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It's a samurai showdown! Raven Guard vs. Harlequins in a live 40k battle report! Be sure to join us on our Twitch channel at 7pm PST for the fun.

https://www.twitch.tv/frontlinegaming_tv

We've got some interesting lists for you tonight, ladies and gents. Ninja Space Clowns vs. Sneaky Space Marines! Who will prevail?

We're practicing for Adepticon and will be playing scenario 2, Divide and Conquer.

Primary Detachment:
Harlequin Cegorach's Revenge Formation
1 Solitaire
3 Death Jesters
3 Shadowseers lvl 2, one has the Mask of Secrets
2 Units of 2 Skyweavers with Haywire cannons
3 x 5 man troupes with 3 Caresses, 1 Kiss and Haywire grenades on the Master
1 Voidweaver

Corsair Detachment:
Hate Bringer Coterie
Prince with Shadowfield, jetbike, void blade, Armor of Misery
Voiddreamer with Shadowfield, lvl 3,
3 Corsair Bikes with Scatterlasers

Dark Eldar Formation:
Scalpel Squadron with 2 Venoms and 10 Wracks with Splinter cannons on the Venoms.



Raven Guard 1850pts
Talon Strike Force
Battle Demi-Company Raven Guard
Chaplain Auspex 1 95
Tactical Marines M.Gun, C.Melta 5 90
D.Pod - 1 35
Tactical Marines M.Gun, C.Melta 5 90
Rhino - 1 35
Tactical Marines M.Gun, C.Melta 5 90
Rhino - 1 35
Attack Bike M.Melta 1 50
Devstator Squad L.Cannon x 4, 5 150
Shadowstrike Kill Team Raven Guard
Scouts - 5 55
Scouts - 5 55
Vanguard J.Packs, Fist x 2, L.Claws x 4, S.Shield, x 2, 10 290
Inquisition Detachment
Coteaz - 1 100
Skyhammer Annihilation Force Ultramarines
Assault Squad Vet Sarge, P.Axe 5 110
Assault Squad Vet Sarge, P.Axe 5 110
Devastator Squad H.Bolter x 4, 10 180
Drop Pod - 1 35
Devastator Squad Grav Cannon x 4, 5 210
Drop Pod - 1 35
Totals 73 1850

What do you all think? Who will come out on top?

Wow! Those are interesting lists.

First of all my prediction (hopes) for the win : Raven Guards!

I think the Eldars lack the numbers to quell that RG list. The allies should help of course, but still I think the number of objective secure units and deployment options will give the Ravens the upper hand.

I'm not sure if the veteran sergeant upgrade is worth it on the Skyhammer assault squads though - it looks like an easy 20pts to invest somewhere else. Locator beacon on the pod, camp cloaks for the SKT scouts and/or meltabombs here an there comes to mind.

Hope I can watch the game!

Cheers!

Removed

@jpwyrm

Yeah, it should be a very interesting game. The Harlies have a ton of tricks and leadership debuffs, and crazy shenanigans. My list is a bit more straight forward. A lot of it comes down to who wins the roll to choose first turn. Both of us really want to go second.

It'll be fun!

@Sheit27

? I don't understand what you're referring to.

Reecius, how are you guys playing the Shadow Strike Kill Team within the context of a Talon Strike Force? For example, if a TSF has a Demi-Company and a Kill Team can the demi-company captain join the vanguard and benefit from the deep strike assault? It's an interesting nuance because both the IC and the unit are now part of the same detachment (something that cannot occur otherwise).

@ reecius

did you really not hear about all of the drama Josh caused at March madness? lol

@Panzer Leader

We're playing it as the special rules for the Shadow Strike Kill Team special assault form reserves rules only work on the unit, not on any attached characters. It's the same way we play Skyhammer.

@Arcanii

No, I did not. I spoke to to the TO and he said there was some confusion about relics on a model but that it had been handled.

Either way, I would prefer for this thread to not devolve into a he said she said about an event that I was not at and cannot attest to what may or may not have hapenned, if you don't mind.

Cool. Will that be codified at some point or voted on? I can see trying to prevent abuse of the rule from allied detachments/CADs/etc but within the context of a TSF where you can fit in 2 ICs at the most at 1850 on average I don't know if it needs the nerf.

I don't want to spoil the thread but let's make it clear. I played Josh last round and he flat out cheated me.

While he informed his opponent in 5th round he had an armorbane weapon that rolled a stompa in one round, he told me during 6th round he had zephyrglaives on his harlequin bikes that tore through my bikes, he cast multiple terrify powers from his deathstar, he told me he had a shard that caused ID and challenged my warlord (shard wasn't in his list), and used corsair powers to warp around the board, the second time not even doing the dangerous terrain check for 6" movement. Long story short the guy should have his points taken away and given back to his opponents and as a person who represented frontline he should apologize to the community if it was a mistake and return the money to the tournament he attended. It has left quite the sour taste for everyone and that's not fair for frontline or ITC.

Also, because I love drama, a Corsair Prince has to be the army's warlord, so none of those sweet Harlequin warlord traits...


Still, I love you guys' batreps. And I'm very happy to see non-traditional armies in competitive contexts. More of that, please.

Dont want to spoil the thread but.. here is my comment to spoil the thread... lol

While we are at it i thibk someone misplayed somthing at bao last year... can we fix that too?


On a serious note that game was brutal to watch... alpha strike armies are hard counters to harlequins. If harlequins go first then they can beat just about any army... if they go second then they can lose to just about every army. That simple!

Removed

Haywire... no killing a stompa with haywire would be hard... with harlequins caress it isnt a stretch. I killed 2 ik in one assault phase with harlequins caress.

Here is what you fail to see:
1. You have no proof that he cheated. If he did cheat then you should of brought it up at the time. Some of the mistakes are pretty easy to catch and stop on the spot.
2. You didnt notify anyone of said cheating until days later after the event. After an event concludes it is extremely hard to get something like this figured out...
3. Everyone hates to lose... find a way to cope with it better rather then trying complaining on the internet in multiple places. I have taken some tough losses example: indy open 2013. I have also been cheated adepticon final 16 2014. It sucks but there is nothing anyone can do at this point. Move on and learn from it. You come off as an extremely sore loser that is only concerned with itc rankings. Its likely your not but the context of your complaints come off as such.
4. If in doubt about something.. ask. I throughly review army list before starting games... so as to not be surprised by ay surprise wargear. Had you done this then you could of said i dont see that item on yout list.. solves the whole problem right there.
5. Roll dice and have fun and please stop causing drama.


Just my two cents.. take it or leave it. Tk out

Agreed with Tombking 100%

I myself recently found out I was playing blasts against VSG 100% wrong and was corrected of that.. I "cheated" several people by allocating multiple hits from the blasts to the shields when in fact it counts as 1 wound vs the VSG.. I would be in agony if someone actually thought I knew that and was purposefully cheating them.. it would especially suck if someone waited to get online and claim I did such a thing as there is no defense or opportunity for me to apologize / correct the mistake.

Fact of the matter is nobody posting in this thread who plays regular / semi regular WH40k is innocent of this.. we ALL get rules wrong etc.. if you really think Josh actively cheated please get proof and as Tombking said handle it ON THE SPOT. If he is guilty he should be punished but if he made mistakes like the rest of us OR he didn't do anything and this is all hear-say then that is doubly reason to handle this better.

 Tomb King wrote:
Haywire... no killing a stompa with haywire would be hard... with harlequins caress it isnt a stretch. I killed 2 ik in one assault phase with harlequins caress.

Here is what you fail to see:
1. You have no proof that he cheated. If he did cheat then you should of brought it up at the time. Some of the mistakes are pretty easy to catch and stop on the spot.
2. You didnt notify anyone of said cheating until days later after the event. After an event concludes it is extremely hard to get something like this figured out...
3. Everyone hates to lose... find a way to cope with it better rather then trying complaining on the internet in multiple places. I have taken some tough losses example: indy open 2013. I have also been cheated adepticon final 16 2014. It sucks but there is nothing anyone can do at this point. Move on and learn from it. You come off as an extremely sore loser that is only concerned with itc rankings. Its likely your not but the context of your complaints come off as such.
4. If in doubt about something.. ask. I throughly review army list before starting games... so as to not be surprised by ay surprise wargear. Had you done this then you could of said i dont see that item on yout list.. solves the whole problem right there.
5. Roll dice and have fun and please stop causing drama.


Just my two cents.. take it or leave it. Tk out

1. No, I don't have a video of him cheating, but you must be right, multiple top players at the GT all just decided to lie about what happened and create a witch hunt. Are you serious? I understand you trying to defend the community and what not but you weren't even there. Try taking both sides into consideration before being the white knight of 40k.

You have to realize the situation, when most of these players have only been around ITC for a year or two and someone shows up at a GT announcing the are on team zero comp and a FLG rep, people are going to give them some trust. The problem was that there was no "ace" judge at the tournament that players would have been able to go to, so everything was pretty much being diced off at tables and no lists were reviewed before hand.

yes, the players have the responsibility to make sure they go over their opponents lists and keep the rules during their game in check, but again how many times are you going to second guess someone when you don't know their list at all because quite frankly no one players harlequins and most players were under the assumption that a FLG rep would be very honest.

2. This guy tabled almost all of his opponents by turn 2, no one was able to go watch the games because they were still playing their own games at this time, there was no list review by the TO, there was no judge at top table, and it wasn't until all of the people who had played against him were able to talk afterwards that the information came about.

I've never intentionally tried to stir the pot and create drama.. of course I wasn't going to come out and blast this guy. We went through the proper channels to try and resolve this problem but the only thing that got brought up was his list having 2 relics. Nothing of the bad play.
That's why it wasn't spilled the night of/day after.

3. I didn't even play against this guy so you couldn't be more wrong about me being sore for a loss or trying to power game. I was however on the table next to him for two rounds in a row and talked with the other players who played him I would like nothing more than for this to all be a big misunderstanding because I respect and appreciate the 40k community as I believe you do and that's is why you are looking out for a fellow gamer. I'm trying to do the same, It's just not fair for this to go unheard and swept under the rug. I've never experienced a RTT or GT where something like this has happened. It wasn't just one incident of a rules mishap.

4. Again, you're absolutely right, it was his opponents responsibility to know the game, the rules, and check his list. but does it make it right for him to walk away just because he wasn't caught?


Edit: I realized I'm logged in on a different account on two different computers. Arcanii/sheit27 are both me for clarification.

@Sheit27

I appreciate you looking out for the good name of FLG and T0C but just to be clear, Josh does not represent Frontline Gaming. He's not an employee of the company nor is he a representative of it. He is a member of Team Zero Comp, but the team is actually not managed by FLG, anymore. For example, I am now just a member of the team as is Frankie. The Captain of the team is InControl, and the guys are building a totally separate website for T0C.

Not saying that to throw anyone under the bus or anything, just want to be clear.

Sounds like there was a lot of misunderstandings in your game though, which sucks and I am sorry you did not enjoy yourself. I would talk to Josh about it directly instead of posting about it online, he is very open to discussing things and easy going I have found. I am sure he'd be willing to listen to your perspective if you have a civil discussion with him about it.

@Thud

I love different lists, too! I prefer playing different lists, too and think they add a lot to the game beyond the usual meta lists.

 Reecius wrote:
@Sheit27

I appreciate you looking out for the good name of FLG and T0C but just to be clear, Josh does not represent Frontline Gaming. He's not an employee of the company nor is he a representative of it. He is a member of Team Zero Comp, but the team is actually not managed by FLG, anymore. For example, I am now just a member of the team as is Frankie. The Captain of the team is InControl, and the guys are building a totally separate website for T0C.

Not saying that to throw anyone under the bus or anything, just want to be clear.

Sounds like there was a lot of misunderstandings in your game though, which sucks and I am sorry you did not enjoy yourself. I would talk to Josh about it directly instead of posting about it online, he is very open to discussing things and easy going I have found. I am sure he'd be willing to listen to your perspective if you have a civil discussion with him about it.

Again, I didn't play him so I'm not on here being sore about a loss, and I didn't spill all of this either. I was however next to the table when problems started coming up. I think both you and Brett and confusing my posts with Emperors Knights's post.

Since it was spilled I just wanted to make it clear what really did happen and what really was been complained about.

I'm sorry this was spilled here, it's of course the wrong place for it but I think there is frustration from the players who did go up against him because they went through the proper communication channels but the right information wasn't presented.

before we started gaming Josh put a shout out for fat mats and said he was a FLG rep, so you might want to clear that up with him.

No worries man, no hard feelings on my end. Communication is challenging and it is easy to get things confused. A frustrating game can leave a bad taste in your mouth, so I do understand where everyone is coming from. However, I can say from TO'ing so many events over the years, that things like this boil down to honest mistakes and miscommunication far more frequently than maliciousness. I of course could be wrong in this case (and I will never know as I was not there) but it's tough to clarify things after it's all gone down. It all becomes hearsay.

I will talk to him about that as while I am sure he means well he is not in fact a rep of the company.

Arcanii wrote:

 Tomb King wrote:
Haywire... no killing a stompa with haywire would be hard... with harlequins caress it isnt a stretch. I killed 2 ik in one assault phase with harlequins caress.

Here is what you fail to see:
1. You have no proof that he cheated. If he did cheat then you should of brought it up at the time. Some of the mistakes are pretty easy to catch and stop on the spot.
2. You didnt notify anyone of said cheating until days later after the event. After an event concludes it is extremely hard to get something like this figured out...
3. Everyone hates to lose... find a way to cope with it better rather then trying complaining on the internet in multiple places. I have taken some tough losses example: indy open 2013. I have also been cheated adepticon final 16 2014. It sucks but there is nothing anyone can do at this point. Move on and learn from it. You come off as an extremely sore loser that is only concerned with itc rankings. Its likely your not but the context of your complaints come off as such.
4. If in doubt about something.. ask. I throughly review army list before starting games... so as to not be surprised by ay surprise wargear. Had you done this then you could of said i dont see that item on yout list.. solves the whole problem right there.
5. Roll dice and have fun and please stop causing drama.


Just my two cents.. take it or leave it. Tk out

1. No, I don't have a video of him cheating, but you must be right, multiple top players at the GT all just decided to lie about what happened and create a witch hunt. Are you serious? I understand you trying to defend the community and what not but you weren't even there. Try taking both sides into consideration before being the white knight of 40k.

You have to realize the situation, when most of these players have only been around ITC for a year or two and someone shows up at a GT announcing the are on team zero comp and a FLG rep, people are going to give them some trust. The problem was that there was no "ace" judge at the tournament that players would have been able to go to, so everything was pretty much being diced off at tables and no lists were reviewed before hand.

yes, the players have the responsibility to make sure they go over their opponents lists and keep the rules during their game in check, but again how many times are you going to second guess someone when you don't know their list at all because quite frankly no one players harlequins and most players were under the assumption that a FLG rep would be very honest.

2. This guy tabled almost all of his opponents by turn 2, no one was able to go watch the games because they were still playing their own games at this time, there was no list review by the TO, there was no judge at top table, and it wasn't until all of the people who had played against him were able to talk afterwards that the information came about.

I've never intentionally tried to stir the pot and create drama.. of course I wasn't going to come out and blast this guy. We went through the proper channels to try and resolve this problem but the only thing that got brought up was his list having 2 relics. Nothing of the bad play.
That's why it wasn't spilled the night of/day after.

3. I didn't even play against this guy so you couldn't be more wrong about me being sore for a loss or trying to power game. I was however on the table next to him for two rounds in a row and talked with the other players who played him I would like nothing more than for this to all be a big misunderstanding because I respect and appreciate the 40k community as I believe you do and that's is why you are looking out for a fellow gamer. I'm trying to do the same, It's just not fair for this to go unheard and swept under the rug. I've never experienced a RTT or GT where something like this has happened. It wasn't just one incident of a rules mishap.

4. Again, you're absolutely right, it was his opponents responsibility to know the game, the rules, and check his list. but does it make it right for him to walk away just because he wasn't caught?


Edit: I realized I'm logged in on a different account on two different computers. Arcanii/sheit27 are both me for clarification.

Apologies for mistaking you as the other gentlemen who was ranting and raving this last week to no end. I would also caution commenting on a players antics in a game if you didnt witness them first hand... hearing things second hand can leave room for a misleading account of the events... hence why the phrase game never comes around the group as the same phrase it originated as...
To conclude: Rules mistakes happen at all levels of the game... i have made several myself... im pretty sure for the first half of an event i was moving the relic the wrong way and didnt get fixed until a buddy named Jonn Bunn was referencing it during a break... I ran back to apologize to my opponent and there were no hard feelings.

Best of luck in your future games and events and i prey none of us have to endure these kind of situations...

That is why I commented. I got tired of the confusion. You ask why I didn't call him on it or list check his every move? Well first we had spent 40 minutes already debating rules the first turn, we were down to a little under 2 hours by the time the game actually started and on top table at the end of a GT. I don't expect anyone to flat out lie about their list and wargear and you get to a point where you just don't want to debate anymore.

I would have been happy to call him on it after the game but I didn't want to be the sore sport and ask to review his list after her tabled me (like 3 other opponents that weekend on top table). So yes, it is my fault for not spending more time rules checking but it would also be a little more helpful if, when the community brings up allegations, some sort of inquiry was launched. It'd be a pretty simple thing to look into whether other opponents felt something was off.

As for the stompa and kiss thing, he multi assaulted and his troupe were engaged with ork boys, the way it happened he only had about an inch of space to attack through to the stompa so RAW he couldn't engage more than one or two models on the actual stompa.

I didn't call him on the multiple psychic powers because they didn't really affect me until the last turn and it was all but over at that point anyway so a single combat squad wasn't going to make the game for me. My takeaway is this though, you can sit there and argue all day without ever playing or you can have some trust that you're both honorable players. Sadly if you do the trust route and find out later you're burned then apparently some in the community say it's your fault for not speaking up sooner and causing a ruckus at the tournament and basically be better so someone can't cheat you. Cool, thanks for the advice.

Emperors Knights wrote:
That is why I commented. I got tired of the confusion. You ask why I didn't call him on it or list check his every move? Well first we had spent 40 minutes already debating rules the first turn, we were down to a little under 2 hours by the time the game actually started and on top table at the end of a GT. I don't expect anyone to flat out lie about their list and wargear and you get to a point where you just don't want to debate anymore.

I would have been happy to call him on it after the game but I didn't want to be the sore sport and ask to review his list after her tabled me (like 3 other opponents that weekend on top table). So yes, it is my fault for not spending more time rules checking but it would also be a little more helpful if, when the community brings up allegations, some sort of inquiry was launched. It'd be a pretty simple thing to look into whether other opponents felt something was off.

As for the stompa and kiss thing, he multi assaulted and his troupe were engaged with ork boys, the way it happened he only had about an inch of space to attack through to the stompa so RAW he couldn't engage more than one or two models on the actual stompa.

I didn't call him on the multiple psychic powers because they didn't really affect me until the last turn and it was all but over at that point anyway so a single combat squad wasn't going to make the game for me. My takeaway is this though, you can sit there and argue all day without ever playing or you can have some trust that you're both honorable players. Sadly if you do the trust route and find out later you're burned then apparently some in the community say it's your fault for not speaking up sooner and causing a ruckus at the tournament and basically be better so someone can't cheat you. Cool, thanks for the advice.

I understand you are upset but please try and tone it down a bit.. nobody is blaming you for anything. Tomb King / myself are simply saying when this happens going online after the fact is a really bad way to handle it. See my other post as an example.. we ALL make mistakes in WH40k every single game likely and if someone took that as malicious cheating and waited until later to post about it publicly there is no way the accused don't come away from that looking bad. It's a really simple point.. it is not that you are guilty of anything it's that people are asking that you consider handling it differently next time. Now you maybe know?

As far as Josh is concerned I don't know what to say other than now that it has been made clear that you/several people at that tourney had a problem if more issues should occur there is a bit of a "paper trail" so to speak. I will speak with Josh but he has already spoken with the team regarding this and seems to feel that he is innocent. That is part of the silly part of this now that we are online and not at the event you guys are upset (which sucks) and he is upset but no real answers can come out of it. As I said earlier though should this kind of thing keep happening then we can know whether there is an issue or not.

I'd be happy to go through other options if some existed. Is there a report or complaint option in the future? This is likely my 8th major tournament and the first time I've ever had this experience so I apologize if this seems a little malicious. It is simply to ensure that our community consistently improves and poor behavior is not hidden away but exposed and strongly discouraged in the future.

Thanks for listening though, seriously that means a lot.

The other options (outside of handling it on site) would be to contact the person in question, let them know the bad experience you/others had and give them a chance to explain themselves. If they cackle and go "oh I cheated on purpose!" then of course you turn to public shame so we can identify the issue and remove it from the field.

It's been said to death the reasons why going public first with 2nd hand information is bad so I think we can move past that.

Anyways, heres to a better gaming experience in the future!

Well, that battle was somewhat predictable. Cegorach's Revenge is probably the biggest trap in the Harlequin 'dex, and against a Skyhammer Opponent Elimination Force it wasn't gonna stand a chance.

Why is the Revenge a trap?

The rerolling 1's is not worth getting stuck with 3 Death Jesters and 3 Shadowseers.

You do not want to be taking saves with your 'quins. The big bonus of the formation is rerolling 1's on saves. The biggest bonus you get is going to be on the Solitaire and whoever has the Starmist Raiment.

The tax is a little worse than it seems, since with only 3 possible starweavers Revenge forces you either to bring allies to embark all 6 of your special characters (for Raiders) or you have to do some kind of tricky character combo (I used to run a Raiment Shadowseer with a DJ as a 2-man unit) or go it on foot.

Foot harlequins, even with the occasional save reroll...are not things you can reliably use (at least, in my opinion). The additional mobility you gain from the starweaver and the diminishing returns from more harlequins is so much that I'm almost always going to want weavers or some kind of open topped transport. The vulnerability they have to just basic weaponry when rolling on foot is significant even if they do have Veil of Tears up all the time (which they won't.)

With Revenge, you will guaranteed be paying for at least 1 Death Jester you really do not need, you lock yourself out of the Harlequins' best formation because you're required to bring a Solitaire, and you don't gain much from the extra ~3% defenses on your basic 5++ guys.

Take a look at the difference just between a basic Masque paired with a Heroes' path, and the weaknesses of Revenge become obvious.

HP gets you an even beefier Solitaire vs shooting, extra board control and a Shadowseer+Death Jester with 2+ cover saves. Rather than 3 death jesters where maybe 1 has a good target, you get 1 death jester who won't die who can infiltrate near the best target for him. And if you find you want more Death Jesters or Shadowseers? You've got 7 elite slots to play with.