarian, lvl 1, force axe

65pts. – Librarian, lvl 1, force axe



Lots of prescience, ignore cover lascannons combined with multiple autocannons give this list its main strength. The Vultures are amazing. The Vanquisher keeps things like Centurions, Broadsides, poor nids monster lists and even Riptides wary with its Instant Death blast that forces players to reroll their successful cover saves. The Conclave helps to keep the blobs out of trouble with Hit & Run and ATSKNF (and yarrick) keeps them around.

You have access to invisibility, prescience, multiple senior orders (including monster hunter, and a ton of ignore cover lascannons with the d3 wounds from the quasi twinlinked bs4 small blast vanquisher it will scare even a wraithknight. You also have a fairly mobile msu style list with a ton of ob sec troops. And the toughest warlord with a powerfist Astra Militarum have access too.
It's not without its faults, but Astra Militarum really doesn't have a good answer for first turn deepstrike assault lists at least atsknf and hit and run keeps the blob from being tied up.

best way is to tarpit it with conscripts and a preist for fearless

Mathhammer time:
(EDIT: Assumes a spherical cow - uh, wraithknight, in the open, without an invulnerable save).

Vendetta option:
You need to inflict 6 wounds wounds (ignoring armour saves/FNP) to kill the knight.
FNP (5+) means you need to inflict 9 wounds (ignoring armour saves).
A lascannon, str 9, has a (2/3) chance of wounding a T8 knight. You therefore need 13.5 hits with a lascannon.
Vendettas have twin-linked lascannons. Each weapon has a (3/4) chance of hitting.
You therefore need 18 twin-linked lascannons.
3 vendettas have, between them, 9 twin-linked lascannons.
Horribly expensive, but it could hypothetically deal a fair bit of damage.

Method two: Misfortunate and Rending.
Again, you need to get 6 wounds past the 'knights armour / FNP save.
FNP means you need to get 9 wounds past the 'knights armour save.
You'll need a 6 to wound with a rending lasgun, so you'll need 54 hits.
With a conscript squad (BS 2), that's 162 shots.
With a regular squad (BS 3) that's 108 shots.

Use "First rank, fire! Second rank, fire!" and each lasgun can shoot twice at 24''.

I'd prefer method 2.

I wouldn't go vendetta cost is to high and doesn't begin the game on the board. The blob list I posted above is similar price yet more versatile, still has 8 twinlinked and cover ignoring monster hunter las cannons not to mention a bs4 kinda twinlinked Insta death cannon (that's another d3 wounds on gmc) this is a much further range then rapid fire lasguns as well.

Statistically on the first turn even a single wraith knight should die unless it's invised. You need to get prescient from the conclave and bring it down from yarrick both of which should be easy. Rerolling to hit and wound with 8 armour ignoring las cannons. If the knight survives the bs4 quasi twinlinked small blast beast hunting forced rerolling of cover saves vanquisher should finish it off with another d3 wounds even with the Knights fnp save.

Mallich wrote:
Mathhammer time:

Thanks for the numbers, but toe-touching wraithknights are a dime a dozen out where I'm at. It makes things even less favorable. Hence the ignores cover orders and tank commander cover save stuff.

At the end of the day, the wraith knight is a red herring. I feel like the jetbikes are the ones you really want to go for, and dealing with the wraith knight should come second to protecting your anti-jetbike assets, such as wyverns.

Ether wrote:

Mallich wrote:
Mathhammer time:

Thanks for the numbers, but toe-touching wraithknights are a dime a dozen out where I'm at. It makes things even less favorable. Hence the ignores cover orders and tank commander cover save stuff.

At the end of the day, the wraith knight is a red herring. I feel like the jetbikes are the ones you really want to go for, and dealing with the wraith knight should come second to protecting your anti-jetbike assets, such as wyverns.

How is the wyvern good at jet bikes they still have a 3+ armor save and are large foot print that limits the small blasts. Mass 3+ armour is kind of a pain for guard. If only eldar bikes were 4+ armor it would be easier to handle.

And toe touching cover is gone now in the ITC so that's a good thing it makes them managable at least.

I find the best way to deal with scat bikes or battle company 3+ spam lists is just heavy rate of fire. 2x punisher vultures with 25 twinlinked str 5 shots each or first rank fire from ~ 100 las guardsman. Warp spiders just need long range weapons to keep them in check autocannons and lascannons spam help, punisher vultures continue to do what they do.

 easysauce wrote:
best way is to tarpit it with conscripts and a preist for fearless

Don't do this. Stomps will eat through the conscripts in a minimal amount of turns, and if the priest gets targeted with stomps (he will), they instant kill, and there goes your fearless. MAYBE with a full 50-blob of krak grenades, but expect to remove them by the handful, and expect your priest to die first, fast.

Because of stomps, If you want to tangle with super-heavies in CC, you go with something big, mean, tough and strong, or don't go, as you'll just get stepped on. And IG aren't known for their powerhouses.

No they wont... the math on 4 attacks and an average of 2 stomps per turn wont chew through 50 fearless conscripts in one or even two turns and usually it is going to tie that guy up for most of the game with a sub 200 pt unit. Your priest isnt getting stomped out either, unless he rolls nothing but 6's and you roll nothing but 1's (ITC allows LOS)

By far its the best tactic, I have used it to great effect, pts wise its better to tie them up then to kill them as guard.

Tying up super heavies with big bad stuff is just silly.. one 6 and your expensive unit is dead, and what super heavy in the IG codex is even going to do this? you gonna tie it up with a baneblade in combat? what big bad unit from IG are you talking about exactly?


Going for misfortune works, ok ish, sometimes its easy, sometimes the 6's just dont come up at least with tarpitting its a gimme that it will be held up for a few turns at the very least.

 easysauce wrote:
By far its the best tactic, I have used it to great effect, pts wise its better to tie them up then to kill them as guard.

I know that when I'm using my WK, fearless guard blobs are a solid counter. I do my best to avoid them at all costs.

That's why I use hawks -- and I've had two 6 man swooping hawks unit neuter that threat in one turn. The two large blast grenade packs that ignore cover, STR 4, AP 5 shot from BS 6 followed up by 36 STR 3, AP5, 24" range, BS 5 shots from a squad that does not deviate from deep strike ... it's a problem for guard blobs. I've popped them down right behind guard covering behind an ADL before and tore them up.

Part of what makes the Eldar codex so gross are it's multiple counters do different problems. Now, if you can get a counter to those hawks going, like with some solid interceptor, then your blob squad is in business!

Your list has no point-effective counter to it. You could kill it with a rending pasknisher + other shots. Would take like 600+ pt of fire to put it down. Ideally, you tarpit it with conscripts and deal with the rest of their army cause scat bikes, d-guards and spiders are №1 priority and are possible to deal with more effectively

Leman Russ Annihilators with Hull Lascannons I have found tend to do the job quite nicely. Another FW trick I have learned is the Leman Russ Vanquishers with Beast Hunter Shells, they cause instant death so even though you couldnt one shot it you could take a good chunk of wounds off of it.

What about bringing one of IG's Lords of War to the table?

 Lord Scythican wrote:
What about bringing one of IG's Lords of War to the table?

The best LOW we have access to is the imperial knight, the baneblade varients are all very expensive and not extremely durable. Although I still have fun with a storm lord full of bullgryns. The best thing about guard is our ability to spam plasma guns, autocannons, las cannons, and armour. Our strength is in volume of fire. The list I posted above will knock out most armies even a wraith knight and scat bike spam.

Just bring a Warhound titan with 2 turbolaser arms, that will take care of things promptly.

Wraith knights mop the floor with Imperial Knights.

ally in SM for grav spam.

Tarpit it and stick melta bombz and Force weapons in it until it dies. When tar pitting don't use tons of bodies use re roll able inv saves. Tons of bodies are just the way to get stomped a lot.
I know no point efficient ways to kill it. But this works for Inquisition and IG.
The other trick is less fun, just make sure that he can't soot at anything valuable -> Bring no vehicles or other expensive models
Whatever you do don't fall into the trap to go all rus squadron it it. Those things are the perfect target for its weapons. The knight might just earn its points back in one round of shooting then.

gungo wrote:
How is the wyvern good at jet bikes they still have a 3+ armor save and are large foot print that limits the small blasts.

I bring up wyverns because they are in a lot of guard armies and are useless against the wraith knight. They need to do something and hunting warp spiders/jetbikes is a good thing for them to do.

Wyverns work like anything else in the guard book: volume of wounds. S4 shred and a billion hits means that stuff ought to die, which isn't much different from the punisher or autocannon theories you're proposing.

Barrage is cool and a great tool especially against move-shoot-move things like jet bikes and warp spiders. My favorite tool for bike removal is an ignores cover earthshaker battery, but in case that's not available, wyverns can do a solid job. A single wyvern should get 6-8 hits on a scat bike unit, getting 6-10 wounds after shred. The saves mean that 6/3-10/3 wounds get through giving you 2-3.333 wounds per wyvern. Take a squadron of 2 and you're wiping out a bike squad per turn.

I agree that punisher vultures are amazing, but they tend to be better against static targets rather than spiders who can jump into terrain or out of los of the guns or even behind the flyer.

oldzoggy wrote:Tarpit it and stick melta bombz and Force weapons in it until it dies.
The other trick is less fun, just make sure that he can't soot at anything valuable.

So much truth right here.

simple you make it clear to your friends that your not playing against your gargantuan mc's anymore and if they want to bring them around you wont be going

I've come to an agreement with my Imp Knight / Wraithknight playing friend, that I don't mind facing one at 1500 points, or two at 1850... but no more than that without some kind of warning.

Then again, I've temporarily shelved my IG for now, and am playing [non-grav spamming] Space Marines, so they have some better tools to deal with WK.

One big monster should be deal-with-able. Even if it's "avoid it" or "sacrifice to it" play, one should be a challenge, but do-able.

Target priority: Focus on the units supporting the wraithknight, whether that's the scatterbikes throwing out S6 shots or the Farseer casting guide/fortune/invisbility and screen your heavy hitters with (hopefully fearless) infantry. Once they are taken care of start spamming the high strength or rending shots: This can be from Pask, a plethora of heavy weapon teams, Imperial knight support and some extra bonus points if you throw misfortune at it to give any weapon that shoots against it rending. Now if I remember right rending on a 6 is an automatic wound so even your S3 lasguns become AP2 on 6's "bring it down" monsters*.

*This is from memory so if another Dakka member could confirm that would be great