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Having been thoroughly convinced by my dismal performance the last tournament, I'm a bit concerned that multiple ships (short of a full swarm) with just two attack dice is going to be enough to take down some of the biggest ships and tougher lists -- this week's winner ran Ghost (chopper) with a pair of B-wings (and I also had a fair amount of trouble against a B-wing/crow list).

So I'm dropping some of my playing around/ experimental ideas, and looking for more solid lists and builds.

At the risk of going too far in the other direction, I'm considering investing in the Punisher for a list like this:
==================
Black Force Eight
==================

100 points

The Inquisitor (29)
TIE Advanced Prototype (25), Push the Limit (3), TIE/v1 (1)

Darth Vader (34)
TIE Advanced (29), TIE/x1 (0), Adaptability (0), Engine Upgrade (4), Advanced Targeting Computer (5)

“Redline” (37)
TIE Punisher (27), Electronic Baffle (1), Extra Munitions (2), Plasma Torpedoes (3), Cluster Missiles (4), Guidance Chips (0)

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This feels like it would have enough firepower for large ships and multiple b-wing opponents. And hopefully Vader and the Inquisitor with be enough to handle enemy aces...

Thoughts? Is investing in the Punisher a good idea? Or am I better of going with builds based around the ships I currently have (2 TIE, 3 TIE-Fo, 2 TIE Advanced, TAP, Defender, and Phantom)? Or perhaps going with another TAP?

I think you've been on the right track with the Aces builds you've been posting;
Vader, Quis, and Soontir is a strong build if flown well.

As for your Redline build, I'd drop the electronic baffle to give the Inquisitor the Mk2 Engine; he'll be picking up stress with PTL, so opening up 4x maneuvers to clear stress will help out a lot.

I wouldn't bother with both the Plasma Torpedo and the Cluster Missles (Clusters are still a bit mehh as Chimps is once per turn), I'm leaning towards Concussion Missles as the best option, they provide a minimum of 2 hits with Chips, Plasma can do more but with a higher variance.

 House Griffith wrote:
I think you've been on the right track with the Aces builds you've been posting;
Vader, Quis, and Soontir is a strong build if flown well.

Yeah, it's that "if flown well" part that's the problem. Maybe I just need to get over my fears and accept that sometimes an interceptor is just going to die in one shot/round (like I did to the Royal Guard TIE in a Whisper/Turr Phennir list that came back at me a week after I used it).

As for your Redline build, I'd drop the electronic baffle to give the Inquisitor the Mk2 Engine; he'll be picking up stress with PTL, so opening up 4x maneuvers to clear stress will help out a lot.

Heh, you and one of the other posters here (scootypuff?) seem to have a difference of opinion on that one. I posted something like that and was told it was a waste because the TAP already has plenty of green on the dial.

The notion of pulling a k-turn with Redline and not being stressed (so able to shoot missiles maybe once or twice per game) seemed appealing... but I'll keep testing and playing with lists until I find something I'm happy with, I guess

Yeah, it's that "if flown well" part that's the problem. Maybe I just need to get over my fears and accept that sometimes an interceptor is just going to die in one shot/round (like I did to the Royal Guard TIE in a Whisper/Turr Phennir list that came back at me a week after I used it).

Yeah, you can't give up on stuff because bad things happen.
I was playing a friend of mine in a tourney and shot at his Soontir Fel with my Vader at Range 3, through an asteroid, with his stealth device still active. That's 6x green dice for him. I rolled three hits, he rolled 6x blanks. Sometimes dice will fail you hard.

As for the Mk2 engine, it's more like I'd rather have a Mk2 engine on my Quis than Baffles on my Redline. I think there's merit to adding 4 green maneuvers to the TAP dial for 1 point, especially with PTL on board. As with a lot of things with this game, opinions will differ.

Or drop both and take a bid.

Redline has use for the cluster missiles because he gets rerolls from FCS ( the system he should be taking . Redline himself usually doesn't last a whole game, but if he can pour on some serious damage and cause distractions, he is best served 4-5 damage (plasma torps and then cluster missiles) it works really well against big ships and even smaller more elusive ships take damage as well. I keep him as cheap as possible and then have him pick a juicy target, when everyone turns to pick on him, your other ships get into position and pounce.

Redline FCS Plasma Cluster extra munitions if you want to be cheeky 36-38 pts

A friend of mine has been taking a double tie punisher list to local games (run with various 3rd ship). The one he is really fond of is the pilot who can throw bombs out front, coupled with cluster mines (can't remember/find his name). He uses asteroids to create a channel, draws the enemy towards him, then throws the cluster mines and barrel rolls out the way, cackling as his opponent is forced through the mines. It's been pretty effective; destroyed a Howlrunner tie swarm, a Dash and crippled a Falcon on different occassions.

 Stormonu wrote:
A friend of mine has been taking a double tie punisher list to local games (run with various 3rd ship). The one he is really fond of is the pilot who can throw bombs out front, coupled with cluster mines (can't remember/find his name). He uses asteroids to create a channel, draws the enemy towards him, then throws the cluster mines and barrel rolls out the way, cackling as his opponent is forced through the mines. It's been pretty effective; destroyed a Howlrunner tie swarm, a Dash and crippled a Falcon on different occassions.

I'd be interested to see the lists this is going against and it's win/loss record. I've never been impressed by cluster mines, and playing against them have had them do little meaningful damage to me.
What's the third ship he uses most consistently?

Win/Loss at the tourney was 3-0-1 (not including "test" games).

I just asked him about the list, this was what he remembered; I'll try and get the complete list tomorrow.

Deathrain
- Autothrusters
- Extra Munitions
- Cluster Mines
- Ion Torpedoes
- Siesmic Charges
- Cluster Missiles

I seem to remember him at one point taking something that let him take an action before moving so he could drop mines, barrel roll and then manuever out of arc (or possibly ion the target to force them into the mines); if the opponent managed to somehow swing away from the mines he could then drop another sequence and then move away, boxing (with more mines) or herding (with seismic charges/ion) an opponent as he desired.

 Stormonu wrote:
Win/Loss at the tourney was 3-0-1 (not including "test" games).

I just asked him about the list, this was what he remembered; I'll try and get the complete list tomorrow.

Deathrain
- Autothrusters
- Extra Munitions
- Cluster Mines
- Ion Torpedoes
- Siesmic Charges
- Cluster Missiles

I seem to remember him at one point taking something that let him take an action before moving so he could drop mines, barrel roll and then manuever out of arc (or possibly ion the target to force them into the mines); if the opponent managed to somehow swing away from the mines he could then drop another sequence and then move away, boxing (with more mines) or herding (with seismic charges/ion) an opponent as he desired.

With Advanced Sensors (the card allowing action before maneuver), that's a 48-point Deathrain build. That's quite ambitious, and I'm frankly surprised he has such a good record with it.
I would think a Palpaces or J15K list would annihilate this; standing by for what the rest of the list is.

Apostasus wrote:
Heh, you and one of the other posters here (scootypuff?) seem to have a difference of opinion on that one. I posted something like that and was told it was a waste because the TAP already has plenty of green on the dial.

I said to drop a Mk. II engine from Juno's TIE Advanced, not the TAP. I've probably also said to not put it on a normal TIE fighter because it's definitely a waste on those.

However, you shouldn't put the Mk. II on the TAP either because Autothrusters is a much better choice.

It is, but Twin Ion Engines may be better than nothing if not willing to free up the other point.


To be honest, I'd probably use the point to take Veteran Instincts rather than Adaptability on Vader. I get the PS8/PS10 duality being useful but if you're buying Vader you're investing in PS and stopping 1 short of "I go first" seems a waste unless you've got multiple PS8s to shuffle around.


I'll admit I never really saw clusters as that great either. Prox mines seem much better with the extra die and the ability to cause criticals.

 House Griffith wrote:
With Advanced Sensors (the card allowing action before maneuver), that's a 48-point Deathrain build. That's quite ambitious, and I'm frankly surprised he has such a good record with it.
I would think a Palpaces or J15K list would annihilate this; standing by for what the rest of the list is.

Yeah, that's way too many points for a TIE Punisher, especially since it even has torpedoes and missiles.

locarno24 wrote:
It is, but Twin Ion Engines may be better than nothing if not willing to free up the other point.

If someone isn't willing to free up an extra point to give The Inquisitor AT, they aren't doing it right. He needs Autothrusters and considering he should be at range 3 of his target at all times, it's even better.

I like the Original Build.
If I were to tweek it:
Inquisitor doesn't need the TIE Engines, but does want Autothrusters. Vader can get along without Engine Upgrade as well... if you are good at flying him. Vader is such a target in lists like this you can actually get more out of him by spending less on him.

 House Griffith wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:
Win/Loss at the tourney was 3-0-1 (not including "test" games).

I just asked him about the list, this was what he remembered; I'll try and get the complete list tomorrow.

Deathrain
- Autothrusters
- Extra Munitions
- Cluster Mines
- Ion Torpedoes
- Siesmic Charges
- Cluster Missiles

I seem to remember him at one point taking something that let him take an action before moving so he could drop mines, barrel roll and then manuever out of arc (or possibly ion the target to force them into the mines); if the opponent managed to somehow swing away from the mines he could then drop another sequence and then move away, boxing (with more mines) or herding (with seismic charges/ion) an opponent as he desired.

With Advanced Sensors (the card allowing action before maneuver), that's a 48-point Deathrain build. That's quite ambitious, and I'm frankly surprised he has such a good record with it.
I would think a Palpaces or J15K list would annihilate this; standing by for what the rest of the list is.

Sorry for the long delay on this, I was a bit shocked/disappointed to learn the rest of the list was just a loaded-out Redline (2 punishers total - no other ships, final total was 99 points, I believe). Like I said, at our loacal meta, this did surprisingly well and was greatly feared. Can't remember what it lost to, but I think it was a scum y-wing TLT fortress. I do remember it wiped out a Fel build, a poe/falcon build and a tie swarm.

 Stormonu wrote:

 House Griffith wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:
Win/Loss at the tourney was 3-0-1 (not including "test" games).

I just asked him about the list, this was what he remembered; I'll try and get the complete list tomorrow.

Deathrain
- Autothrusters
- Extra Munitions
- Cluster Mines
- Ion Torpedoes
- Siesmic Charges
- Cluster Missiles

I seem to remember him at one point taking something that let him take an action before moving so he could drop mines, barrel roll and then manuever out of arc (or possibly ion the target to force them into the mines); if the opponent managed to somehow swing away from the mines he could then drop another sequence and then move away, boxing (with more mines) or herding (with seismic charges/ion) an opponent as he desired.

With Advanced Sensors (the card allowing action before maneuver), that's a 48-point Deathrain build. That's quite ambitious, and I'm frankly surprised he has such a good record with it.
I would think a Palpaces or J15K list would annihilate this; standing by for what the rest of the list is.

Sorry for the long delay on this, I was a bit shocked/disappointed to learn the rest of the list was just a loaded-out Redline (2 punishers total - no other ships, final total was 99 points, I believe). Like I said, at our loacal meta, this did surprisingly well and was greatly feared. Can't remember what it lost to, but I think it was a scum y-wing TLT fortress. I do remember it wiped out a Fel build, a poe/falcon build and a tie swarm.

Wow, then that makes his Redline a 51 point build. That's insane.
I've seen Redline used to some effect with a FCS and assorted missiles, but even then that was a build in the mid-40's. He must have given Redline ALL THE ORDNANCE.
Impressive that he beat the lists you mentioned with 1-agility ships with only 18hp between them.

 House Griffith wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:

 House Griffith wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:
Win/Loss at the tourney was 3-0-1 (not including "test" games).

I just asked him about the list, this was what he remembered; I'll try and get the complete list tomorrow.

Deathrain
- Autothrusters
- Extra Munitions
- Cluster Mines
- Ion Torpedoes
- Siesmic Charges
- Cluster Missiles

I seem to remember him at one point taking something that let him take an action before moving so he could drop mines, barrel roll and then manuever out of arc (or possibly ion the target to force them into the mines); if the opponent managed to somehow swing away from the mines he could then drop another sequence and then move away, boxing (with more mines) or herding (with seismic charges/ion) an opponent as he desired.

With Advanced Sensors (the card allowing action before maneuver), that's a 48-point Deathrain build. That's quite ambitious, and I'm frankly surprised he has such a good record with it.
I would think a Palpaces or J15K list would annihilate this; standing by for what the rest of the list is.

Sorry for the long delay on this, I was a bit shocked/disappointed to learn the rest of the list was just a loaded-out Redline (2 punishers total - no other ships, final total was 99 points, I believe). Like I said, at our loacal meta, this did surprisingly well and was greatly feared. Can't remember what it lost to, but I think it was a scum y-wing TLT fortress. I do remember it wiped out a Fel build, a poe/falcon build and a tie swarm.

Wow, then that makes his Redline a 51 point build. That's insane.
I've seen Redline used to some effect with a FCS and assorted missiles, but even then that was a build in the mid-40's. He must have given Redline ALL THE ORDNANCE.
Impressive that he beat the lists you mentioned with 1-agility ships with only 18hp between them.

Yeah, I was not present for the games (I only play casual, refuse to play tournaments), but from what I understand he used asteroids a lot to help with boxing opponents in, and the build he had preferred to move first to force enemies into the cluster mines and such. He tested the build with my brother a lot, from what I understand - and it just worked.

I'm a big fan of Punishers, one reason simply being their looks, the other being their ability to take a Fire Control system.

I typically run my Punisher as follows:

Redline
Fire Control System
Extra Munitions
Concussion Missiles or Plasma Torpedoes
Cluster Missiles
Guidance Chips

I've always been a big fan of Cluster Missiles, especially against slow moving targets (anything with 1 or less for agility.) Redline's ability to use it's second target lock to re-roll missed attack dice combined with the Guidance chips can be simply brutal.

 Cothonian wrote:
I'm a big fan of Punishers, one reason simply being their looks, the other being their ability to take a Fire Control system.

I typically run my Punisher as follows:

Redline
Fire Control System
Extra Munitions
Concussion Missiles or Plasma Torpedoes
Cluster Missiles
Guidance Chips

I've always been a big fan of Cluster Missiles, especially against slow moving targets (anything with 1 or less for agility.) Redline's ability to use it's second target lock to re-roll missed attack dice combined with the Guidance chips can be simply brutal.

This is exactly why I like "Redline" more than "Deathrain", who appears to be most people's favorite for some reason.

Ive used this and killed a decimator, that's 18 dice IF lined up right!

“Deathrain” (42)
TIE Punisher (26)
Accuracy Corrector (3)
Extra Munitions (2)
Cluster Missiles (4)
Cluster Mines (4)
Experimental Interface (3)

I'm more interested in how 3 ships with almost no green dice even survived much less won.

Green dice are a lie.

 Anpu-adom wrote:
Green dice are a lie.

When red dice betray you, you just have a bad round of shooting.

When green dice betray you, you die in a fire.

 DanielBeaver wrote:

 Anpu-adom wrote:
Green dice are a lie.

When red dice betray you, you just have a bad round of shooting.

When green dice betray you, you die in a fire.

Haha, too good.

 Maddok_Death wrote:
Ive used this and killed a decimator, that's 18 dice IF lined up right!

“Deathrain” (42)
TIE Punisher (26)
Accuracy Corrector (3)
Extra Munitions (2)
Cluster Missiles (4)
Cluster Mines (4)
Experimental Interface (3)

18 dice? How so? You do know you can only drop 1 bomb per round ("Bombs", p7)?

I see what you are talking about, I miss used it then. I was using experimental interface to use them since Cluster mines has the Actions header. I did a quick googling and some blog from this year have posted similar builds to drop bombs. Now I know, Thanks

 Maddok_Death wrote:
I see what you are talking about, I miss used it then. I was using experimental interface to use them since Cluster mines has the Actions header. I did a quick googling and some blog from this year have posted similar builds to drop bombs. Now I know, Thanks

No worries - I only pointed it out because I was curious and we had the same thing come up with my friend's list about double-dropping bombs .