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Chaos Space Marines Crimson Slaughter List!

2 x 10 csm (4 plasma guns):
Spartan Assault Tank:
20 csm w/ close combat weapon and pistol, mark of khorne, icon of wrath, power fist, melta bombs: (S6 on the charge 4 attacks each, re-rolling hits)
Fabius Bile:
Dark Apostle:
5 possessed in a rhino: (help shield be’lakor)
Be’lakor:
2x 10 cultists:
68 models, 1850

Strategy:
This is based off the Brethren of the Dark Covenant formation in Crimson Slaughter. Thus all of the units have fear. This formation bonus gives Zealot and FNP to the possessed and marines as long as the Dark Apostle is alive and within 12 inches.
Be’lakor hides behind the Spartan and gives it invisibility (dont ask how that works, its chaos), Rhino helps hide Be’lakor. Cultists camp objectives, unmarked marines advance to midfield and shoot their plasma. When the Spartan and Be’lakor arrive, death ensues.

What would you do against this with your army? Any suggestions to improve?

If your strategy hinges on invisibility on the Land Raider, you'll find it harder than you think with a single psyker (even one as badass as Be'lakor). If you roll a 1 or 2 for your D6 you have a pretty low chance of casting it. Usually you want to throw 5 or 6 dice at it.

There's 2 ways to do it I think.

1.Get rid of Be'lakor and take 2 or 3 sorcerers. You can either take 2 in the CAD, or you could take 3-5 with no tax in that new Cabal from the Black Legion supplement. You are extremely likely to get invis with 6+ rolls.

2. If you want to keep Be'lakor then I'd suggest maybe dumping the CSM CAD with him, and taking an allied detachment with Be'lakor and 11+ pink horrors.

CHAøSs wrote:
Chaos Space Marines Crimson Slaughter List!

2 x 10 csm (4 plasma guns):
Spartan Assault Tank:
20 csm w/ close combat weapon and pistol, mark of khorne, icon of wrath, power fist, melta bombs: (S6 on the charge 4 attacks each, re-rolling hits)
Fabius Bile:
Dark Apostle:
5 possessed in a rhino: (help shield be’lakor)
Be’lakor:
2x 10 cultists:
68 models, 1850

Strategy:
This is based off the Brethren of the Dark Covenant formation in Crimson Slaughter. Thus all of the units have fear. This formation bonus gives Zealot and FNP to the possessed and marines as long as the Dark Apostle is alive and within 12 inches.
Be’lakor hides behind the Spartan and gives it invisibility (dont ask how that works, its chaos), Rhino helps hide Be’lakor. Cultists camp objectives, unmarked marines advance to midfield and shoot their plasma. When the Spartan and Be’lakor arrive, death ensues.

What would you do against this with your army? Any suggestions to improve?

Well, I've been looking at other lists posted specifically to gameplan with my list, so I'll let you in on what I'd do, since we probably won't be playing eachother.

My List:



I'd pare down your marines/rhino at range with my S8 AP3 rokkits (I have 30, that's about 10 insta killed no armour save marines per turn) and my S7 heavy D3 deffgun lootas,(which would also chew your cultists at extreme range.) then hit them with the meganobz (2+ armour save, 20 WS6 S8 FC PKs per unit, and i got 3, my tankbustas also got meltabombs for your landraider once my boyz get into CC with your boyz) and my scouting bikerstar would blast full speed at belakor. (Invisibility is nice, but my ork BS is already gak and I have enough TL dakkagun shots from my bikes to make up for it, and would probably merc him in CC to boot.) While all your units where worried about survival, my grots would grab objectives. (You have 6 squads total, I got seven just to engage the enemy and two for objectives. Once my trukks drop off their boyz, they're basically just objective grabbers too, so that's potentially another 6 grabbers for 8 objective grabbers total.) To beat me, you'd need to pop my 6 trukks by turn 2. (I honestly think you could only manage half. Your units have some strong shooting but the larger numbers means you're more suited to knocking down a couple high armour vehicles, not half a dozen fast light ones.) Boiling it down, I think you're going to have trouble with MSU style and high mobility style armies, so watch out for that. I don't know much about CSM, but I do know you'd need more dakka to deal with these types of armies. (Scat bikes, mechanized AM, SM bikers)

UncleanOne wrote:
If your strategy hinges on invisibility on the Land Raider, you'll find it harder than you think with a single psyker (even one as badass as Be'lakor). If you roll a 1 or 2 for your D6 you have a pretty low chance of casting it. Usually you want to throw 5 or 6 dice at it.

There's 2 ways to do it I think.

1.Get rid of Be'lakor and take 2 or 3 sorcerers. You can either take 2 in the CAD, or you could take 3-5 with no tax in that new Cabal from the Black Legion supplement. You are extremely likely to get invis with 6+ rolls.

2. If you want to keep Be'lakor then I'd suggest maybe dumping the CSM CAD with him, and taking an allied detachment with Be'lakor and 11+ pink horrors.

I don't have daemons codex what do pink horrors do? Your suggestion for another psyker is intriguing, perhaps I could replace fabius with 2 lvl 2 sorcs?That is a lot more dice for Be'lakor to play with. Or perhaps both your changes? The list is already pretty thin on fat but if I cut the cultists thats 100 points for horrors.

Edit: It seems that I could feasibly take both of your suggestions if I am correct that 20 cultists = 11 cultists almost exactly and I see that they give psychic dice!

CHAøSs wrote:

Thanks for the response! Just so you know the Spartan has 5 HP and is immune to melta extra dice. You might have a lot of trouble breaking AV14 all around with only S8. I do not think you would want to blast your bikes at Be'lakor because he is hiding BEHIND the tank with my 20 khorne marines inside, they reroll charge range, so your bikes would never get to him unless you pop the tank. Also dirge casters = no overwatch. I think Be'lakor would eat your meganobz (WS9 6 S7 AP2 flesh bane attacks), and once the tank delivers its tasty payload Be'lakor is gonna be invis. It sounds like it'd really be worth the investment against your list to make all my marines T5 so they get their FNP save! I would also think that ALL of my units having fear + all your units having -1 LD from Be'lakor is going to cause a lot of running orks? I haven't played orks in awhile but they still seem like they would run a lot. Don't forget psychic shriek

14 all around? Yikes. (Been awhile since I played vs one, it's not common in my meta thanks to a bunch of Tau and Eldar armies kicking around my FLGS.) Yeah, the only way I could get it is with a PK in CC. (Edit: Although now that I think about it, 24 of my rokkits have the tank hunters special rule, would that still work even if melta doesn't?) I'd probably have to sacrifice a unit of meganobz to pop it, but after the khorne marines mop the floor with my meganobz (they'd have what, 60 attacks? Unless they got pinned in the wreck of course . ) they'd be open to those 30 rokkits. (Which would kill off half those marines on average, then there's the deffgunz and dakka gunz too.) The thing with my bullyboy formation is they also get fearless, so Be'lakor wouldn't affect the nobz, and I believe the bikes makes that unit unaffected by morale. (Edit 2: I guess that's just pinning.) Be'lakor should be much more worried about the bikes definitely. Scout forward 6" after deployment, move 12", 39 TL S5 shots, charge 2D6+reroll. (Or Zhard can scout, move, and turbo 24" and attempt to tank shock him. If Bel'akor is fearless, I believe he has to death or glory? In which case, if he wounds Zhard, even if it's saved, they are now locked in combat. If he fails to wound, which is hard with fleshbane admittedly, but he is T6, Bel'akor is immediately removed with no saves.) Depending on how close he is deployed I could get that turn one even if he is hiding, so watch your deployment vs biker lists. Your marines have to be outside the raider to block the charge, and that leaves them open to the shooting. The biker shooting itself could put the hurt on Bel'akor, even if I can't overwatch too. If you get the bikes in CC vs Bel'akor or the Khorne marines, keep in mind you'd have to kill 9 WS 5, T5, 4+ armour, FNP bikers to get to the real meaty part of that squad (Painboy w/ poison attacks, zhardsnark who has an I 4 PK, warboss with pk and almost as many re-rolls (to hit, to wound, to save) as I like, and a Nob with PK. (The bosses are T6! These 4 models have about 10 wounds themselves.) If Bel'akor got into it with one of the meganobz unit, he'd kill 3 out of five if every single attack of his caused a wound, leaving him open to almost 10 pk attacks back worst case, probably average 15. (They have 2 W each. What's Bel's T? He might be vulnerable to insta kill.) My units are smaller but more survivable and more manoeuvrable, so if you got stuck in you'd be at risk of more orks piling in the following turns

Just thinking about it makes my orks really wanna draw iron at ya!

Not that I have all the answers of course, khorne vs orks just always gets my green blood pumping with the possibilities. Glorious CC is all too rare. Everyone else is too weedy.

And of course, I do mean for this theory hammer to benefit the both of us, not just to talk up how awesome my list is. I would say definitely make your marines T5. S8 is fairly common, especially in CC. But even beyond that, you'll take 33% fewer wounds vs S3, 16% fewer vs S4, and also 16% fewer vs S5. It's just as good as giving them terminator armour in terms of saving wounds, even if it doesn't feel like it, and yeah, stops that pesky insta kill from anything but the heaviest gak in the game. (Meltas, my pk warbosses ) Also, I would go for the extra psykers over Bile. That's scarier to me. Horrors are good for generating WCs and can cast some stuff too, but I don't know if I'd toss out the cultists for them. You really need some objective grabbers. What's the point of going the distance if you lose on points? That's an ignoble way to go. . Does the spartan have lascannons? If so, in combo with your plasma you could probably knock out a trukk or two per turn. You'd be tempted to go after the meganobz, but they'd probably survive the explosion without a scratch and I'd dump a squad of tankbustas on foot so the meganobz could steal their trukk. The bustas are primarily ranged after all, so I don't really care if they footslog. Better to blow up their trukks first, they will lose way more boyz to an explosion. (They only have T shirt saves, and after a turn or two I'd dump them into cover somewhere anyway.)


Best of luck! Go chop up them smurfs, fish heads, and pointy ears, show 'em what CC is all about!

(For the record, our game would end up with everyone dead but my grots for the win. )

 slip wrote:

CHAøSs wrote:

Thanks for the response! Just so you know the Spartan has 5 HP and is immune to melta extra dice. You might have a lot of trouble breaking AV14 all around with only S8. I do not think you would want to blast your bikes at Be'lakor because he is hiding BEHIND the tank with my 20 khorne marines inside, they reroll charge range, so your bikes would never get to him unless you pop the tank. Also dirge casters = no overwatch. I think Be'lakor would eat your meganobz (WS9 6 S7 AP2 flesh bane attacks), and once the tank delivers its tasty payload Be'lakor is gonna be invis. It sounds like it'd really be worth the investment against your list to make all my marines T5 so they get their FNP save! I would also think that ALL of my units having fear + all your units having -1 LD from Be'lakor is going to cause a lot of running orks? I haven't played orks in awhile but they still seem like they would run a lot. Don't forget psychic shriek

14 all around? Yikes. (Been awhile since I played vs one, it's not common in my meta thanks to a bunch of Tau and Eldar armies kicking around my FLGS.) Yeah, the only way I could get it is with a PK in CC. (Edit: Although now that I think about it, 24 of my rokkits have the tank hunters special rule, would that still work even if melta doesn't?) I'd probably have to sacrifice a unit of meganobz to pop it, but after the khorne marines mop the floor with my meganobz (they'd have what, 60 attacks? Unless they got pinned in the wreck of course . ) they'd be open to those 30 rokkits. (Which would kill off half those marines on average, then there's the deffgunz and dakka gunz too.) The thing with my bullyboy formation is they also get fearless, so Be'lakor wouldn't affect the nobz, and I believe the bikes makes that unit unaffected by morale. (Edit 2: I guess that's just pinning.) Be'lakor should be much more worried about the bikes definitely. Scout forward 6" after deployment, move 12", 39 TL S5 shots, charge 2D6+reroll. (Or Zhard can scout, move, and turbo 24" and attempt to tank shock him. If Bel'akor is fearless, I believe he has to death or glory? In which case, if he wounds Zhard, even if it's saved, they are now locked in combat. If he fails to wound, which is hard with fleshbane admittedly, but he is T6, Bel'akor is immediately removed with no saves.) Depending on how close he is deployed I could get that turn one even if he is hiding, so watch your deployment vs biker lists. Your marines have to be outside the raider to block the charge, and that leaves them open to the shooting. The biker shooting itself could put the hurt on Bel'akor, even if I can't overwatch too. If you get the bikes in CC vs Bel'akor or the Khorne marines, keep in mind you'd have to kill 9 WS 5, T5, 4+ armour, FNP bikers to get to the real meaty part of that squad (Painboy w/ poison attacks, zhardsnark who has an I 4 PK, warboss with pk and almost as many re-rolls (to hit, to wound, to save) as I like, and a Nob with PK. (The bosses are T6! These 4 models have about 10 wounds themselves.) If Bel'akor got into it with one of the meganobz unit, he'd kill 3 out of five if every single attack of his caused a wound, leaving him open to almost 10 pk attacks back worst case, probably average 15. (They have 2 W each. What's Bel's T? He might be vulnerable to insta kill.) My units are smaller but more survivable and more manoeuvrable, so if you got stuck in you'd be at risk of more orks piling in the following turns

Just thinking about it makes my orks really wanna draw iron at ya!

Not that I have all the answers of course, khorne vs orks just always gets my green blood pumping with the possibilities. Glorious CC is all too rare. Everyone else is too weedy.

And of course, I do mean for this theory hammer to benefit the both of us, not just to talk up how awesome my list is. I would say definitely make your marines T5. S8 is fairly common, especially in CC. But even beyond that, you'll take 33% fewer wounds vs S3, 16% fewer vs S4, and also 16% fewer vs S5. It's just as good as giving them terminator armour in terms of saving wounds, even if it doesn't feel like it, and yeah, stops that pesky insta kill from anything but the heaviest gak in the game. (Meltas, my pk warbosses ) Also, I would go for the extra psykers over Bile. That's scarier to me. Horrors are good for generating WCs and can cast some stuff too, but I don't know if I'd toss out the cultists for them. You really need some objective grabbers. What's the point of going the distance if you lose on points? That's an ignoble way to go. . Does the spartan have lascannons? If so, in combo with your plasma you could probably knock out a trukk or two per turn. You'd be tempted to go after the meganobz, but they'd probably survive the explosion without a scratch and I'd dump a squad of tankbustas on foot so the meganobz could steal their trukk. The bustas are primarily ranged after all, so I don't really care if they footslog. Better to blow up their trukks first, they will lose way more boyz to an explosion. (They only have T shirt saves, and after a turn or two I'd dump them into cover somewhere anyway.)


Best of luck! Go chop up them smurfs, fish heads, and pointy ears, show 'em what CC is all about!

(For the record, our game would end up with everyone dead but my grots for the win. )

Ya theory hammer is mutually beneficial! Also CC ftw. As long as it's invisible your odds of downing the Spartan with your 30 S8 rockets rerolling to pen would be 30*1/6 hit *(1/6+5/6*1/6)to pen = 1.53 glances/turn (pen impossible). So if you got a bit lucky you could kill it in 3 turns of shooting all of your rockets (massacring my marines sounds much better usage for them).

Be'lakor is T5 with a 4++ EW 4 wounds. If I ever purposely get him in combat he will have invis, otherwise he is hiding behind the Spartan Rhino and Tac marines. So hit chance of 1/6*5/6 to wound * 4++ means the mega's with 15 attacks will do on average 1.0 wounds.

As far as killing Trukks, The Spartan comes with 4 TL lascannons.

The Khorne marines will have 80 S6 attacks on the charge, rerolling to hit. +Fabius + the Apostle, The Spartan is an assault vehicle, so I would assault out of it onto the bikes ideally, and only after the bikes are killed will I be exposed.
Versus 9 WS 5, T5, 4+ armour, FNP bikers: 80*3/4 to hit * 2/3 to wound * 1/2 unsaved * 2/3 non FNP = 13.3 dead bikers on average if I charge, not counting the 2 ICs. That means your IC's are gonna take damage turn 1.

How many wounds to the Nobs have? And they are T6 2+ save? That sounds really scary for my squad to fight, They will definitely be the target of all the plasma. My 20 marine squad only has 5 PF attacks per turn, So I think if they have 2 wounds I could only kill like 5 of them a turn with the whole squad. Also seems like they would be prime targets for psychic shriek? (3D6-LD = number of wounds no cover or armor allowed). I believe fearless doesnt prevent your actual LD from being lowered for the spell does it?

Slightly altered list is this better? Traded out Fabius (and thus S6 on the marines) for T5 on the shooty marines and a lvl 3 sorc.
2 x 10 csm, mark of nurgle (4 plasma guns): T5 FNP
Spartan Assault Tank:
20 csm w/ close combat weapon and pistol, mark of khorne, icon of wrath, power fist: (S5 on the charge 4 attacks each, re-rolling hits)
Dark Apostle:
Lvl 3 Sorc (telepathy probably):
5 possessed in a rhino: (help shield be’lakor)
Be’lakor:
2x 10 cultists:
68 models, 1850

Nah, the meganobz are T4. Zhard and the warboss are T6, and the rest of the bikers are T5. But yeah, the meganobz have a 2+ save and 2 wounds. Psychic shriek will do 3 wounds on average, maybe four. (5, maybe six if fearless doesn't prevent the -2 mod.) It would definitely put the hurt on, over the course of the game would probably wipe a whole unit by itself. (5 meganobz have 10 wounds.)

The bikers are much more manoeuvrable than the spartan, (That is such a badass name btw, surprised it's chaos who get it.) you'd probably only be able to charge them if they were already in combat, or tried to destroy the spartan. That last one I'd probably leave up to the meganobs. Can khorne marines be pinned? Exploding it, knocking out a few marines, and forcing the rest to take a pinning/morale test could be crippling. (Otherwise whatever unit assaults the spartan is toast next turn. Your khorne marines could wipe out any of my squads in one turn, save maybe my biker squad with 3 ICs and a champion lol.)

3/4 to hit might be optimistic. Bullyboy formation also gives the meganobz +1 WS, make them WS 5. I'm guessing the marines are ws4, but Khorne might be giving them a bonus I don't know about. 5+ to hit with a re-roll is 2/3. (The bikes are WS 5 too, but that's due to the lucky stikk. I'll talk about it in a bit.)

if there happened to be a marine vs bikes fight, the biker ICs will be much tougher than the basic biker with ws 6, t 6. The no name warboss has the lucky stikk, which allows him all those re-rerolls I mentioned up to the point I fail 3 rerolls in a turn, which then removes him from the game. It also gives the unit +1 WS, which is why they're ws 5 and the bosses ws 6. Zhard would strike simultaneously with the marines, (I 4 right?) and the other boss should live with those rerolls. There's ten 2/3*5/6 instakills right there. 13 wounds would kill the basic bikers, but would barely scratch the bike star within. (Maybe kill the nob, leaving the two bosses and painboy. I'd still lose combat, and then the next turn would probably be the end of the ICs unless I got more units in somehow.)

Ideally, I'd get two or more unit of meganobz in with your khornies. 2+ saves and 2 W should keep them standing (no guarantees vs 80! attacks. Wow, that number boggles the mind) and a full unit has 20 PK attacks on the charge. (3 units means 60 potentially if I can get them all in. Trukks are fast assault vehicles, so maybe.(They can move 24" a turn, or move 6, the squad disembarks, moves 6, and charges 2d6+reroll.) They also have FC, so they'd be S 9.) They would be insta killed by your pf though, but they'd strike at the same time so I'd still get my attacks. That's probably my only hope of pulling that one out.

Those 4 TL lascannons are scary, but massive overkill. You'd end up having to snap fire the rest so I'd feel safe it could do only one a turn reliably. Those trukks though are the engine of my list, the meganobz are crazy slow and can't run, the rokkits are relatively short range. But I do have six trukks, and all six of them are cheaper than that spartan so if it spent all game shooting at them I'd be happy, and if it didn't I'd be even happier. They'll scare the bejeezus out of SM, Eldar, and Tau though.

Be'lakor would be in major trouble imo. Either of the warbosses could instakill him if they did inflict a single wound. Invisible is scary, but you can only have it on either Be'l or the spartan, and the one that didn't have it would be in trouble. I did the math on the tank shock trick i mentioned (it's a special rule zhad has.) and if Be'l is within 42" from him at the start of the game I have a 1/6 chance of killing him outright, no saves, all the wounds. If that fails, Be'l is locked in CC with a model who can instakill him with a single unsaved wound. (This is assuming Be'l has to death or glory, if he doesn't this would be a very dumb thing for me to do, leaving zhad by himself in your lines for your turn.) 5 attacks on the charge at I 4 and that is a very real possibility. If I go first, there might not be any invisibility at all! E: Fearless just means you auto mass the morale check, not that you have to death or glory, so ignore this.

Your tac squads really don't scare me too much, all the plasma cannons combined will probably take out one or two trukks a turn, and they'd be extremely vulnerable to the rokkit barrage. Assuming the scary khorne squad is embarked, the rokkits would wipe a ten man tac unit to the man in a turn on average, splitting fire I could take out significant portions of both. (3 units of 8 rokkits each, one on each trukk.) In CC they'd be a squishy speedbump to the bikers or the nobz. The plasma would be scary vs my meganobz, but they'd have to pop the transport first, and then tag 'em before they jumped into another. (E: I guess I should say they don't scare me too much if I get to go first and shoot them up or charge them. They go first, yeah, they'd probably pop a trukk each. With the 4 tl lascannons, you could pop all three of my tankbusta trukks, killing a whole bunch of tankbustas, and leaving all your marines to engage in CC with almost no fear of range attacks.)

Grots vs cultists would be the most hilarious CC in the game.

I gotta say, going through all the parts, I really do like your list. Spiritually they're very similar. In all seriousness I think it would probably come down to whoever got to go first. If you got the first turn and popped three trukks I'd be in trouble, if I went first and dumped my full array of rokkits, the opposite would be true.

What's your plan when you run into the inevitable wraithknight? I think I'd be stuck throwing rokkits and s7 deff gun shots at it, and maybe throwing some meganobz into the meatgrinder. The higher ws should keep down most of the hits, and the 2 W gives them a shot at survivng 2-5 on the D table, then the # of pks should drag it down.

E: I like your changes. S6 is nice but kind of overkill, S5 should do the trick. The only noticeable different is you can't instakill eldar characters, but I doubt they'd last in CC anyway. You only have 20 marines out in the open, so T5 will keep them live way longer, and the lvl 3 sorc will let you pull all kinds of nasty tricks. (Another invisibility or psyhic shriek would be gross and very hard to counter. You could wipe two full units of my meganobz by turn 3.)

 slip wrote:
Nah, the meganobz are T4. Zhard and the warboss are T6, and the rest of the bikers are T5. But yeah, the meganobz have a 2+ save and 2 wounds. Psychic shriek will do 3 wounds on average, maybe four. (5, maybe six if fearless doesn't prevent the -2 mod.) It would definitely put the hurt on, over the course of the game would probably wipe a whole unit by itself. (5 meganobz have 10 wounds.)

The bikers are much more manoeuvrable than the spartan, (That is such a badass name btw, surprised it's chaos who get it.) you'd probably only be able to charge them if they were already in combat, or tried to destroy the spartan. That last one I'd probably leave up to the meganobs. Can khorne marines be pinned? Exploding it, knocking out a few marines, and forcing the rest to take a pinning/morale test could be crippling.

3/4 to hit might be optimistic. Bullyboy formation also gives the meganobz +1 WS, make them WS 5. I'm guessing the marines are ws4, but Khorne might be giving them a bonus I don't know about. 5+ to hit with a re-roll is 2/3. (The bikes are WS 5 too, but that's due to the lucky stikk. I'll talk about it in a bit.)

if there happened to be a marine vs bikes fight, the biker ICs will be much tougher than the basic biker with ws 6, t 6. The no name warboss has the lucky stikk, which allows him all those re-rerolls I mentioned up to the point I fail 3 rerolls in a turn, which then removes him from the game. It also gives the unit +1 WS, which is why they're ws 5 and the bosses ws 6. Zhard would strike simultaneously with the marines, (I 4 right?) and the other boss should live with those rerolls. There's ten 2/3*5/6 instakills right there. 13 wounds would kill the basic bikers, but would barely scratch the bike star within. (Maybe kill the nob, leaving the two bosses and painboy.)

Ideally, I'd get one or more unit of meganobz in with your khornies. 2+ saves and 2 W should keep most of them standing and a full unit has 20 PK attacks on the charge. (3 units means 60 potentially if I can get them all in. Trukks are fast assault vehicles, so maybe.(They can move 24" a turn, or move 6, the squad disembarks, moves 6, and charges 2d6+reroll.) They also have FC, so they'd be S 9.) They would be insta killed by your pf though, but they'd strike at the same time so I'd still get my attacks.

Those 4 TL lascannons are scary, but massive overkill. You'd end up having to snap fire the rest so I'd feel safe it could do only one a turn reliably. Those trukks though are the engine of my list, the meganobz are crazy slow and can't run, the rokkits are relatively short range. But I do have six trukks, and all six of them are cheaper than that spartan so if it spent all game shooting at them I'd be happy, and if it didn't I'd be even happier. They'll scare the bejeezus out of SM, Eldar, and Tau though.

Be'lakor would be in major trouble imo. Either of the warbosses could instakill him if they did inflict a single wound. Invisible is scary, but you can only have it on either Be'l or the spartan, and the one that didn't have it would be in trouble. I did the math on the tank shock trick i mentioned (it's a special rule zhad has.) and if Be'l is within 42" from him at the start of the game I have a 1/6 chance of killing him outright, no saves, all the wounds. If that fails, Be'l is locked in CC with a model who can instakill him with a single unsaved wound. (This is assuming Be'l has to death or glory, if he doesn't this would be a very dumb thing for me to do, leaving zhad by himself in your lines for your turn.) 5 attacks on the charge at I 4 and that is a very real possibility. If I go first, there might not be any invisibility at all!

Your tac squads really don't scare me too much, all the plasma cannons combined will probably take out one or two trukks a turn, and they'd be extremely vulnerable to the rokkit barrage. Assuming the scary khorne squad is embarked, the rokkits would wipe a ten man tac unit to the man in a turn on average, splitting fire I could take out significant portions of both. (3 units of 8 rokkits each, one on each trukk.) In CC they'd be a squishy speedbump to the bikers or the nobz. The plasma would be scary vs my meganobz, but they'd have to pop the transport first, and then tag 'em before they jumped into another.

Grots vs cultists would be the most hilarious CC in the game.

I gotta say, going through all the parts, I really do like your list. Spiritually they're very similar. In all seriousness I think it would probably come down to whoever got to go first. If you got the first turn and popped three trukks I'd be in trouble, if I went first and smeared Be'l and dumped my full array of rokkits, the opposite would be true.

What's your plan when you run into the inevitable wraithknight? I think I'd be stuck throwing rokkits and s7 deff gun shots at it, and maybe throwing some meganobz into the meatgrinder. The higher ws should keep down most of the hits, and the 2 W gives them a shot at survivng 2-5 on the D table, then the # of pks should drag it down.

E: I like your changes. S6 is nice but kind of overkill, S5 should do the trick. The only noticeable different is you can't instakill eldar characters, but I doubt they'd last in CC anyway. You only have 20 marines out in the open, so T5 will keep them live way longer, and the lvl 3 sorc will let you pull all kinds of nasty tricks. (Another invisibility or psyhic shriek would be gross and very hard to counter.)

Khorne Marines can't be pinned because they have zealot! As far as the biker star math, I did not include the power fist of either of the ICs. Is a force weapon much threat to your warbosses?
Be'lakor has eternal warrior so he cannot be instakilled . Can you do the tank shock thing without any LOS on Be'lakor? He is also my answer to wraithknights, he will destroy them easily.
The T5 marines will still get hit hard by those S8 ap3 rockets, maybe I should just scrap them? 30*1/2 to hit*5/6 to wound*2/3 not saved by cover (if I have cover)*2/3 not saved by FNP = 5.5 dead marines a turn 8 if no cover.

OMG just thought of this, I am pretty sure this is way superior:
Spartan Assault Tank:
20 csm w/ close combat weapon and pistol, mark of khorne, icon of wrath, power fist: (S5 on the charge 4 attacks each, re-rolling hits)
Lvl 2 sorc
Lvl 3 Sorc, Spell Familiar (telepathy probably):
Be’lakor:
2x 10 cultists:
Kytan Daemon Engine of Khorne

60%+ chance of getting 2nd invis. 1st invis definitely goes on the kytan, and I'll let the AV14 5 HP tank for itself.
Presents only the cultists (who will camp in cover on back objectives) to anti infantry fire.

Force weapons are scary, I have no inv so they'd be toasted. I was wrong about the tank shock, I doubled checked. Be'lakor just auto passes his morale check and could harmlessly move out of the way, leaving zhad totally exposed and probably dead next turn, so it would be a dumb thing for me to do. Unless you really wanted to death or glory me. (Which would be a dumb thing to do.) I'd only need LOS after the 6" scout, 12" move, before the 24" turbo boost.

T5 will help you out immensely vs almost any other list. You probably won't play too many orks, and even fewer will max out their 3 elite slots with tankbustas. My list is probably the only time they wouldn't, but vs anything else but rokkits they're mathematically as survivable as termies. Conversely, my tankbustas would probably be totally murdered to the break and run point if you blow up their trukk. (AP1 is a 4+ explodes result, AP2 is 5+, trukks are open topped so you get a base 6+ chance. Auto S4 hit on every model, 6+ save means 1/2*5/6 chance of it dying, which means lots of dead orks.)

Double checking the math, there's nothing in my list that can stand up to your khorne unit, save maybe getting all three of my meganobz unit in with them. I'd say keep the S6 if you want them to bust up a wraithknight. (Which I didn't think about before, but 80 S6 attacks would murder a WK.) Otherwise 80 S5 attacks would be just as effective as S6 vs any infantry type unit in the game. Most bikes only go up to 10 models and won't have 3 ICs attached, so they'll probably wipe any other bike unit in the game. S6 would be better if you plan on assaulting AV12 vehicles, but otherwise 80 S5 hits will do the job vs AV10-11. (And you do have pf to pop those tougher nuts, you don't need all the marines to chip in.) There's just so many damn attacks you don't really need the extra 16% chance to wound, especially if you're re-rolling hits. (Seriously trying to wrap my mind over this concept, it's nuts! I thought orks could dish out a lot of attacks, but they're only S4 with FC, otherwise orks are S3, and the only way for orks to equal that is 20 boyz who are nowhere near as survivable with 6+ armour. They could go in a battlewagon which is AV 14, but only on the front.)

My only chances would be to go first, blast your plasma squads with rokkits, then blast your khorne marines with rokkits.

You're plasma and lascannons are only slightly less effective because I'm spamming 30 point AV10 3 HP fast open topped transports. 4 lascannons or 4 plasma cannons would blow up one with no problems, I just have a bunch. Vs AV 12+ vehicles like wave serpants, chimeras etc. you'd be able to pop just as easily, but those are more than double the cost of a trukk. You'd also see maybe three of those tops, not six. When it comes to AV 13, you actually could pop one with a turn of shooting, something no ork list could ever do, even my list with 30 damn rokkits. (You did the math on my race's best anti-tank shooting vs your spartan yourself. Most ork lists will have a third to half the amount of rokkits, and much more 24" S4 AP6 assualt 2 weapons, our "anti-infantry".) We'd have to get in CC with an HQ choice with a PK. If you toss the plasma cannons, you open yourself up to enemy vehicles, which wasn't a weakness for you before. AP2 blasts are also very effective vs armoured infantry, and will blast through termies and cents.

E: Your new list would be a lot harder for me to kill, but the 8 plasma cannons will be much better vs all comers. Other races will have nasty anti-tank weapons which will pop the daemon engine. I didn't mean to give you the impression your list was weak, it's really not, my list just has some unique ways to exploit your list and you asked people what'd they do with their lists vs you. My "unique" exploit is that my anti-tank shooting is more effective vs your infantry than your tank. (Orks don't get AP1 or AP2 shooting.) Even with the rokkits, you stand a pretty damn good chance of taking my list down. T5 marines taking other lists anti-tank fire to kill is a pretty massive success for you, and they'd be hard to kill with most lists anti-infantry shooting. (Which is typically S5 with 3 shots like big shootas or heavy bolters, or flamers. I can't think think of any other "anti-infantry" AP3 weapons. Most other races anti tank will be melta guns or lascannons, and maybe six of them. Not nearly enough to wipe your squads.)

But seriously, don't tailor your list to beat mine, tailor it to beat Eldar, Tau, and SM and you'll be sitting pretty. If you are facing orks, just hit the tankbustas and you'll be fine.

I know T5 would help a lot against most lists, but I'm not sure many lists have an answer for an invisible kytan either. How much anti AV 13 can they bring when 1/6 of it hits! Haha no one builds a deathstar like marines, although your bikes are pretty good. Also you are drastically overestimating the marines firepower, they have two plasma GUNS each, not cannons.

The Spartan has like a 100% chance to destroy 1 Trukk a turn lol

Ah I misread. I'd be mostly worried about dropping your model count to 45, half that being cultists. That hurts your staying power and your ability to capture objectives. Your anti-vehicle ability also still takes a hit. Not to mention if your opponent gets the first turn, you won't have invisibility. For a more competitive list, I'd find a way to add more dakka and more models. Maybe some obliterators?

You don't think that 6 D hits on the charge is anti vehicle? I do agree that the objective capping ability is severely limited

Not really, getting into combat is hard enough with warbikes and fast assault transports. Vs Tau and Eldar skimmers or ranged support vehicles, it's just not going to happen. Going back to my list, you had the potential to knock out 2-3 trukks per turn, now you can do 1 tops. You could assault one, after its already done all its transporting. Your enemies will have 1850 points of hurt focusing on two vehicles for multiple turns with almost zero worries about return fire. If they go first or you don't roll another invisibility, you're toast before the game even starts. The vehicles you do have are pretty slow, it could be turn 3 before you even have the chance of a charge and that's if you give up what little shooting you do have. Your spartan probably won't even have invisibility now either, I guarantee it's going to get popped turn one and your slow footslogging CC unit is going to be cannon fodder.

I do not think you can say the Kytan is slow, he moves 12, has fleet,crusader, and move through cover. Turn 1 on average he is gonna be like 7 inches from enemy deployment, easy turn 2 charge no?

Also just curious what weapons do you encounter that can do 5 melta immune av 14 HPs in 1 turn? Or will they explode it?

Possible improvement? More anti tank and armor saturation.

Sicaran with lascannon sponson:
Kytan Daemon Engine:
Be'lakor:

Spartan:
15 csm khorne icon (4 s5 attacks on charge):
12 pink horrors:
3x 10 cultists:

61 models

CHAøSs wrote:


Thanks for the response! Just so you know the Spartan has 5 HP and is immune to melta extra dice. You might have a lot of trouble breaking AV14 all around with only S8. I do not think you would want to blast your bikes at Be'lakor because he is hiding BEHIND the tank with my 20 khorne marines inside, they reroll charge range, so your bikes would never get to him unless you pop the tank. Also dirge casters = no overwatch. I think Be'lakor would eat your meganobz (WS9 6 S7 AP2 flesh bane attacks), and once the tank delivers its tasty payload Be'lakor is gonna be invis. It sounds like it'd really be worth the investment against your list to make all my marines T5 so they get their FNP save! I would also think that ALL of my units having fear + all your units having -1 LD from Be'lakor is going to cause a lot of running orks? I haven't played orks in awhile but they still seem like they would run a lot. Don't forget psychic shriek

Hi, I don't mean to butt in on the Theory Hammer, but I just wanted to let you know that Melta Bombs will work on the Spartan tank. If you look up the rules for Melta Bombs, their Amourbane, not Melta. Of course normal Melta guns will not get the extra dice bc of AC.

Sorry if this was mentioned after the fact, but I saw this and had to say something for both of you. Have a nice day! Also nice list. I love the Spartan tank.

 Dannygee wrote:

CHAøSs wrote:


Thanks for the response! Just so you know the Spartan has 5 HP and is immune to melta extra dice. You might have a lot of trouble breaking AV14 all around with only S8. I do not think you would want to blast your bikes at Be'lakor because he is hiding BEHIND the tank with my 20 khorne marines inside, they reroll charge range, so your bikes would never get to him unless you pop the tank. Also dirge casters = no overwatch. I think Be'lakor would eat your meganobz (WS9 6 S7 AP2 flesh bane attacks), and once the tank delivers its tasty payload Be'lakor is gonna be invis. It sounds like it'd really be worth the investment against your list to make all my marines T5 so they get their FNP save! I would also think that ALL of my units having fear + all your units having -1 LD from Be'lakor is going to cause a lot of running orks? I haven't played orks in awhile but they still seem like they would run a lot. Don't forget psychic shriek

Hi, I don't mean to butt in on the Theory Hammer, but I just wanted to let you know that Melta Bombs will work on the Spartan tank. If you look up the rules for Melta Bombs, their Amourbane, not Melta. Of course normal Melta guns will not get the extra dice bc of AC.

Sorry if this was mentioned after the fact, but I saw this and had to say something for both of you. Have a nice day! Also nice list. I love the Spartan tank.

Hey thanks man! How do you run the Spartan?

CHAøSs wrote:
I do not think you can say the Kytan is slow, he moves 12, has fleet,crusader, and move through cover. Turn 1 on average he is gonna be like 7 inches from enemy deployment, easy turn 2 charge no?

Also just curious what weapons do you encounter that can do 5 melta immune av 14 HPs in 1 turn? Or will they explode it?

You're assuming your opponent is going to deploy his shooting vehicles on the edge of his deployment zone vs a CC heavy list rather than at the outer edge of the range of their weaponry (36"-48") and not move to boot.

Necron gauss weapons, eldar range D weapons, Tau railrifles, SM grav weapons, Vindicare assassins, psyker abilties, 3 different leman russes, etc. etc. AP1 weapons will have a 1/3 chance of exploding it. Then there's armourbane weapons and units with the tankhunter ability, and ordinance still get their bonus too.

E: An immobilize result would also basically take your marines out of the game.

I also double checked my math on the marines vs my meganobz, and it actually turns out to be about 5 wounds, (Not counting PF) so I'd get 12 PK attacks back. Watch out for terminators with that squad, could be tricky for you.