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Tournament results show IG showing exceedingly poorly, but not at the absolute bottom, they could potentially be considered the "best of the worst". They are not competitive and can only hold their own against older armies.

The army has several issues.

First, the core rules really are against them. Non skimmer vehicles have major problems and thats the bread and butter of the army. IG have no MC or Deathstar units, and the army as a whole has mobility issues. Likewise' scale issues are a problem, and relatively common units can withstand literally hundreds of models worth of Lasgun fire and still not die. Firepower in other armies has exploded, and there are generalist armies that can handily outshoot the shooting oriented IG. Then if course IG dont have the insane formations and freebies of other armies. Most fundamentally, the army has extremely poor internal balance and is seemingly designes around a 5E paradigm despite having been released weeks before 7th.

Yeah, lasguns are pretty useless, and with units like TWC's or Wraiths that can take upwards of a thousand lasgun shots to bring down (literally), or nearly thirty just to kill a single Necron Warrior, the game has outscaled the relevancy of such weapons.

Blasts just arent what they used to be. Against MC's, thy can only ever do 1 wound, and the MC's often still get their saves, likewise most death star units, while cover and invul saves are increasingly common for other units that mitigate blast weapon power. Blasts against vehicles are also leas useful in the same manner as things like Vanquisher cannons because multishot high ROF weapons and weapons that ignore AV are more effecrive tank killers through HP stripping.

RoF beats blasts any day of the week.

Tac marines in rhinos have a hars time because of the vehicle rules not allowing assaults out of stationary transports. It used to be one of the most effecrice anti IG sm builds since it was competing on a pretty godd attrition level with the IG.

That said, SM's as a whole really have no issues dealing with IG as an army with the tools at their disposal, psykers or no.

Traditio wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Tac marines in rhinos have a hars time because of the vehicle rules not allowing assaults out of stationary transports. It used to be one of the most effecrice anti IG sm builds since it was competing on a pretty godd attrition level with the IG.

That said, SM's as a whole really have no issues dealing with IG as an army with the tools at their disposal, psykers or no.

Only if you take into account drop pods and thunderfire cannons. If my list doesn't have those things, I lose against IG.

psyker support, biker units, centurions, storm ravens, any number of absurd formations/detachment bonuses, etc. IG generally have poor answers to any of these.

TFC's and Drop Pods are just the EZ-Mode I Win buttons against IG, they're not mandatory at all. If you auto-lose to IG without them, I'm not sure what to say.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Now I could be wrong, so some one correct me and forgive my folly.

But IG are meant to be the gun line army that runs from cover to cover, but the problem is tau does it better, and the thing that was supposed to set them apart was their mech devision which again with tau having so much more powerful shooting troops, what's the point.

Iirc at one point when flyers first came into the game, Valkyries were super op

It was the Vendetta, and that was mostly when they were Fast Skimmers (when they could Scout up, disgorge melta troops within 6" double pen range turn 1 and then immediately provide triple lascannon fire support, all on turn 1). The normal Valkyrie sadly has never been terribly impressive.

Along those lines, a simple army wide mechanic replenishment could work, any time a unit dies, roll a D6, in a 6 return it to play the next turn arriving automatically from reserves

That said, most of the stuff I'd really like to see is here
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/60/651867.page#7901271

 generalchaos34 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Along those lines, a simple army wide mechanic replenishment could work, any time a unit dies, roll a D6, in a 6 return it to play the next turn arriving automatically from reserves

That said, most of the stuff I'd really like to see is here
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/60/651867.page#7901271

I like what you did there with a bunch of the things, but I do have one question, why the hate on Grenade launchers? Maybe im weird but thats always my go to special if I need to maximize point costs and running a lot of infantry, especially with emperors shield. I find that a S6 hit at range can potentially wound MCs or light vehicles (as opposed to not wounding them at all) or still do a small blast over the more limited utility of a flamer, which excels at its job, but you obviously need to be right in the enemies face and at point my squad will be dead. I also run my platoons MSU with krak grenades so I can vehicle and MC hunt in a pinch.

I tried so hard to like Grenade Launchers, I really did, and I ran them on my platoon infantry all through 5th, and still do sometimes. The problem is that the GL really is a piddly weapon that largely just works out to be a slightly beefier lasgun for a single dude, and doesn't enhance the capabilities of the unit all *that* much or let them do much that they couldn't do before aside from a small chance to hurt light vehicles. 5 units of guardsmen with a Plasma Gun are overall a much more flexible and capable group than 6 units with Grenade Launchers for the same cost even with fewer dudes, they can successfully engage a much wider array of targets with a much greater success rate due to getting potentially twice as many shots, ignoring armor altogether, and having higher Strength.

Dantes_Baals wrote:


Okay, so a regular LRBTS rear AV is 10. Does it matter 10 or 11 if you never expose it to the opponent?

The big thing is assaults. Rear AV10 is effectively auto-killed by almost any close combat.

I'm really not a fan of just free stuff. Chimeras need a points drop, but the core vehicle rules really are the biggest issue. Get them back to 55pts with a 5E style vehicle kill system and theyll be golden.

 Fido198674 wrote:
IG will get their codex update in time and those same players will whine about how you "just bought them to play because they are new and OP"

This assumes the next IG codex update actually does anything for them. The last codex didn't really fix anything with the army, the next one might not either

Non skimmer vehicles were only ever really strong and prevalent in one edition ever, 5th. Thats probably not a concern of the rules team given how consistently they make Skimmers and MC's amazing.

I think making HWT's full bore T7 artillery is a wee bit much.

That said, the concept of something similar has been discussed before. If we made them a unique gunteam type unit that more accurately reflected how they actually operate, we could make them more functional. It could be something like "if this unit has not moved this turn, it gains +2 Toughness and a 4+ cover save". This would help represent gun shields and entrenchments set up with the heavy weapons, while when moving they're just normal dudes. T5 W2 4+cover gun teams would have a whole lot more utility without being a somewhat overblown T7.

Guys, ignore Typically-Wardian, pretty much everything he's ever posted has been curiously rabidly anti-IG and is a known troll .

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
I think making HWT's full bore T7 artillery is a wee bit much.

That said, the concept of something similar has been discussed before. If we made them a unique gunteam type unit that more accurately reflected how they actually operate, we could make them more functional. It could be something like "if this unit has not moved this turn, it gains +2 Toughness and a 4+ cover save". This would help represent gun shields and entrenchments set up with the heavy weapons, while when moving they're just normal dudes. T5 W2 4+cover gun teams would have a whole lot more utility without being a somewhat overblown T7.

What is with people and Cover Saves?

Cover Saves are useless this edition against any of the 'top tier' armies--and many of the 'bottom tier' armies have ways to deal with Cover Saves just as effectively.

Either it needs to be something that actually WORKS(i.e. Artillery) to prevent the HW teams from being one-shotted from range but still making them vulnerable to CC units; or HW point costs need to drop like rocks tied to anvils tied to a safe for Guard Infantry Squads and Guard Heavy Weapon Squads(note: not Veterans. The price is just about right for them).

If the concerns are that "T7 is too much for just a couple of guys with a tripod mounted gun and makes no sense for a Missile Launcher or Mortar Team!" or whatever garbage; then make MLs and Mortars into Special Weapons instead of Heavy Weapons; or attach a special rule of "Emplaced Position" to the tripod mounted weapons.

Cover is not universally ignored. I still usually get to take cover saves in most games, and likewise do my opponents. It's not as useful as it once was, I won't argue that, but it's not useless at all. If we just balanced everything around Eldar, Tau, and Librarian Conclave SM's, then we'd have to make IG equally absurd and that's not really a good solution. Cover is still useful, particularly in games against non-cheese'd out armies or against armies like Necrons, non-Psyker supported SM armies, and all the other armies that IG are roughly on par with but against which HWT's are garbage (e.g. GK's, Dark Eldar, Orks, CSM's, SoB's, etc). It would certainly give greater flexibility in deployment (as most HWT's are usually stuck trying to deploy in useful terrain currently), and give some additional protection against spammed AP4/5 shots.

As for Toughness, heavy weapons units are not on the scale of T7 artillery and shouldn't be treated as such. They're infantry with infantry carried weapons, not towed or self propelled artillery the way something like a Thudd Gun or Thunderfire Cannon is. A toned down version to T5 as I suggested might be reasonable both in gameplay and fluff terms, and nobody wants to hear the bemoaning that Sabre platforms brought at the beginning of 6th.

Sure, Orks have some Ignores Cover stuff. Every army does. That doesn't mean cover is useless just because sometimes you won't get to take it, same with armor. It doesn't mean that the vast majority of shooting ignores cover. Cover is still useful. If we're going to balance everything around "the only saves that exist are invul saves", well, we're going to run into problems.

As for Ork Mek Gunz, those are huge, significantly larger and more substantial than IG heavy weapons.

BA infantry are largely identical to SA and Vanilla infantry, they arent any less hard to kill. If volume of fire isnt doing it against SW's or Ultras, why would it do so against BA's?

The DKoK bit about Commissars was actually first in IA5. Im not sure if it is in the newest Vraks book since I do not have it on hand, but its not just from BL.

I do also recall a blurb from one of the 3e/4e books (eye of terror maybe?) About a Commissar being attaches to a cadian regiment and being very impressed by them during training. I'll have to look for it later.

Commissars also have roles beyond just shooting people for indiscipline, thats a relatively minor duty. They also act as tactical advisors, fill in for commands if officers arent present (dead/wounded/nobody experienced enough to lead an attack, etc), interface with ither regiments of vastly different cultural backgrounds and other elements of the Imperium such as the Inquisition or Administratum, etc. There's all sorts of reasons for Commissars to be attached to units which otherwise have excellent morale and discipline, for example like Storm Tropper/Scion units.

Nobody knows why they made any of the changes with the last codex, aside from the Russ recostings and some cheaper Vet doctrines, pretty much all of them were pointless, a wrong fix, or a direct nerf, while they left most of the crap units to remain crap.

I think a lot of the reason that many of the more "fantasy-ish" units (like Ratlings, Ogryn, Rough Riders) get ignored is because their rules have been garbage...forever.

Granted there is the obvious temptation by a lot of players to ignore them as being somewhat out of place in many IG armies, but when their rules have been awful in literally every edition the game has ever had, nobody is ever going to get very attached to them in the first place, much like Vespids. At least coming from the post 2E era, I don't think Ratlings, Ogryns or Rough Riders have ever had particularly functional rules and stats, so it's no surprise that nobody cares about them.

Also their models have largely either been garbage (RR's barring DKoK Death Riders, current & 2E Ogryns), or absurdly expensive (DKoK Death Riders, metal Ogryns).

 Kanluwen wrote:

You do understand that "not taking them" doesn't mean that it still isn't a slot wasted on a dumpster fire of a unit that could be replaced by something that isn't just "Lolz look--it's just like the Empire in WHFB was!"?

Their existence isn't wasting anything nor preventing anything else from being added. Rough Riders certainly didn't prevent the inclusion of the Valkyrie, Vendettta, Devil Dog, or Bane Wolf to the FA slots for example.

With both Ratlings and Rough Riders just continually being copy/pasted from edition to edition to edition GW won't ever sit their designers down and say "Come up with something to replace this".

You're assuming this is how GW works, we've clearly seen they largely don't really care what currently exists and just toss in whatever Marketing tells them to. That's how we got Centurions over Terminators, and Wraithknights over Wraithlords. If they want something similar but "better", they'll just add it on top

They've also re-worked units in their entirety before without replacing them entirely. DE Mandrakes, Talos, and Grotesques for example, they didn't need to go away for GW to rework their entire concept (even if they still ended up being garbage afterwards )

 aka_mythos wrote:

 vostroyan second born wrote:
Yes the am elite choises are a joke as well as the fast attack options.

It's unfortunately the GW rule that Marine must always be better, that limits IG. Where IG elites end up being about a single extreme which makes them so narrowly beneficial they're mostly overpriced. I like Ratlings and I think they're fairly priced. They've never won me any games but what IG unit consistently does?

Ratlings dont really pack enough oomf for for any meaningful role anymore, and equivalents from other armies are just plain better. Eldar Rangers for example have the exact same weapon and "shoot+run" rules, but have better stats, get Shrouded instead of Stealth, are ObSec Troops, have access to better support, and cost about the same.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 G00fySmiley wrote:
Honestly I see IG and their tanks as the orks or tyranids of humanity. All this talk about making them tougher and more savable... most of their stuff is over costed for what they get, but an "elite" IG makes very little sense to me, they should have a high model count and take large amounts of casualties to get the job done. some of the stuff floated here like making heavy weapons teams t7 with a 3+ cover... seriously for the points that is absurd. What makes HWT good is that you can take a gak ton of them, they should be about 1/2 the points cost so you get a ton of shots and a ton of models. The exemptions are leman russ tanks which should be pretty beefy per the fluff and are the oen thing that is not just thrown away in droves to get something done.

eh, there are some well grounded "elite-ish" IG forces. Things like a DKoK Assault Brigade or Stormtrooper company consisting of well equipped and elite mechanized forces (though obviously not on par with Space Marines).

Thudd guns used to be a relatively mainstream imperial unit with a metal kit...alas now its FW while GW brought it back for SM's as the Thunderfire Cannon.

TIL the single most "40k" character in the entire IG faction, who's been there since the very first IG codex, is a joke that should just be thrown out because it's not in one of the plastic Cadian infantry boxes...

Where did such raw hatred for Yarrick materialize from, did he run over your dog or something? I'm like...really amused here, I've never seen someone so hot and bothered over the mere existence of Commissar Yarrick before. I don't think I've ever seen anyone hate on Yarrick before in any way ever.

I'm getting popcorn.

EDIT: Also, I've never seen someone just grab Yarrick and run him as their first IG command unit, hell I almost never see him period. Where are all these people starting and then failing with Yarrick?

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
So what do you think the chances are that they'll retcon the fluff to make it so all the famous regiments actually looked like Cadians all along except maybe with different color schemes?

Or maybe they can create a new regiment that no one's ever heard of or cares about. And then they can give that new regiment their own supplement with formations and relics and the works. They could be the Crimson Guard. Or something like that.

It still blows my mind how intentionally they're avoiding the license to print money that Legion books would be for utterly pointless stuff like the Crimson Slaughter & Black Legion books...

The Cadian kits are passable....onky if you replace the heads. The heads are absurd and they all have expressions on their faces that look like theyre having major issues with constipation, not to mention weirdly big heads.

With respirator or 3rd party heads, they arent ao bad. That said, the old Steel Legion and Vostroyans I think look better.

 Selym wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
The Cadian kits are passable....onky if you replace the heads. The heads are absurd and they all have expressions on their faces that look like theyre having major issues with constipation, not to mention weirdly big heads.

With respirator or 3rd party heads, they arent ao bad. That said, the old Steel Legion and Vostroyans I think look better.

Don not get me started :(

These.

Ha, those were my submission to the liberty and union league that Wargames Factory ran...8 or 9 years ago

Ive got like 8 boxes that Ive never had time to assemble and paint...