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So, I joined my first tournament and I've played 2 games so far. We play every other week. This last game I played the most experienced player. A lot of what happened I just took his word for, but now that I have the time to reflect and think about it I have a few questions.

It was a 1k point game. I was playing necron, and he was playing space marines with an inquisitor. I don't know much about space marines or inquisitors. My question is this. Every turn his inquisitor was able to summon daemons from the warp. I added it up after the game and he summoned a total of 315 points of daemons. 2 groups of Daemonettes, seekers and a Harold with 30 points of upgrades. So my 1k army was against a 1315point army by turn 4.

I just want to know if that's legal? It was effectively a free CAD.

Also, I had my models positioned 1 inch apart making a wall to deny a objective contest he was attempting. He knocked over some models of mine and argued there was enough room for him to move through. I didn't argue too much, him being the most experienced player, it being just a game, and the fact I want to be able to play against him and other people at the store in the future.
What is the protocol for when models are knocked over?


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I think this is the wrong forum. No idea how to delete it. So enjoy.

Yes. He can summon using Malefic Daemonology. Just make sure he's not ignoring the Perils on any doubles when doing powers. And on the obj. It is really hard to deny by doing a wall around it with models. All he has to do is be 3in away from the edge of the objective. Which is rather easy to do.

Re: the generation of Daemon units, it's legal if he rolled those powers on the Daemonology: Malefic table. Because he's playing Space Marines, any roll of a doubles causes a Perils. This includes dice that weren't 4+. So if he rolled 5 dice and rolled 2-2-4-5-6, then the double 2s force a Perils of the Warp check. The Primaris power of Summoning requires 3 Warp Charges to get off. I would be extremely surprised if he managed to roll that three times through the course of the game and not have a Perils come up. If he did the Perils rolls then all is well. If not, then he's not playing properly.

Re: the 1" apart wall and trying to move through, it depends on whether he assaulted you or was trying to move or Run past. If the latter, there's no possibility he can do that as any movement by or around an enemy model requires a 1" buffer while moving at all times. If the former, if the space between your models was wide enough to allow the enemy base to slide between then that model can do so, but several things have to be checked first before it can be:

1. Models in the assaulting unit have to maintain 2" coherency with a model already in base contact with a model in your unit
2. Models in the assaulting unit have to get into base contact with a model that is not currently in base contact with an assaulting model before getting into base contact with a model that is
3. Models in the assaulting unit that cannot get into base contact with any model can pile in as close as possible to those that are with the intent of trying to get into base contact with something

If these three rules are adhered to during the course of engaging with your unit in close combat, then considerations can be made for enemy models to move between 1"+ gaps between your models to engage unengaged models. Care should be taken to see if the base of a model can slip through the gaps between your models. Knocking over is not cool and shows impatience with the process.

If there's a question whether my model can slip through a gap between your models and I knock one over, I personally err on the side of caution and assume there's not enough room. Keep in mind when determining the space, though, that the model's base is all that's required to fit through the gap. Some models hang over the base's edge, but for movement and engagement purposes only the base's diameter matters.

It's tough as a new player to figure out the social dynamics of experienced players. Moving forward you can ensure there's plainly less than 1" between your models when you make such a wall. Just point out as the opponent moves in that there is a deliberate lack of space for a 1" diameter base to fit through. If there's debate about that, have the gaps measured to confirm taking care to not bump the models at all. You can insist that you hold the tape measure close as any bumps by you are your fault, not gamesmanship on the part of the opponent.

Thanks for the informative reply Tropic. I do believe he made some parils rolls, I was just cautious of all of the units coming on. I will be sure to watch for all doubles rolled in the future.

As far as the wall of units, I was blocking a sole surviving space marine and after your reply I do feel a bit cheated, but hey, now I know I need to be extra deliberate in my measuring and argue my case in the future. He was not assaulting, just movement phase. Unfortunately it was a game changer, but it gives me hope that I actually played at his skill level. Fighting off the endless daemons, or so it seemed, and have it all come down to that one objective.

In preparation of your next contest, I recommend having the core rulebook reference ready to show. It's in the "Models in the Way" section on p.18.

Meatloafwarrior wrote:Also, I had my models positioned 1 inch apart making a wall to deny a objective contest he was attempting. He knocked over some models of mine and argued there was enough room for him to move through.

This is absolutely not permissible. You cannot move any of your models within 1 inch of any enemy model unless you are engaging in close quarter combat.

Can Inquisitors even roll on Demonology (Malefic)? Codex: Inquisition specifically states they roll on Demonology (Sanctic), Divination, Pyromancy, Telekinesis and Telepathy. The Psyker Henchman has the same list as well.

Tropic Thunder wrote:
In preparation of your next contest, I recommend having the core rulebook reference ready to show. It's in the "Models in the Way" section on p.18.

I believe he knows the rule. He's a 13 year veteran players.




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Traditio wrote:

Meatloafwarrior wrote:Also, I had my models positioned 1 inch apart making a wall to deny a objective contest he was attempting. He knocked over some models of mine and argued there was enough room for him to move through.

This is absolutely not permissible. You cannot move any of your models within 1 inch of any enemy model unless you are engaging in close quarter combat.

This is why I felt a bit cheated, but it's just a game and knowledge is power. It won't happen again.


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 GoonBandito wrote:
Can Inquisitors even roll on Demonology (Malefic)? Codex: Inquisition specifically states they roll on Demonology (Sanctic), Divination, Pyromancy, Telekinesis and Telepathy. The Psyker Henchman has the same list as well.

I unfortunately do not have that codex.

 Meatloafwarrior wrote:

Tropic Thunder wrote:
In preparation of your next contest, I recommend having the core rulebook reference ready to show. It's in the "Models in the Way" section on p.18.

I believe he knows the rule. He's a 13 year veteran players.

If he knows it then he's taking advantage of a newbie. Not cool.

I apparently have the last edition of the Inquisition codex, but if I remember correctly I believe it is only Santic Demaonology as well.

you can't cast them directly with henchmen or inquisitors but they can be used to generate the power die all you need to cast them is the guard psy formation or a librarian.


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 Meatloafwarrior wrote:


I unfortunately do not have that codex.

He should be able to show you his codex -> Thi will be a ebook in case of inq :\

Also remember the rules change a lot in this game so not every vet knows the uptodate rules. Fact is a old vet is more likely to get things wrong as he is pulling it from old rules.

Oldmike wrote:
Also remember the rules change a lot in this game so not every vet knows the uptodate rules. Fact is a old vet is more likely to get things wrong as he is pulling it from old rules.

This, especially ebooks like the Inquisition codex do suffer from this. They get updated without the fuss of a new codex release. It took me a long time to get the power weapon to power sword only update for crusaders in the last update. I don't check those things on a regular base, the sad thing was that it instantly made 30%+ of my army invalid. I don't know how long I have played with an illegal army but it could have been longer then a year.

 oldzoggy wrote:

Oldmike wrote:
Also remember the rules change a lot in this game so not every vet knows the uptodate rules. Fact is a old vet is more likely to get things wrong as he is pulling it from old rules.

This, especially ebooks like the Inquisition codex do suffer from this. They get updated without the fuss of a new codex release. It took me a long time to get the power weapon to power sword only update for crusaders in the last update. I don't check those things on a regular base, the sad thing was that it instantly made 30%+ of my army invalid. I don't know how long I have played with an illegal army but it could have been longer then a year.

Wait is that really a thing about the power weapon change? Well good thing I haven't used Crusaders in a while.

You must stay 1" away from enemy models. This means that you need a 3" gap between models to squeeze a model on a 1" base through.

Since that would make the unit out of coherency this means that you simply cannot move between members of a unit.

My inquisition codex does not give them access to malefic daemonology.

I believe standard SM psykers can do that though? Librarians? I know for a fact my IG psykers can roll on malefic, and they're expendable enough that I do that all the time

He knocked over some models of mine and argued there was enough room for him to move through

I dont quite understand this. Are you saying he physically knocked the models over on their sides or something and then claimed there was a gap to move through?
Or he actually killed said models creating a gap in the lines?

If the former, thats totally illegal, no rule anywhere allows players to "knock over" models to create gaps to charge/move through.
If the latter, it would depend on the physical inches as others have mentioned.

Yeah, thats something they can do as many people have said, a lot of times, when they have tournaments that are 1000 pts and below they will ban that ability since you can summon so much points worth of units.

Mate from what I hear you got cheated:/

just a tip: next time when you see something that feels wrong just ask him for the explanation and let him show it to you in his codex/brb. If he can not proof he is right he is cheating:-)

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Yeah, thats something they can do as many people have said, a lot of times, when they have tournaments that are 1000 pts and below they will ban that ability since you can summon so much points worth of units.

Actually, I've just confirmed its not something they can do.

At least, not with inquisitors..

I would jsit ask to see the summoning rule he is using, but yes you can summon. Sometimes the summoner dies as a sacrifice though, or rolls perils. Sometimes older players are more annoying to play because they are rule snobs though... Just say you intended for them to be 1 spaced when you placed them, but yes, 40k can get really gakky when that fraction of an inch can win or lose you the game.

Take it from another newbie: Never assume another player is right. While they are rare, some people will take advantage of your inexperience to get an easy win. As arthorn said: if something feels wrong, it probably is. You always have a right to look at your opponent's army list and/or codex.

Also, as I recall, when you summon stuff, you can't give them any upgrades whatsoever. So, the herald with 30 points of upgrades should have been a stock herald.

 EnTyme wrote:
Take it from another newbie: Never assume another player is right. While they are rare, some people will take advantage of your inexperience to get an easy win. As arthorn said: if something feels wrong, it probably is. You always have a right to look at your opponent's army list and/or codex.

Even playing for years, I wish more people would ask me about rules and make me look them up on occasions.
I get so many rules wrong for months or more since no one asked if I was doing it right. As GW pile in more rules this only gets worse :(

 oldzoggy wrote:
you can't cast them directly with henchmen or inquisitors but they can be used to generate the power die all you need to cast them is the guard psy formation or a librarian.

I'm not sure if he had the formation, but I did kill his librarian on turn two because he said the librarian gave +4 or 5 warp charges, I don't remember.


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 oldzoggy wrote:

Oldmike wrote:
Also remember the rules change a lot in this game so not every vet knows the uptodate rules. Fact is a old vet is more likely to get things wrong as he is pulling it from old rules.

This, especially ebooks like the Inquisition codex do suffer from this. They get updated without the fuss of a new codex release. It took me a long time to get the power weapon to power sword only update for crusaders in the last update. I don't check those things on a regular base, the sad thing was that it instantly made 30%+ of my army invalid. I don't know how long I have played with an illegal army but it could have been longer then a year.

I will keep this in mind, thanks


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the_scotsman wrote:
My inquisition codex does not give them access to malefic daemonology.

I believe standard SM psykers can do that though? Librarians? I know for a fact my IG psykers can roll on malefic, and they're expendable enough that I do that all the time

Very interesting.


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 Ratius wrote:

He knocked over some models of mine and argued there was enough room for him to move through

I dont quite understand this. Are you saying he physically knocked the models over on their sides or something and then claimed there was a gap to move through?
Or he actually killed said models creating a gap in the lines?

If the former, thats totally illegal, no rule anywhere allows players to "knock over" models to create gaps to charge/move through.
If the latter, it would depend on the physical inches as others have mentioned.

Physically. He bumped them with his arm while measuring.


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He did roll on the perils table about three times, and his inquisitor did take wounds. I do remember that.

You're a baddie. The guy pulled a fast one on ya.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
Also, as I recall, when you summon stuff, you can't give them any upgrades whatsoever. So, the herald with 30 points of upgrades should have been a stock herald.

This is incorrect. The Malefic power Sacrifice expressly allows up to 30pts in upgrades.

I really don't think a single librarian can add that many warp charge to your pool.

It can't. The most warp charges you can get from a Librarian is 2 from a Mastery Level 2, or if it's a special case (Special Character, such as Mephiston in the Blood Angels codex, etc) you can have a Mastery Level 3 Psyker, who would in turn add 3 more warp charge dice. There may be ways to get other stuff to Mastery Level 3, but I'm not familiar with them.

Unless I'm mistaken, there's no single character or unit that is Mastery Level 4, let alone 5.

Sounds like you were playing against someone who A.) Plays fast and loose with the rules and doesn't read everything they run in detail. Or, B.) Is a total nob and not someone I'd ever drop dice against personally after pulling these kinds of stunts regardless of A, and or B being in place.

If he knocked models over in the movement phase, and then claimed he could move between them (Coming within 1" of your models) then he deserves to be black balled from playing until he admits he cheated and promises never to do that kind of thing again. If there's a second offense then he needs to be perma-removed from the gaming group.

Ain't nobody got time for that crap.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

Fateweaver, Eldrad, and ahriman are all mastery level 4. That's all I know of