Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hi! I am going to try running assault based space marine armies. I am having trouble determining wether to take vanguard veterans or Honor guard. After power weapons the Vanguard are 1 point cheaper and compared to the honor guard lack that juicy 2 up armor. However Vanguards can have jump packs and storm shields.

Between the two which do you prefer to lead the charge into battle?

Both are viable choices.

I think it really is a coin toss. 2+ is nice, but no access to invulns hurts. VV have more flex, but are just 3+ marines who can die to massed bolter fire.

Forced to choose in a vacuum, with no knowledge of your local meta or the rest of the list, I’d lean towards the VVs, as they are a more flexible unit. But I’ve used both to good effect.

Both of them are pretty viable choices. VV's have the speed advantage with jump packs, but they're easier to kill. I would personally prefer VV's, as my lists tend to have lots of harder targets already, the speed of VV's helps them to engage more units on their own terms

VV's are more expensive when kitted out with Storm Shields and Power Weapons, but that is the best way to run them, IMO. They will also end up lacking any form of shooting, which is a bit of a letdown. HG have bolters and bolt pistols in addition to their power weapons, so you can pop some pistol shots off before you charge. They also can take a Chapter Banner, which increases their killing ability.

Personally, I like Honour Guard better. I run them with a Librarian and Pedro Kantor. Pedro turns them into a blender, the Librarian increases their survivability (while aiding in the blending).

There is another option in the form of a Command Squad. It'll run you more points, but you can make them a lot more survivable with an Apothecary and some Storm Shields. A squad or 3+/3++/5+++ is pretty darn tough and just as killy as the VVs.

How do you transport your honor guard ?

I put mine in a Drop Pod. The only other options are a Stormraven or a Land Raider, and both of those are 200+ point bullet magnets. The Drop Pod means they aren't charging turn one, but they probably wouldn't be in a Land Raider and definitely aren't in a Stormraven. But, because of that, I have to need up their survivability with some psychic phase stuff.

VV are just more functional as an assault unit. Access to storm shields and jump packs, plus the reroll to charge range means they are more durable to plasma/grav/Smash attacks, are more able to go where they're needed (super important) and are more reliably able to actually get in a fight.

But, once they are on the ground, they are slow, if the ennemy wants to avoid you honour guard, he'll probably succeed.
How do you avoid this casvalremdeikun ?
VV seems easier to play as Deschenus pointed out, but I would love to play HG .

 Nevelon wrote:
Both are viable choices.

I think it really is a coin toss. 2+ is nice, but no access to invulns hurts. VV have more flex, but are just 3+ marines who can die to massed bolter fire.

Forced to choose in a vacuum, with no knowledge of your local meta or the rest of the list, I’d lean towards the VVs, as they are a more flexible unit. But I’ve used both to good effect.

Disagree. 25 ppm for artificer armor, boltgun, boltpistol and a power weapon is a pretty sweet deal.

VV can get really expensive really quickly (pointswise), and they're about as easy to kill as...marines.

Traditio wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:
Both are viable choices.

I think it really is a coin toss. 2+ is nice, but no access to invulns hurts. VV have more flex, but are just 3+ marines who can die to massed bolter fire.

Forced to choose in a vacuum, with no knowledge of your local meta or the rest of the list, I’d lean towards the VVs, as they are a more flexible unit. But I’ve used both to good effect.

Disagree. 25 ppm for artificer armor, boltgun, boltpistol and a power weapon is a pretty sweet deal.

VV can get really expensive really quickly (pointswise), and they're about as easy to kill as...marines.

Not going to argue that they are a deal for 25ppm. But they are also footslogging at that price. So you options are either a drop pod, so you eat a turn of shooting, or an expensive LR. Both are going to boost the effective price to get the same number of guys into CC. VV are more independent, and can work with JPs to good effect. HG die just like tacs to AP2, while the VVs can take SSs for an invuln.

There are pros and cons to both. Each are better vs. certain targets, or weaker vs. different thing. I’d not write off either of them as inferior.

Or now with Geomancy just get a piece of terrain filled with honor guard and THROW THEM at the enemy. Hows that for transport?

I mean, Honour Guard can take a pod, plus the Banner is able to be a force multiplier.

Vanguard are more expensive to equip, but on the bright side you don't have to give EVERYONE a Power Weapon or Shield.

Nevelon wrote:Not going to argue that they are a deal for 25ppm. But they are also footslogging at that price. So you options are either a drop pod, so you eat a turn of shooting, or an expensive LR. Both are going to boost the effective price to get the same number of guys into CC. VV are more independent, and can work with JPs to good effect. HG die just like tacs to AP2, while the VVs can take SSs for an invuln.

There are pros and cons to both. Each are better vs. certain targets, or weaker vs. different thing. I’d not write off either of them as inferior.

Rhino?

VVs have a nice formation that allows them to charge out of deep strike. It is an option that has to be taken in consideration

I'm a sucker for good fluff, so I prefer to bring Honour Guard only if I'm using a Chapter Master.

The advantage to Vanguard Veterans is their ability to take Jump Packs, which is great for me, as a Raven Guard player, so I like taking a squad of five with Power Swords and Lightning Claws on the Sergeant, running with Shadow-Captain Korvydae for that sweet Hit-and-Run.

Traditio wrote:

Nevelon wrote:Not going to argue that they are a deal for 25ppm. But they are also footslogging at that price. So you options are either a drop pod, so you eat a turn of shooting, or an expensive LR. Both are going to boost the effective price to get the same number of guys into CC. VV are more independent, and can work with JPs to good effect. HG die just like tacs to AP2, while the VVs can take SSs for an invuln.

There are pros and cons to both. Each are better vs. certain targets, or weaker vs. different thing. I’d not write off either of them as inferior.

Rhino?

You are just going to be picking bits of it off your armor as you climb out of the rubble that it used to be first turn. If you opponent has any sense of target priority, it’s going to be popped ASAP. Which is why for HG (and other high-threat units like sternguard) I just go straight to pods. If you are only going to get one turn of movement before you are forced to disembark, might as well make it exactly where you need to be.

There are times where it can be more useful to start on the table in a metal box, but you do need to be a little more careful.

The only time I'd take Rhinos over Pods is against Necrons, but then you're weak against other lists because they won't have issues killing Rhinos, forcing you to walk. It is a vicious circle.

Honour Guard can be viable if you make objective placement part of your overall strategy. If you do your best to cluster objectives as closely as possible, you don't have to move as far, and you have a geographic region you know that your opponent must move to in order to win the game.

In that situation you pod Honour Guard into the centre of a triangle of objectives. 3 objectives within 6", basically. At that proximity, your opponent either concedes the control of the objectives to you, or must move within their limited threat range. Honour Guard are useful in that regard, being better able to soak small arms, and hopefully able to rely on cover for the big-guns.

That said, VV without JP are silly, so you need to factor that in as an effective requirement.

I didn't even realize that people bought Vanguard without Jump Packs. It might as well be required in their profile, as otherwise, why NOT use Honour Guard?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I didn't even realize that people bought Vanguard without Jump Packs. It might as well be required in their profile, as otherwise, why NOT use Honour Guard?

While I tend to agree, I thought I’d look at them side by side.

HG can’t combat squad. Niche case, but it’s there. Can be relevant for things like the 1st company TF, where a squad of VVs can split out of a pod and have 3 units right there to trigger the formation rules.
On the topic of formations: There are a lot more that use VVs the HGs.
Heroic intervention. How many times you fail a charge roll? VVs have an edge.
Price. While a VV with a power weapon costs a point less then a HG, they can go naked to just spam attacks. Although with 5ppm power weapons, I don’t see this happening often, honestly.
Weapon options. VVs can have a hidden powerfist. HG have the option for one TH, and it needs to be on a guy who must issue challenges. Plus things like the notable SS option for the vets, and even things as simple as meltabombs.

Combat Squad is a ridiculously niche rule that you occasionally use. It is NEVER coming into play with Vanguard, so I would not even treat it as though it were an advantage for Vanguard.

Heroic Intervention is another advantage for Vanguard, but when you're not taking Jump Packs you're taking a Pod. That means you're NOT failing a charge.

The Hidden Power Fist is definitely an advantage. No argument there.

There's just no point in not using Jump Packs. It MAKES Vanguard function.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I didn't even realize that people bought Vanguard without Jump Packs. It might as well be required in their profile, as otherwise, why NOT use Honour Guard?

I built my Honour Guard so they can also function as Vanguard Veterans. I am bringing a 1st Compant Task Force, they are Vanguard Veterans. If I am using a CAD, they are Honour Guard. In either case, Pedro Kantor and another Character or two ride along with them in a Drop Pod.

HG can't take power fists. HG can't take storm sheilds. HG can't take jetpacks. This is why I preffer VV. If a LSS could carry marines...now...HG might actually be able to use their points efficiency to their advantage - since they can't get affordable transport they are pretty unusable.

Drop Pods exist. Besides, what are you sending Vanguard after that they need Storm Shields to not get utterly wrecked from that they're actually winning against?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Drop Pods exist. Besides, what are you sending Vanguard after that they need Storm Shields to not get utterly wrecked from that they're actually winning against?

Riptides.