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Hello all, I wanted a general feeling on peoples opinion on proxies for one model for another. My community seems a little mixed on this apparently, and i wanted to kind of get a feel for what is acceptable for the community at large. This is part of a conversion project I am doing and before i get TO far into it I wanted to know what the general consensus is. I will add links to models used in this way so you all have a visual aid, as well as if needed some pictures of the WIP of things im working on. All models are on correct base sizes and have the correct weapon options and correct size, in some cases are even slightly larger then the traditional models. I would really appreciate some feed back here to get a feel for what is acceptable, some in my local community where ok with it and others where not so its really a mixed bag here.

I am working on a space wolves conversion, to be a "fallen" space wolves legion fallen to Khorne. I will post pics of my conversions that are still in progress but don't have them with me atm.

Thunderwolf cav
https://www.games-workshop.com/en-CA/Khorne-Bloodbound-Mighty-Skullcrushers mixed with https://www.games-workshop.com/en-CA/Space-Wolves-Thunderwolf-Cavalry bits to build TWC weapons are correct and the units will have backpacks once I finish the greeen stuff work..

Bloodclaws
https://www.games-workshop.com/en-CA/Khorne-Bloodbound-Blood-Warriors with backpacks and a Bolt pistols, an easy quick conversion.

Gray hunters
https://www.games-workshop.com/en-CA/Chaos-Warriors-Regiment-2016 mixed with some random weapon bits from https://www.games-workshop.com/en-CA/Space-Wolves-Pack-2016 and https://www.games-workshop.com/en-CA/Chaos-Space-Marines to make sure all weapons are correct. and on the right bases.

Just wanted to give some visual aids to give everyone an idea of what im talking about. Am i wrong or are these not acceptable "proxy" models for the correct units. I didn't want to just want to paint a bunch of space wolves red and brass, i wanted something a little different. I want to avoid any "feel bad" moments so please help with some opinions.

I'd play you. Since you'll use the correct sized bases and weapons I see no issues.

I love conversions, I begrudgingly accept the need for proxies.

I like the spirit of your idea, and honestly I've seen more than one chaos space marine army run using space wolves rules without anyone batting an eye. (Without bothering with the effort you're clearly looking to put into this.)

However, ultimately the feedback you're most interested in is going to be that of your local group.

None of the options you've shown here are really conducive to a 'single piece proof of concept' that you could take back and show to them, if you could lay hands on a single bloodcrusher I'd totally recommend you do that first, building your HQ and, if ultimately the others aren't going to accept it as Bjork Bjork the Wolfest you still at least have a sick conversion for use in a chaos space marine army.

Aside from keeping sizes and footprints the same, conversions should be consistent. If you have robot werewolves that you use as assault marines they need to all be robo-wolves that are distinct from another unit with different stats.
Similarly if you want to represent ccw/pistol with different conversions then all of them should be equipped with weapons you can justify as capable of everything a pistol and a chainsword could do, and that weapon profile should only be used by that weapon. If your pistol/sword is a big boomerangs then don't use boomerangs as boltguns too.

I will post some proof of concept images later this evening, as they are at home and I am at work atm. but thank you for the feed back so far. Anyone who disagrees I would love to here from you to! i don't just want positive feedback, I would love to here WHY its not ok as well. So far all i have really gotten is " they aren't the correct models" from people at my local store, but some are cool with it.

My only rules about proxies are: 1. correct base size and 2. generally close model size.

I can't see any reason to not play against anything that fulfills those two rules. Playing a game is more fun than not playing a game.

I think that if the proxy model is of similar size to the original, or what you're going to be playing it as, then the proxy is fine. Since it seems like you have already done that, I see no problem with your proxies.

Size, base and consistency (if this mace is a thunder hammer then all maces are thunder hammers).
But then I am a bit peculiar about keeping my models WYSIWYG.

Yep, if you keep it similar size (or slightly bigger) there reAly should be no compliant. If the unit is distinct and won't be confused as another of your conversions, if the wepons are clear as to what the represent, and if it resembles enough of the original faction so as to not be confused for csm then all should be fine.
The argument "but it's not the original models" is a gw games store way of thinking that never alows conversions or proxies and is almost only ever used to encourage sales of the original product. If you wanted to go by a standard then go by tournament standard (which could vary, but is more lax then gw), otherwise you should be fine.

Generally, what ive found is that people are far more accepting of conversions and proxies if they look cool, from you posts your idea seem awesome and I'd go for it

A proxy is not the same thing as a counts-as.

A proxy is something (it can be truly anything) you use in place of a model because you don't have that model yet. A beer can in place of a Drop Pod, a mere slottabase in place of a marine, a Fantasy goblin representing a necron warrior, etc.

A counts-as is an alternative representation of a model, using a model different to the "official" one provided by the company that sells the game.

I have no issues with proxies for people who are new to the game, or just starting a new army. I have no issues with counts-as as long as the model is of a similar size and shape, and the player puts some effort in the conversion/whatever. I have counts-as in my 40k armies, as I don't like sticking to a single model line (nor manufacturer) for a single project.

I see no issue with your conversions, and if anyone does, then it's probably not worth playing against.

Proxy: using a red Solo cup in place of a drop pod

Counts As: Using the Setorax model from Deathwatch: Overkill boardgame in place of Commander Shrike's model.

This sounds like it could be fun, and I'd like to see some pics! Generally, close enough model size and correct base size is all I require, as well as being able to tell what's what (who has a plasma gun, which is the TWC, etc.).

I am for the budget player, and would give credit to any straightforward proxies/counts as who keeps it simple, if you have a unit of counts-as stern guard/devastators and they are all running different weapons, but you are using regular bolter tactical marines.. they are of fair size, but its going to be too difficult to remember which marine had which special weapon. but if you ran them all missile launcher/simpler for both player and opponent to remember (which is often to the proxier's detriment), then I willing to under most circumstances.
After all, I might need to proxy right back to try something out before I drop $100-$200 on something.

My and my friends still use pennies, papers, boxes, or whatever we want at this point. Hahah.

Not everyone is like us though so just ask around. I personally don't have a problem with it if it's just a casual game. However if it was a serious tournament I would say no proxies allowed.

Im sorry Proxy wasn't the correct term. Counts as space wolves is what i meant. sorry brain fart there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Thank you for all the responses, I didn't think what i was doing was to crazy but the blow back i had gotten made me a little concerned i might just be in the wrong here.

I'd say they are fine. I had an idea for awhile of using Thunderwolves with the marines armed with combi-bolters in my 13th Company army as Counts-as bikers. My reasoning is that if it's so hard for them to maintain vehicles and terminator armor for wolfguard, bikes would be hard, too.

I noticed that I have 2 simple rules that have to be met before I mentally accept the proxy.

Rule 1: Don't confuse me.
It should be kinda obvious to me what it is when I am looking at it.
I love wild conversions, but I don't like to remind myself what is what during the game.

Rule 2: Put some effort in it.

Your examples seem cool and in line with my semi unconscious rules.

There is a difference between proxies and conversions. Conversions are when you create your own unique model. Proxies stand in for other models. You're doing conversions. Anyone who tells you "no" is somebody you don't want to play with anyway. They're basically an ass.

 timetowaste85 wrote:
There is a difference between proxies and conversions. Conversions are when you create your own unique model. Proxies stand in for other models. You're doing conversions. Anyone who tells you "no" is somebody you don't want to play with anyway. They're basically an ass.

There are tons of conversions I would day no to.

This is not ok at all.:


This is not a wraith knight



These are not Imperial assassins, when used in a eldar army


If this is your morkanaut.


Then this can't be your allied in imperial knight.


But I would be totally ok with this papercraft model used as the original model



And these models used as Inquisitorial henchmen would be totally fine. Note that they are 100% proxies and not conversions at all.






.

I use converted ogryn as kataphrons. I just put them on a 60 mm instead of a 40.

I have a very similar army, OP. Works just fine. Though I usually play against the same buddies, I wouldn't expect pick-up opponents to mind since I mostly use the proper bases for the units I represent. And even if they weren't, it wouldn't make much of a difference.

I have a fully converted Salamanders army that everyone LOVES. I have Lizardman models for a majority of the conversions.

I have Carnosaurs with wings for Stormravens, Stegadon with armor plating for my Stalker. Skinks for scouts, Temple Guard heads for Sternguards, Warrior heads for Tacticals, and Eggs for drop pods (sterofoam eggs).

I have only played against 1 person that didn't like my army. His only problem was that he didn't like the fact that the eggs weren't "see-through" even though I normally remove them temporarily for LoS purposes. I have vehicles templates at the bottom of all my ground vehicles for measurements.

A lot of it also depends on your game group or FLGS. Some are more lenient than others when it comes to "counts as" or conversions. For example: I am currently working on a C'Tan Shard of the Nightbringer converted from Nagash. I'll basically cut off his pope hat and mold a hood/mantle and scythe out of Green Stuff. Most groups probably wouldn't allow this since the model is significantly larger than the official model, but it was actually my gaming group that recommended him based on how cool we all thought it would look. We're a pretty relaxed group, but YMMV.

This is my example of a counts-as. My Eldar army is heavily themed as Corsairs (the Rogue Trader-era pirates, rather than the Forgeworld ones), and these are my counts-as Shining Spears, which are currently a work in progress (hence no paint).

New Reavers, but with Cold One Knight lances and arms and Kroot Rifle/bayonets as laser-tips. Sorry for the bad contrast making it hard to see the lances currently. They are acceptible because there are no allied Dark Eldar on Reavers to confuse things.

Saythings wrote:
I have a fully converted Salamanders army that everyone LOVES. I have Lizardman models for a majority of the conversions.

I have Carnosaurs with wings for Stormravens, Stegadon with armor plating for my Stalker. Skinks for scouts, Temple Guard heads for Sternguards, Warrior heads for Tacticals, and Eggs for drop pods (sterofoam eggs).

I have only played against 1 person that didn't like my army. His only problem was that he didn't like the fact that the eggs weren't "see-through" even though I normally remove them temporarily for LoS purposes. I have vehicles templates at the bottom of all my ground vehicles for measurements.

Spoiler:

That is hilarious! The idea is that you are literally playing as salamanders, i.e., reptiles?

You should call your army Salamanders: Dark Souls Company.

I have in mind the Salamanders in the Forest of Giants from Dark Souls II.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
OP:

My way of thinking is this. If you look in the codex for your army, it'll list wargear and give you a general description of what each unit is supposed to be. Your model ultimately should reflect that.

If the codex says that your model should have a boltgun, but you have it equipped with a d-scythe, I'm going to raise an eyebrow.

However, when multiple models use the same wargear, it's fair game. I have tactical marine sargeants that I'm using as assault marines, and a few tactical marines with scoped bolters that I'm using as sternguard (with a different paint scheme and a few extra bits glued on). An assault marine is basically a power-armored marine with a pistol and a sword (or something like that). A sternguard is a power armored marine with a cool scoped gun.

Ultimately, that's the idea for most cases.

However, if, like the above poster, you tell me that your (literal) salamanders are using eggs for drop pods, I'll probably shrug my shoulders and say: "Okey dokey!"