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Back story for this logic debate:
I was standing in the GW shop in Tampa when someone nonchalantly said Harlequins shouldn't even be an army. That's when it felt like the emperor himself chose to speak through me(because I'm a human being duh)

Here's the Points of logic that I spewed out yet made complete sense.
1. Harlequins have the only "VIABLE" Eldar god.
2. Harlequins are the only faction with a plan to save the Eldar race.
3. The actual # of Harlequins is unknown, so in that regard they could theoretically be the largest faction of Eldar in existence hiding in the webway.
4. If you try and grasp the size and grandeur of the eldar empire before the fall and the unimaginable hubris in what they created... there is absolutely no reason to suspect they would not of had "emperor class" Titans with the grace and speed something of that size should not be capable of. Who knows what and how many of the what's Cegorach took into the webway during that time, potentially making them the most powerful of the factions if the black library itself already did not.
5. Only the harlequins consider all Eldar factions as 1 faction still and capable of bringing all of them together at once for the most powerful effects. (Our powers combined "Captain Planet" style)
Logical Thoughts?

Its also equally likely that the Harlequins are a minority of the Eldar race and, in the grand scale of the galaxy, are barely a blip on the radar. Maybe a blip on that blip's radar. Considering how little they contribute to galactic events I would hazard a guess that there aren't very many of them.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Its also equally likely that the Harlequins are a minority of the Eldar race and, in the grand scale of the galaxy, are barely a blip on the radar. Maybe a blip on that blip's radar. Considering how little they contribute to galactic events I would hazard a guess that there aren't very many of them.

Can't deny the likelihood of them not having the #s. A thought tho, when magnus broke the portal on terra the emperor committed the custodes,sisters of silence and more to defend that 1 portal... how many are the Harlequins defending in the unimaginable Labyrinth webway?
Also in the lore you will see they contribute ALOT more then people are even aware of. That lore also states their #s are alot more then people thought

Edit: Source- Codex-Harlequins, WH40K wiki Harlequins "millennia of mystery"

Sometimes the smallest number can make the biggest difference, if they have the tools and the talent.


And the Harlequins have both.

What army did the other guy play?

Well, you're close, but not quite accurate. Harelquins are not the Eldar's main faction, but they do represent the Eldar civilization.

The Harlequins are the keepers of the pre-Fall ideas of Eldar culture. They're whole performances are reminders to the different Eldar factions of who they used to be. And the Harlequins are trying to steer the different factions into going back to their pre-Fall culture (not pre-Fall means before they started down the Slaannesh creating path, not just before they woke it up).

The Harlequins are trying to reform the main Eldar race, but they aren't it.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Well, you're close, but not quite accurate. Harelquins are not the Eldar's main faction, but they do represent the Eldar civilization.

The Harlequins are the keepers of the pre-Fall ideas of Eldar culture. They're whole performances are reminders to the different Eldar factions of who they used to be. And the Harlequins are trying to steer the different factions into going back to their pre-Fall culture (not pre-Fall means before they started down the Slaannesh creating path, not just before they woke it up).

The Harlequins are trying to reform the main Eldar race, but they aren't it.

But what source, logic or theory proves this? I can't say it's a verifiable fact yet that they indeed are but there's plenty of theoretical logic to support my theory.

I'll check my codexes and 1st edition materials when I get home to provide you with which ones say something to that effect.

Until then, I can tide you over with the somewhat recent Dark Eldar and Craftworldish Eldar trilogies by Gav Thorpe. He's the only writer working for Black Library that pays attention the old fluff.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
I'll check my codexes and 1st edition materials when I get home to provide you with which ones say something to that effect.

Until then, I can tide you over with the somewhat recent Dark Eldar and Craftworldish Eldar trilogies by Gav Thorpe. He's the only writer working for Black Library that pays attention the old fluff.

Yeah I don't have all the sources which is why I brought this here to see if anyone has something definitive or theoretical logic. I've read the trilogies for both but I don't remember anything in them that counters my points because they love to remain vague or mysterious.
I do agree there is the possibility they could currently not fit the description but I haven't seen anything that actually confirms it. That doesn't mean they may not end up turning into the largest or main faction eventually tho.

 Blitzen the Solitaire wrote:
I've read the trilogies for both but I don't remember anything in them that counters my points because they love to remain vague or mysterious.

The entire half a book that's from Motley's perspective describes exactly what the Harlequin's goals and motivations are, to wit: what I described in my first post.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Blitzen the Solitaire wrote:
I've read the trilogies for both but I don't remember anything in them that counters my points because they love to remain vague or mysterious.

The entire half a book that's from Motley's perspective describes exactly what the Harlequin's goals and motivations are, to wit: what I described in my first post.

I'll give it another read tonight, what I gathered from that was basically my point #5. I don't remember him being very specific but definitely dropped alot of comments about reuniting the current eldar factions.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
That was the Path of the Incubi one if I remember correctly

Path of the Archon featured Motley. Don't know if he was in incubi as well.

 JamesY wrote:
Path of the Archon featured Motley. Don't know if he was in incubi as well.

Yeah he makes appearances in almost all of them but in Incubi he had a more prominent role as he travels alongside the Incubi throughout the story

 Blitzen the Solitaire wrote:

 JamesY wrote:
Path of the Archon featured Motley. Don't know if he was in incubi as well.

Yeah he makes appearances in almost all of them but in Incubi he had a more prominent role as he travels alongside the Incubi throughout the story

Ah ok. I really don't like Andy Chamber's writing style so couldn't face reading the other two. Motley was a cool character though.

 JamesY wrote:

 Blitzen the Solitaire wrote:

 JamesY wrote:
Path of the Archon featured Motley. Don't know if he was in incubi as well.

Yeah he makes appearances in almost all of them but in Incubi he had a more prominent role as he travels alongside the Incubi throughout the story

Ah ok. I really don't like Andy Chamber's writing style so couldn't face reading the other two. Motley was a cool character though.

Path of the Incubi is probably the best and most in depth look at a harlequin. Plus the prologue is amazing

If I ever see it at a decent price I'll pick it up on your recommendation. Might inspire me to get building my harle army.

 Blitzen the Solitaire wrote:

I'll give it another read tonight, what I gathered from that was basically my point #5.

Yes, but your point 5 is mutually exclusive with your thread supposition given their goal.

The Harlequins are trying to unite the Eldar race. They are not the main faction of the Eldar culture (and honestly, culture is a better word than race here) they are trying to reform. The Eldar culture they are trying to reform doesn't exist at all anymore. Not even within their own group. They are just as alien to it as all the rest.

In fact, the Harlequins themselves say the Dark Eldar are the closest thing to what they consider the true Eldar culture to be. But chickens are also the closest living relative to Tyrannosaurus Rex, so close doesn't mean much.

I don't honestly think the Harlequins want to go back to the way things were, either. From Motley's words, I kind of got the idea that their ideal of 'reuniting' the Eldar race involves melding the good things each separate culture has picked up over the millennia and pulling them together into a greater whole that's sort of a compromise between the three. Something better still than the pre-fall Eldar, if you will.

This united Eldar race would then rise up and carve out a new niche for itself in the galaxy, presumably after Cegorach and Ynnead deal with Slaanesh.

1. Harlequins have the only "VIABLE" Eldar god.
2. Harlequins are the only faction with a plan to save the Eldar race.
3. The actual # of Harlequins is unknown, so in that regard they could theoretically be the largest faction of Eldar in existence hiding in the webway.
4. If you try and grasp the size and grandeur of the eldar empire before the fall and the unimaginable hubris in what they created... there is absolutely no reason to suspect they would not of had "emperor class" Titans with the grace and speed something of that size should not be capable of. Who knows what and how many of the what's Cegorach took into the webway during that time, potentially making them the most powerful of the factions if the black library itself already did not.
5. Only the harlequins consider all Eldar factions as 1 faction still and capable of bringing all of them together at once for the most powerful effects. (Our powers combined "Captain Planet" style)

1. No Vect and Eldrad have too (just in really sick/strange ways)
2. No, CW Eldar are also hanging onto survival to redeem themselves/wage out right war on the Galaxy.
3.The actual # of CW Eldar s unknown, hence a moot point re: Harlies. Also Commorragh is said to be h-u-g-e.
4. They do have EC Titans - they are called Phatoms - FW sells one. There is ZERO indication Harlies have the will nor means to construct one.
5. Agreed.

However you fail on points #1-4 so in short. No.

 Ratius wrote:


1. No Vect and Eldrad have too (just in really sick/strange ways)
2. No, CW Eldar are also hanging onto survival to redeem themselves/wage out right war on the Galaxy.
3.The actual # of CW Eldar s unknown, hence a moot point re: Harlies. Also Commorragh is said to be h-u-g-e.
4. They do have EC Titans - they are called Phatoms - FW sells one. There is ZERO indication Harlies have the will nor means to construct one.
5. Agreed.

However you fail on points #1-4 so in short. No.

Can you explain your reasoning for #1?

Can you explain your reasoning for #1?

Vect iirc has a plan in Commoragh to seal some sort of webway, and harness Eldricht powers to raise Yneead.
Eldrad (either directly or by proxy) is trying the same.
I do admit, its St Patrciks Day and Im tipsy but Im nearly sure Eldrads/ the CW Eldar plan is coherent

 Ratius wrote:

1. Harlequins have the only "VIABLE" Eldar god.
2. Harlequins are the only faction with a plan to save the Eldar race.
3. The actual # of Harlequins is unknown, so in that regard they could theoretically be the largest faction of Eldar in existence hiding in the webway.
4. If you try and grasp the size and grandeur of the eldar empire before the fall and the unimaginable hubris in what they created... there is absolutely no reason to suspect they would not of had "emperor class" Titans with the grace and speed something of that size should not be capable of. Who knows what and how many of the what's Cegorach took into the webway during that time, potentially making them the most powerful of the factions if the black library itself already did not.
5. Only the harlequins consider all Eldar factions as 1 faction still and capable of bringing all of them together at once for the most powerful effects. (Our powers combined "Captain Planet" style)

1. No Vect and Eldrad have too (just in really sick/strange ways)
2. No, CW Eldar are also hanging onto survival to redeem themselves/wage out right war on the Galaxy.
3.The actual # of CW Eldar s unknown, hence a moot point re: Harlies. Also Commorragh is said to be h-u-g-e.
4. They do have EC Titans - they are called Phatoms - FW sells one. There is ZERO indication Harlies have the will nor means to construct one.
5. Agreed.

However you fail on points #1-4 so in short. No.

The harlequins put Vect in power, so logically could remove him as well. A point t I forgot to mention.
The cw eldar indeed hang onto survival but that's all they do. They have no actual plan to win the final battle.
It's not a moot point as the # of CW'S is known but the # of Harlequins that escaped the fall is not and the Harlequins continue to recruit from all Eldar factions.
4. I didn't suggest they have the will or ability to create one, rather the original empire would of been able to and Cegorach "taking the seeds of revenge into the webway" may theoretically include an Eldar EMPEROR class titan.

The eldar don't have a main faction. That's part of why they're a dieing race. They have shattered into multiple factions that don't really work together consistently. You have craftworlds, commoragh, corsairs, exodites, and harlequins. All with different goals and cultures. The harlequins seek to follow Cegorachs plan to defeat slannesh and reunite the elder race. They are not the main faction anymore the the corsairs would be though. They also do preserve much of the elder past with their plays and stories.

They were actually some of the first eldar models released by GW, and one their only really unique ideals. That is more than enough reason for them to be their own army.

The harlequins put Vect in power, so logically could remove him as well. A point t I forgot to mention.
The cc eldar indeed hang onto survival but that's all they do. They have no actual plan to win the final battle.
It's not a moot point as the # of CW'S is known but the # of Harlequins that escaped the fall is not and the Harlequins continue to recruit from all Eldar factions.
4. I didn't suggest they have the will or ability to create one, rather the original empire would of been able to and Cegorach "taking the seeds of revenge into taking her webway" may theoretically include an Eldar EMPEROR class titan.

Its logical to assume Vects power has grown considerably since then - he rules basically a pirate island of death unopposed and has vilified allcomers to that.
No, they do not, they are actively working towards raising Yneead, thats fluff canon.
Im open to numbers on CW Eldar, I've never seen solid figures bar vague crap like "billions per CW".
He may well but as yet, zero fluff has a harly Titan in game or fluff wise.

 Ratius wrote:

The harlequins put Vect in power, so logically could remove him as well. A point t I forgot to mention.
The cc eldar indeed hang onto survival but that's all they do. They have no actual plan to win the final battle.
It's not a moot point as the # of CW'S is known but the # of Harlequins that escaped the fall is not and the Harlequins continue to recruit from all Eldar factions.
4. I didn't suggest they have the will or ability to create one, rather the original empire would of been able to and Cegorach "taking the seeds of revenge into taking her webway" may theoretically include an Eldar EMPEROR class titan.

Its logical to assume Vects power has grown considerably since then - he rules basically a pirate island of death unopposed and has vilified allcomers to that.
No, they do not, they are actively working towards raising Yneead, thats fluff canon.
Im open to numbers on CW Eldar, I've never seen solid figures bar vague crap like "billions per CW".
He may well but as yet, zero fluff has a harly Titan in game or fluff wise.

That's entirely possible as well and I totally agree.
With the lack of information to fill in these gaps tho, I think it's safe to say my idea is a "possibility"

Agreed
Thats the beauty (or hatred) of GWs open fluff policy
Sorry if I came across harsh - was just throwing ideas out there!

 Blitzen the Solitaire wrote:
The harlequins put Vect in power, so logically could remove him as well. A point t I forgot to mention.

No doubt President Hindenburg would have agreed. Initially.