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Lets say hypothetically that your codex for your army is $100, because it contains 2 armies. The book is also hardcover and filled with 236 pages of fluff (202 pages) and pictures and the other army (34 pages) but only 45 pages belongs to your army.

Would it be acceptable to purchase the book with the intent to never remove the shrink wrap so you own the right to play the army but when you or your opponent needs to refer to the rules of your army you present to them a print out copy of the 45 pages of rules for your army specifically. You are not infringing on copy rigght because you are not selling the rules but are using it for your own personal use. It is being kept in pristine unopened conditions in order to return or resell at near retail prices.

Would that be acceptable at ITC RTT events?

Any tournament that requires me to own an $80 supplement in order to use a single page of of rules is a tournament that isn't worth going to.

I always just get the pages I need and skip the book if it isn't the main dex. I can't think of any army that is like this however. All the factions have their own codex.

Isn't the point of requiring physical codexes to prevent people using altered print outs?

If i bad the money, i would buy 2 codecies when a new one is released, one collectors (to not be opened) and one standard

 Scott-S6 wrote:
Isn't the point of requiring physical codexes to prevent people using altered print outs?

Its hard to enforce that rule when some rules sources are digital only like Inquisition or Sisters

 CrownAxe wrote:

 Scott-S6 wrote:
Isn't the point of requiring physical codexes to prevent people using altered print outs?

Its hard to enforce that rule when some rules sources are digital only like Inquisition or Sisters

That idea went out the window with the auto-updating digital formats.

 Scott-S6 wrote:
Isn't the point of requiring physical codexes to prevent people using altered print outs?

Yeah there really is no way around that. Its just so ridiculous that someone is wanting to win so bad they photoshop the words in the rules to cheat. I GUESS It has happened and people are weary of it to warrant suspicion.

Anyways the book is Imperial Armor: Siege of Vraks. It has 2 armies in it. Death Korps of Krieg vs Renegade and Heretics. It is 281 pages long. Fluff and pictures and scenarios fills up 202 pages. DKoK is 36 pages and RH is 45 pages. A normal codex is usually $50. This book is roughly $100 after shipping and taxes from the UK to USA.

I went to adepticon to try and play and thought I could purchase a discounted copy. Wrong. It was still $100 being sold by a bunch of guys wearing the GW uniforms. I have had a bad experience and will never give them my money ever again.

 carldooley wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

 Scott-S6 wrote:
Isn't the point of requiring physical codexes to prevent people using altered print outs?

Its hard to enforce that rule when some rules sources are digital only like Inquisition or Sisters

That idea went out the window with the auto-updating digital formats.

Updates to digital codexes without a corresponding errata for physical is a whole other set of problems...

I have IA12 and IA13 for my CSM, but I just made copies of the 8 or so pages I use.

I'm not carrying almost 350 dollars worth of books into a gamestore. Especially when 200 dollars of books can only be replaced if I order them overseas if something happens.

Not saying "Oh someone will steal it" or something, but accidents happen, sometimes someone's not paying attention and someone's Codex or Rulebook takes a swim in Soft Drink.

And I'd much rather have to replace a 50 dollar codex with 2 bucks of printer paper in the back for the FW stuff I use, something that, while I would be upset could be fixed within the afternoon, than replace a codex and two FW books, which could take up to two weeks for the new stuff to arrive.

I've lost a BRB that way. Because no matter how hard you try, Accidents still happen and you can't control everyone's actions around you. But I also don't play tournaments, so YMMV.

Grief wrote:

 Scott-S6 wrote:
Isn't the point of requiring physical codexes to prevent people using altered print outs?

Yeah there really is no way around that. Its just so ridiculous that someone is wanting to win so bad they photoshop the words in the rules to cheat. I GUESS It has happened and people are weary of it to warrant suspicion.

Anyways the book is Imperial Armor: Siege of Vraks. It has 2 armies in it. Death Korps of Krieg vs Renegade and Heretics. It is 281 pages long. Fluff and pictures and scenarios fills up 202 pages. DKoK is 36 pages and RH is 45 pages. A normal codex is usually $50. This book is roughly $100 after shipping and taxes from the UK to USA.

I went to adepticon to try and play and thought I could purchase a discounted copy. Wrong. It was still $100 being sold by a bunch of guys wearing the GW uniforms. I have had a bad experience and will never give them my money ever again.

So, you pirated the rules for a FW book, but you want to buy the book so you can "prove" you have a copy, but you intend to keep it unopened/NIP so that at some point in the near future you can return it for your money back? Did I get that right?

Most return policy is 30 days.

I intend to keep the book past 30 days. Maybe 3 months from now I sell it on ebay and recoup as much value as I can since it will be pristine un opened.

There is so much uncertainty with GW and Forge World I do not Trust.

So what's the benefit in buying it at all when all you're going to do with it is sell it in its original, unopened packaging (likely for a loss)?

Because all the freakin places I go and play, people ask to see my codex n I show them a pdf or a print copy and they call a TO or store owner and they kick me out for not having or OWNING the RIGHTS (intellectual property of GW and Forge World) to play my army.

I couldn't play at the recent Adepticon. At another prior tournament I got disqualified 3 games in when a person was so hardcore about winning called a judge TO over and told him I had no book but a pdf on a laptop so they disqualified me and told me to leave. I will nk longer go to that store.

I highly doubt they're going to accept you having a shrink wrapped copy of the book with print outs. Take the shrink wrap off, tell them you photocopied the relevant pages, and sure because then they can actually look at the rules in the book itself if they have questions. In short, I don't think it's going to help you.

That being said, it sounds like you're put off from the game in general because people are expecting you to buy the rules and you find that unreasonable. If you're going to play in tournaments or more official places you're going to need to conform to expectations or stop going. You should be looking for a friendly local gaming group instead, as they are the ones who will not care whether you have the book itself or not.

Grief wrote:
Because all the freakin places I go and play, people ask to see my codex n I show them a pdf or a print copy and they call a TO or store owner and they kick me out for not having or OWNING the RIGHTS (intellectual property of GW and Forge World) to play my army.

I couldn't play at the recent Adepticon. At another prior tournament I got disqualified 3 games in when a person was so hardcore about winning called a judge TO over and told him I had no book but a pdf on a laptop so they disqualified me and told me to leave. I will no longer go to that store.

I can see exactly what they mean. What you're suggesting is like owning a physical copy of a PC game and then arguing that it's OK for you to use a pirated copy. The only exception to this scenario is if you own an electronic copy legitimately bought from GW or other authorized retailer, but that would defeat the whole purpose of this scenario because you'd have a legitimate copy you could refer to on your electronic device and there'd be no need for you to buy a physical copy. I'd also so that if you got the rules for your army anywhere other than from your own codex, whether it be a photocopy from online or a photocopy/hand-written copy taken from somebody else's codex, then I'd say you're probably breaking the law.

Especially for the Competitive Scene, there is no way around this: You must own and use a legitimate copy of the relevant codex (Physical Copy or Electronic Copy).


Honestly though, I reckon troa is right - everything I've written in this post is in agreement with their first statement. I also agree with troa in the sense that it sounds like you're better suited to casual games and your FLGS and/or at other places with your close mates who play.

You guys are right. There is no way around this. every where I go. There will be people who are absolute sticklers because they bought their books. They feel that if they had to pay their dues to earn the right to play then so should I must pay what they did. If your book only cost $50 then go cry a me a river. But if your book cost $83 and approximately another $20 for shipping from UK and half of the book is an entirely different army and Is never on sale for half price used then I will respect you and your complaint in me not having the physcial rule book and not participate or play with you. I give up.

Does not mean I will cave in and give them my money at this very moment. I dont support their clever sales schemes and the way go about doing their business.

If you dislike the company that much, your best route is to stop supporting it by ceasing purchases of new materials and likely by selling off all old materials(leaving the game behind). Your posts have a tone of a extreme distaste for GW, FW, and the gaming community as a whole. That being said, do what you want with your money.

I havent seen this one friend of mine from highschool. We use to play wh40k. We graduated from college and went to different states. We hung out every year or so but life happends and we all drift apart. He is busy with his family as we are in our 30s. I happened to be in his state and I called him up. He invited me over the summer 2015 and we finally played a game and caught up on old times.

It was really fun. I was hooked again. I cane back home. Started trading and collecting for my army and painting. I been visiting so many of the Gaming stores that has wh40k communities in my state.

Just when I got traction I am hit with the same reasons why i left in the first place.

Grief - FW isnt a "clever sales scheme" - its just an even more specialist (and expensive) part of an expensive hobby.

You dont have the right to require discount or sales; as they sell direct its not like the usual retial vs internet vs wholesale markup situaiton. Essentially there IS no markup...

No no not that.

when I said scheme i meant similar tactics used by College text Book wriiters, write a big novel and include 40 pages of games rules for people who want to reinact the scenarios in the novel. Much like how College text books are full of useles information but the summary is what is important and has the key info for exams.

Print it only on hard cover. College text books removed the cover and put 3 binder holes in and made it impossible to resell.

The community mades the rules to uphold that the codex and books are badges to play the army. The University professors tell you they are using said book to test on and do homwork. They test only a few chapters and a few work pages You want to earn credit for homework and study the exam right?

Online dataslates that cost money? Welcome to Mcgraw Hill/ My math Lab online homework subscriptions.

And the right to a discount? what are you talking about? You think I believe I was entitled to a discount?

I went to adepticon and tried to buy it from GW their. They told me its $100. I asked them why is it $100 if the fw website said 59 brit pounds or $83. He said because of shipping. I said, what shipping? its right here in front of me. He hesitates and ask his manager and the manager said it was the cost to being it here to adepticon.

I dont want to deal with GW or FW.

Also I really just wanted a used and opened copy much like how so many of the used codexes on ebay are $30-40. Is that an right to a discount?

another question. Why is this outdated volume $193?

http://m.ebay.com/itm/WARHAMMER-40000-IMPERIAL-ARMOUR-07-THE-SIEGE-OF-VRAKS-PART-THREE-30-/351696286654?nav=SEARCH

Whag could possibly make this old and out dated version of Siege of Vraks $200?

There's always someone that will pay over the odds for something because it's out of print.

Buying the rules for your army is just part of playing the game if you're not playing with friends. Plenty of people have seen doctored print outs and everyone has seen the guy with no rules who "remembers them perfectly".

Honestly Grief, I firmly believe you are either trolling, or just being overly obstinate with your vendetta against the 'big bad TO's.'
First off, If you expect to go to any competitive scene and play, you will need a legal copy of the rules. This is true for any game. Some games offer their rules for free. Some don't. Just because the guy down the street is giving away free apples, doesn't mean the guy selling Oranges has to give them to you. The warhammer hobby requires you to buy the rules for your army. That's an established fact; has been for years. Believing otherwise is naive, or foolish.
Second, you come across as an extremely unpleasant person. You have a problem, but it's everyone elses fault, not yours! You don't take any real ownership or responsibillity of the issues you bring up
Third, it is common practice to charge for convenience. My local bakery sells doughnuts 12 for $6. At the Gas station/convenience store they are $1.50 for 1.
Why is that? Because they are an evil money-hoarding toy soldier company?
No, it's because it is convenient and the common individual understands that extra effort went into making this item more available for them. So when the GW staff import a book from the U.K. to sell at a U.S. tournament, yes, they will be a higher price. No, it is not to scam you out of your monies with college textbook professor schema - it is because their costs on that item went up as well, and now they must charge more to make even a little profit.
I mean no offence by anything i have said here, but If someone asked me whether I would play a game of 40k with you based on your recent posts, I might say no. And I do so love a good dash of dicing.

Grief wrote:

another question. Why is this outdated volume $193?

http://m.ebay.com/itm/WARHAMMER-40000-IMPERIAL-ARMOUR-07-THE-SIEGE-OF-VRAKS-PART-THREE-30-/351696286654?nav=SEARCH

Whag could possibly make this old and out dated version of Siege of Vraks $200?

Because the guy who put up that auction decided to set its price at $200.

By the fact that its still on ebay means no one is paying for it at $200. So no it's not worth $200.

If someone can produce an official rule source, I'm good. I don't care whether you legally purchased the rules or got them through less legal routes.
The hobby is expensive as is and I won't exclude people from it just because they don't feel like coughing up an extra $100 to play the army they want to play.

Models take priority over buying rules imho because you can playing without having bought the rules easily, but it's a lot harder to play with rules if you don't have models.

You should try reading it!

Siege of Vraks is an amazing book that details the years in which the Death Korps wear down the heretics that have seized the storehouse at Vraks. With every success they have the renegades push back harder and sink ever lower into corruption.

Its pricey, its bulky, but after reading it I have never felt bad about the price of my purchase, its an excellent quality book with a great story in it and quality rules.

I'm sorry to say that the college textbook example doesn't hold any water. Any book used in any course has to be held by the college's library. Unfortunately, it is a well known fact - and odds are that you won't be the one to get to it. So Meh.
OTOH, the library analogy can bore some unexpected fruit. I have donated more than a couple gaming books to my local library; when I stopped playing D&D I donated a bunch of books to them, and I'm tickled pink to see that they occasionally get used. (I was less amused when they were stolen and the thief tried to sell them to a hobby shop run by a friend that I was in at the time. . .) The point being, check out the library's catalog. What is within it may surprise you.

The scenario outlined by the OP just seems strange and will get people digging into it wondering what is the "real" reason you are doing this.
I like to follow "love everyone, trust no-one" as a line of reasoning: you deserve being treated well but I like objective evidence over taking your word for it.

I have seen someone actually "print-out" rules that were different from the rule book so I am not much of a fan of the printed codex.
I do make use of a "cheat sheet" that lists relevant rules and references the page numbers, people seem to like those.

A "Pristine Unopened Codex" is rather... unusual and will just beg for a bunch of questions on why and where did you get your printed stuff then?

 Talizvar wrote:
I like to follow "love everyone, trust no-one" as a line of reasoning

And I generally go by Reagan's 'Trust but Verify', which in this example, generally requires opened books.

This all sounds super suspect. Grief, I'm sorry but casual game or not, I wouldn't play you. Having a shrink wrapped codex with you and then handing me some printed out pages when i ask to see a rule sounds super sketchy to me.

I don't mind battlescribe list print outs because I have it in good faith that my opponent has his codex with him if I question battlescribe, but if you just had battlescribe and no codex, I'd still give you the same sketchy look.

As a collector of weird and out of print things, I actually get where he comes from. I have a ton of legos that I bought a long time ago that are still in it's original packaging, none of which I have any intent of selling in the foreseeable future or opening. It's part of a collector's itch that you need to scratch sometimes.

My advice to you is, understand that if you want people to accept this part of you, you will need to make some concessions to others. In casual games I would be ok if you brought print outs but in an official tournament, see if you can find a scrapped up second hand copy (which should be much cheaper, GW products never appreciate in value even in pristine condition, let alone busted up) or borrow a copy from a friend to make the photocopies (the latter of which might seem impossible but if you're in a place that allows FW stuff, generally there will be someone who owns the book if you ask around). Tournaments require cross-checking and while you can ask them for a little understanding, it would effectively be them making an exception for you. I'd rather do the opposite and make an exception for them, it's a good will thing.