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In a different thread, the current debate is this:
Running a Harlequin Formation with Eldar CAD, can an I.C. from the CAD with fleet join the Rising Crescendo formation and benefit from it?

Rising Crescendo: From the start of the second turn, all units in this formatiom that have the Fleet special rules can Run and charge in the same turn.

Personally I'm in favor of No despite how much I'd love to do it myself.
I'm quoting CRB pg.118 detachments and I.C. special rules as my justification.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
First vote is mine incase that influences your decision

Depends on the wording.

If it refers to a unit, you may as well ask a mod to lock this thread here and now otherwise you'll just have 10 pages of people bickering.

Either way, my answer is yes the IC benefits as long as Rising Crescendo does not require every model to have it.

Rising crescendo gives all units in the formation with fleet the ability to run and charge


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Added the rule to OP

Yes, the IC benefits, as the unit is given the ability, and the IC is a member of the unit
(
Or rather, the IC does not prevent the unit from charging )

Does the unit the IC has joined have Fleet and is from this Formation?

Those are the conditions and expectations of the rule.

Who does the rule affect?

Ability to use Fleet is not a requirement it seems, though.

 Charistoph wrote:
Does the unit the IC has joined have Fleet and is from this Formation?

Those are the conditions and expectations of the rule.

Who does the rule affect?

Ability to us eFleet is not a requirement it seems, though.

Almost all harlequin units minus jet bikes and vehicles have fleet naturally. The i.c. has fleet himself.

The ability to run and charge is a formation special rules that applies to all units in the formation that have fleet.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Which also on a vote for yes means any i.c. from a different detachment or formation can join a Harlequin Formation to recieve benefits such as(including all possible formation benefits)
Reroll invul saves of 1
I.c. joining formation with fleet can run and charge starting round2
I.c. with hit and run joining a troupe can embark upon a transport if they land within 2 inches of it using hit&run
I.c. attached to skyweavers can reroll jink cover saves

 Blitzen the Solitaire wrote:
Almost all harlequin units minus jet bikes and vehicles have fleet naturally. The i.c. has fleet himself.

The ability to run and charge is a formation special rules that applies to all units in the formation that have fleet.

Indeed. And what is the IC operating as, their own unit, or as a member of one of the formation's unit?

 Blitzen the Solitaire wrote:
Which also on a vote for yes means any i.c. from a different detachment or formation can join a Harlequin Formation to recieve benefits such as(including all possible formation benefits)
Reroll invul saves of 1
I.c. joining formation with fleet can run and charge starting round2
I.c. with hit and run joining a troupe can embark upon a transport if they land within 2 inches of it using hit&run
I.c. attached to skyweavers can reroll jink cover saves

Possibly. I am unfamiliar with the specifics of those rules.

My questions earlier were just to point out the line of thought for determining the answers to your question.

 Charistoph wrote:

 Blitzen the Solitaire wrote:
Almost all harlequin units minus jet bikes and vehicles have fleet naturally. The i.c. has fleet himself.

The ability to run and charge is a formation special rules that applies to all units in the formation that have fleet.

Indeed. And what is the IC operating as, their own unit, or as a member of one of the formation's unit?

 Blitzen the Solitaire wrote:
Which also on a vote for yes means any i.c. from a different detachment or formation can join a Harlequin Formation to recieve benefits such as(including all possible formation benefits)
Reroll invul saves of 1
I.c. joining formation with fleet can run and charge starting round2
I.c. with hit and run joining a troupe can embark upon a transport if they land within 2 inches of it using hit&run
I.c. attached to skyweavers can reroll jink cover saves

Possibly. I am unfamiliar with the specifics of those rules.

My questions earlier were just to point out the line of thought for determining the answers to your question.

Per detachment rules a unit can only belong to one detachment/formation. So my thoughts is that makes him a unit of the CAD not any formation they join.

Sorry I'm not trying to sound uppity, just following conclusions based on what people are saying for full disclosure.
Each of those rules is a shortened version of a Harlequin Formation special rule. That applies to all units in the individual formation or units that have certain abilities such as fleet depending on the formation you take.

Blitzen, a unit can only belong to a single detachment. However, models can be in a unit of any detachment (following normal rules for allies of course). As such, if you have a Death Jester in a unit of Kabalite Warriors from a CAD, the unit is still a Dark Eldar unit, it is still a Kabalite Warrior unit, and it is still a unit from a CAD.

 Happyjew wrote:
Blitzen, a unit can only belong to a single detachment. However, models can be in a unit of any detachment (following normal rules for allies of course). As such, if you have a Death Jester in a unit of Kabalite Warriors from a CAD, the unit is still a Dark Eldar unit, it is still a Kabalite Warrior unit, and it is still a unit from a CAD.

I agree they can join the units, the problem is transferring the special rules.
Why not just take a CAD join as much of the CAD into the Harlequin units thereby giving all harlequins Objective Secured is kinda my point.
Which by saying they do get the benefit I need only attach an Archon to a 12 man troupe and string them out over 24inches until only 1 troupe touches the objective thereby securing it?

Because only Troop units in a CAD have Objective Secured.

 Happyjew wrote:
Because only Troop units in a CAD have Objective Secured.

Your right of course I was making a point tho. Let me rephrase.

So by attaching a death Jester to a troop of Kabalite warriors. I can string a 20man kw squad across 40inches until only the death jester touches the objective thereby securing it.

 Blitzen the Solitaire wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

 Blitzen the Solitaire wrote:
Almost all harlequin units minus jet bikes and vehicles have fleet naturally. The i.c. has fleet himself.

The ability to run and charge is a formation special rules that applies to all units in the formation that have fleet.

Indeed. And what is the IC operating as, their own unit, or as a member of one of the formation's unit?

Per detachment rules a unit can only belong to one detachment/formation. So my thoughts is that makes him a unit of the CAD not any formation they join.

Incorrect. An IC joined to a unit counts as part of the unit he joined for all rules purposes. Without rules to provide a "unit within a unit" perspective, the IC is not operating as a model in a unit from the CAD, but a model in the unit from the Rising Crescendo detachment.

You are missing the option "Depends - read the rules in question".

SJ

Independent Characters-Special Rules. When an Independent Character joins a unit, it might have different special rules from those of the unit. Unless Specified in the rule itself (as in the Stubborn special rules), the units special rules are not conferred upon the Independent Character, and the Independent Character’ s special rules not conferred upon the unit. Special rules that are conferred to the unit only apply for as long as the Independent Character is with them.

And the detachment rule states they can only belong to 1 detachment/formation.

So the i.c. does join the unit, but he is not joining the formation per detachment rules.

On the opposite side of the arguement, allowing special rules to transfer, with the right amount of troops and i.c.'s you could potentially combine multiple formations into 1 mega "special rules" formation.

No Offense, but a simple search of "Independent Character" would have shown you that you will not get an answer for your question. There are already several multiple page locked threads, including 1 still on the front page.

The answer is, Ask your TO or your opponent.

 Blitzen the Solitaire wrote:
Independent Characters-Special Rules. When an Independent Character joins a unit, it might have different special rules from those of the unit. Unless Specified in the rule itself (as in the Stubborn special rules), the units special rules are not conferred upon the Independent Character, and the Independent Character’ s special rules not conferred upon the unit. Special rules that are conferred to the unit only apply for as long as the Independent Character is with them.

And the detachment rule states they can only belong to 1 detachment/formation.

So the i.c. does join the unit, but he is not joining the formation per detachment rules.

But he is not operating as a unit from his detachment when he is joined to another unit, and that is the key point. When he is alone, he is operating as a model in a unit from his detachment. When he is joined to another unit, he is operating as a model of the unit he joined and not as a unit from his detachment.

The key point to remember is when an IC is recognized as his own unit and when he is not. This does not change anything to do with the model, but very important when looking at how rules interact surrounding the IC and it interactions with the unit.

Some try to push the concept that the IC is still operating as their own unit while joined to another unit. But there are two problems with this. First is there are zero rules to support a unit within a unit concept. Second, this concept would allow me to shoot the Exarch unit while it is joined to the Harlequin unit, have zero Wounds be allocatable to the Harlequin unit, and the Exarch would not be able to Look Out Sir! any of those Wounds, any more than if he was standing naked alone in the middle of the table.

 Blitzen the Solitaire wrote:
On the opposite side of the arguement, allowing special rules to transfer, with the right amount of troops and i.c.'s you could potentially combine multiple formations into 1 mega "special rules" formation.

Yes, and no. Less than you would think, actually. Most Formation rules are specific to the units from their formations at best, and ICs cannot be recognized as their units while joined to another unit.

As a model, the IC does retain everything that comes on their Datasheet. But its unit identity is allowed to fluctuate and change depending on the circumstances it is placed in, namely which units it joins.

So, in the end, there are just the units, and those units have one, and only one, detachment connection (usually, the Warhost-style detachments confuse things a little).

Your question is too general. Most TOs are NOT allowing ICs to benefit from a unit's formation rules unless those rules specifically say they can effect units/models not in the formation, as is the case with the "Cast of Players" formation from that same book. It specifies that it effects eldar and dark eldar units as well.

RAW, the IC would get the rule. But every single major tournament has ruled that they don't, unless the rule specifically says otherwise. Otherwise you'd have Draigo joining groups of assault marines from the skyhammer annihilation force and deep strike charging on first turn.

Fragile wrote:
No Offense, but a simple search of "Independent Character" would have shown you that you will not get an answer for your question. There are already several multiple page locked threads, including 1 still on the front page.

The answer is, Ask your TO or your opponent.

Everything is simple if you know where to find the answer. Sorry I didn't know and wasn't trying to beat a deadhorse.

 BetrayTheWorld wrote:
Your question is too general. Most TOs are NOT allowing ICs to benefit from a unit's formation rules unless those rules specifically say they can effect units/models not in the formation, as is the case with the "Cast of Players" formation from that same book. It specifies that it effects eldar and dark eldar units as well.

RAW, the IC would get the rule. But every single major tournament has ruled that they don't, unless the rule specifically says otherwise. Otherwise you'd have Draigo joining groups of assault marines from the skyhammer annihilation force and deep strike charging on first turn.

This is not factual. While the ITC does not recognize the ability for an IC to be recognized a part of a unit for the purpose of detachment special rules they did not come from, the ETC takes the opposite approach.

But if you are going to a tournament using those standards, you should already be aware of this.

 Blitzen the Solitaire wrote:
Independent Characters-Special Rules. When an Independent Character joins a unit, it might have different special rules from those of the unit. Unless Specified in the rule itself (as in the Stubborn special rules), the units special rules are not conferred upon the Independent Character, and the Independent Character’ s special rules not conferred upon the unit. Special rules that are conferred to the unit only apply for as long as the Independent Character is with them.

The key there is the entire "Unless specified in the rule itself" line.

Are the formation benefits worded in such a way it suggests the special rules are conferred? Fleet stipulates the entire unit must be composed of models with the special rule to get the rerolls, so the IC clearly would not benefit from that (and, in actuality, would stop the unit from being able to use Fleet rerolls were he attached to it). The ability to "run and charge" also is a special rule without a special rule key wording to associate it with, and as such it does not specify the unit confers the ability. So, no it does not confer the ability.

My reasoning stands with yours, OP.

 SRSFACE wrote:
[The ability to "run and charge" also is a special rule without a special rule key wording to associate it with, and as such it does not specify the unit confers the ability. So, no it does not confer the ability.

It is as specific as Stubborn, which is the standard which we are instructed to go by.

Stubborn specifically says "a unit that contains at least one model with."

This lacks such wording. So, no, it's not as specific as Stubborn.

 SRSFACE wrote:
Stubborn specifically says "a unit that contains at least one model with."

This lacks such wording. So, no, it's not as specific as Stubborn.

A model with doesn't specify the IC either. So it cannot be more specific in identifying the IC as a member of the unit.

Which is what's needed.

For the IC rule both a unit with and a unit with at least one model with are precisely as specific as each other.

 SRSFACE wrote:

 Blitzen the Solitaire wrote:
Independent Characters-Special Rules. When an Independent Character joins a unit, it might have different special rules from those of the unit. Unless Specified in the rule itself (as in the Stubborn special rules), the units special rules are not conferred upon the Independent Character, and the Independent Character’ s special rules not conferred upon the unit. Special rules that are conferred to the unit only apply for as long as the Independent Character is with them.

The key there is the entire "Unless specified in the rule itself" line.

Are the formation benefits worded in such a way it suggests the special rules are conferred? Fleet stipulates the entire unit must be composed of models with the special rule to get the rerolls, so the IC clearly would not benefit from that (and, in actuality, would stop the unit from being able to use Fleet rerolls were he attached to it). The ability to "run and charge" also is a special rule without a special rule key wording to associate it with, and as such it does not specify the unit confers the ability. So, no it does not confer the ability.

My reasoning stands with yours, OP.

The IC in question also has fleet


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I guess the way I see it is. The IC has a battlefield role and takes up a FoC spot in the CAD.
I don't see how any IC could just leave their FoC when they want to, to join another one that's fielded especially if it's a FoC that has all its FoC spots filled.
That's pretty much saying you can only field so many FOC spots but IC's can leave the FOC and join a different one at will no matter if all spots in the FOC are already taken.

 SRSFACE wrote:
Stubborn specifically says "a unit that contains at least one model with."

This lacks such wording. So, no, it's not as specific as Stubborn.

That phrase confers or grants nothing. It is recognizing a level of possession, which is after any such conferring occurs.

Stubborn confers by granting "they" the ability to "ignore negative Leadership Modifiers. Who is "they"? The "unit" which has fulfilled the qualifications of "contains at least one model with this special rule" and "When... takes a Morale Check or Pinning Test".

IC is not stated anywhere in this. The closest it can be found is the reference to "unit" that IC "counts as being part of for all rules purposes" when joined to it.

If you look at the serpent stride formation you will see specific wording for a special rule that affects units in the formation+ any attached IC.

An IC attached to an unit is a model in that unit, which is why stubborn works.

an IC attached to an unit, is not a model from that units formation. It retains its own formation even when attached, much like it retains its own special rules, its own wargear, its own faction, and its own profile. Its army list entry does not cease to exist and it does not become a model from that army list entry chosen from the joined units formation. Nor does it count as being so, since counts as = is for rules purposes and it cant be is, so it cannot be counts as.

from the rulebook:

Special Rules
When an Independent Character joins a unit, it might have different special rules from
those of the unit. Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the Stubborn special rule), the
unit’s special rules are not conferred upon the Independent Character, and the
Independent Character’s special rules are not conferred upon the unit. Special rules that
are conferred to the unit only apply for as long as the Independent Character is with
them.

How can you check the characters special rules and the units special rules separately if they are the same?

When checking to see if there are different rules it has you look at the character, and look at the unit. How can you do that if the character is part of the unit for all rules purposes and you claim it is now part of their army list entry, to be in the specified formation that army list entry was chosen for (which is separate from the ICs army list entry for a different formation/detachment possibly)?

The character is part of the unit, but you look at their special rules separately(the separate army list entries, which may be in separate formations/detachments) by looking at their individual separate army list entries, otherwise you could never look at a characters special rules as being different when joined to an unit, in essence the character would lose its stats, wargear, and special rules when joined to an unit. Which is not how the game works, and from this rule quoted above shown that you look at them separately which you can only do if they are still separate army list entries when joined.

This of course does not mean they are separate units for actions, being targeted, etc, but they are separate when it comes to special rules because the rules specify that you look at them separately. Unless you can find the rules for a Captain on the army list entry for scout squad for example.

"While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes"

All rules. Not some rules.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
"While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes"

All rules. Not some rules.

If you really wanted to be technical there's a difference between rules and special rules, considering there's a separate special rules section in the same area


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Play on word's is probably the biggest hindrance to this game

A special rule is still a rule.