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Hello Dakka, I need your help here - and with the factions involved I'm certain this is a L2P issue, so to get onto the issue at hand: I have a problem with Tau.

Throughout the many games I've had against Tau I've only managed to win once, and even then that was using a 2+ rerollable seerstar against admittadly a subpar Tau list, and even then that was stupidly close.

List wise I've tried:

Extreme MSU: featuring multiple CAD's with individual units on Hornets, Scatterbikes, Warwalkers (to fill out the Heavy supports and to add more S8to the list), Swooping Hawks (for the ignores cover bombs onto pathfinder/drones) and Farseers for the buffs. [That game ended with the Hornets getting murdered by the Stealth suit/Ghostkeel formation, the hawks by interceptor and overwatch and the bikes by ignores cover shooting]

Extreme Flyer Spam: "Tau have really good AA and interceptor but I've been told if you overload them with stuff coming on then they can't keep up"... fun idea but I suddenly had 5 flyers + swooping hawks dead to interceptor AA... the rest of the list dies to deepstriking units just to pour the salt on. I maintain that It was a fun attempt though!

Seerstar: I multi assaulted his units with the seerstar and wreaked house with the rest of my army dying to massed ignores cover shooting, left me with the objective and the win though!

Wraith list: Wraithknight, bikes, Scouting D flamer Wraithguard in serpents and deepstriking Wraith cannons (GOI style) - I had a lot of success with this list going so far as to table DA Ravenwing lists twice by turn 2 and Necrons by T5 so I figured this had a shot (with the only alteration was a Wraithknight who was the newest addition to the list)... Wave Serpents met the stealth suit/ ghostkeel ignores cover hit the rear armour formation and evaporated stranding the Wraithguard to a prolonged (re)death, Wraithknight killed a riptide but otherwise couldn't make his points back and was largely ignored (shouldn't have scouted him up losing out on a charge), Scat bikes killed the marker light units and then died to swathes of fire...because I've removed Baharroth from the list the Cannons scatteron the deepstrike and are placed in a corner...the farseer then forgets GOI (FML)...I concede by t4

Target priority-
So my current target priority when playing against them is pretty much:

1 - force multipliers such as Marker lights
2 - units that have special rules attached to their shooting abilities (such as ignores cover)
3 - Units with High rate of fire / Highly mobile units
4 - Objective holders
5- Everything else




My two (soon to be 3) common Tau opponents usually have: The infiltration formation (ghostkeel/stealth suits) or countless riptides with all the bells and whistles when it comes to upgrades, supported by markerlights (usually in the form of drone nets/ pathfinders/ skyrays) and in reserve either a farsight bomb a ton of deepstriking battlesuit teams or Broardsides. it should be noted that one has a Taunar suit to drop on me whilst both opponents will be using Stormsurges in the future.

So a few things I should mention: List wise I never want to rely on 30-60 Warp Spiders, I find they are gimmicky and with SMS bubbles that ignore LOS and the new Geomancy powers incoming I can't see the spiders remaining too much of an issue for long, so I don't really want to waste my money on something that can be competitively nerfed into the ground or so violently countered I have to cry myself to sleep with a bottle of Jack.

We have a club house rule meaning that all GMC's and SH's concede 2 tertiary VPs when 2 wounds/hullpoints are caused, also if you have a GMC/SH in your list then your opponent add 1 to their seize attempts.

This is for a league and as such asking a player to 'tone their lists down' isn't an option.

Lastly and most importantly: Any and all posts that are made purely to bash either army will be reported immediately. We've seen too many hate posts for either side and both of these players are people I call friends and who I respect, we all chose our armies dependent on fluff and aesthetic and do not deserve any of the nonsense we've seen recently.

Marker light removal is key. Additional lay, I started using a Skathach Wraithknight with the Deathshroud cannon as this really can clear out infantry/drones dug into cover.

Reserve manipulation and MSU.

Multiple hard hitting assault threats

Psychic Shriek helps as Tau have little defense.

I don't think there is just a auto win list. A lot has to do with in game decisions and having an army with enough flexibility to win the mission. Your thought process is on track from my experience. To be fair, we'll played Tag armies are tough match ups.

Also, use Warp Spiders, they can jump away when targeted. Bane of a shooty army

Are you nerfing the Hunter Cadre detachment bonus (assuming they're running it?)

(I think that's what it's called... the one that allows you to share markerlights and USR's when you combine fire).

zerosignal wrote:
Are you nerfing the Hunter Cadre detachment bonus (assuming they're running it?)

(I think that's what it's called... the one that allows you to share markerlights and USR's when you combine fire).

No neither of them have used it which is a blessing


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Neophyte2012 wrote:
Also, use Warp Spiders, they can jump away when targeted. Bane of a shooty army

They can do, but I've found the SMS systems with 30" range can just murder them since they don't need LOS

 Sarigar wrote:
Marker light removal is key. Additional lay, I started using a Skathach Wraithknight with the Deathshroud cannon as this really can clear out infantry/drones dug into cover.

Have you had a lot of success with the Skathach? I've got one on hand and I keep reading the rules thinking that it'll be a boon of saving success, but every time I've run a WK against Tau he promptly receives a hunter cadre's worth of firepower (and usually 'Surge D-missiles) to the faceplate.

I understand these are deep-strikable, but I find myself still very skeptical.

warp spiders vs tau are... *rainbow hands* AhMaZing!

Also I still love how points efficient a group of fire dragons in a waveserpant are for what they do, they almost never do not make back their points.

Dark reapers make farsight bomb players cry.

if you want as a formation the aspect host would rock, +1 BS so hitting on 2s

4x firdragons, 1 exarch with firepike in a WS with SL and SC and holofields.

2 dark reapers w/ exarch and starshot missiles x2

487 points, you can add more dark reapers

combine this with a second aspect host with 3 x 5 warp spiders. each with exarch running 315 points with BS5

 Cieged wrote:

 Sarigar wrote:
Marker light removal is key. Additional lay, I started using a Skathach Wraithknight with the Deathshroud cannon as this really can clear out infantry/drones dug into cover.

Have you had a lot of success with the Skathach? I've got one on hand and I keep reading the rules thinking that it'll be a boon of saving success, but every time I've run a WK against Tau he promptly receives a hunter cadre's worth of firepower (and usually 'Surge D-missiles) to the faceplate.

I understand these are deep-strikable, but I find myself still very skeptical.

I use one as my defacto standard in each army list. A lot depends on game time decisions. If I think I'd likely lose the model in the first turn before I get to do anything, I'm likely to deep strike the model. The Hellstorm template, however, does really good work, especially if the Tau player bunches units up in cover a bit too much.

Tau rule, eldar drool

 thefallenjackal wrote:
Tau rule, eldar drool

It must be hard for you to accept how far away eldar power is from taus grasp then huh?

 thefallenjackal wrote:
Tau rule, eldar drool

So very helpful...

GENERAL IN THREAD WARNING:

RULE #3 is NO SPAM.

Meaningful commentary, please!

Well, Im trying to get into Taudar. My current lists are geared to handle the Warp Spider spam, which I would think that as youve mentioned SMS will hurt these short ranged jumpers. Ripple Firing RipTide Wing would ERASE them methinks.

Tau have several weakneses that I am trying to mitigate in my own lists.
- They depend on synergies (ie AOE buffs, markers, characters)
- They have limited low AP access in their most competitive units (BurstWing, MissileSides, StormSurge)
- They have low leadership.
- They have no psychic Footprint.
- They have no competitive fliers.
- They are vulnerable to poison spam.
- They fold to melee

So this for me would point to some eldar units. And significant synergies with the Dark Kin.
- Shoot and scoot ScatBikes should be able to out range SMS and stay out of LOS.
- Seer-council.... as youve found.
- Lots of psychery. Shrieks etc.
- WraithKnight Melee with psychic buffs to get him across the table.
- Hemlock Wraith fighter causing fear tests (theory... maybe not so good though)
- Dark Eldar allies allow three important buffs that you should consider.
- LOTS of poison.
- Non scatter deepstrike
- open topped deepstriking transports.
DScythe wraith guard in raiders. Drop 2 on same turn... they HAVE to be killed before they shoot or Tau lose. This allows you to dictate the cadence of the game starting turn 2 and allows you to get that WK across the board.

 doktor_g wrote:
Well, Im trying to get into Taudar. My current lists are geared to handle the Warp Spider spam, which I would think that as youve mentioned SMS will hurt these short ranged jumpers. Ripple Firing RipTide Wing would ERASE them methinks.

Tau have several weakneses that I am trying to mitigate in my own lists.
- They depend on synergies (ie AOE buffs, markers, characters)
- They have limited low AP access in their most competitive units (BurstWing, MissileSides, StormSurge)
- They have low leadership.
- They have no psychic Footprint.
- They have no competitive fliers.
- They are vulnerable to poison spam.
- They fold to melee

So this for me would point to some eldar units. And significant synergies with the Dark Kin.
- Shoot and scoot ScatBikes should be able to out range SMS and stay out of LOS.
- Seer-council.... as youve found.
- Lots of psychery. Shrieks etc.
- WraithKnight Melee with psychic buffs to get him across the table.
- Dark Eldar allies allow three important buffs that you should consider.
- LOTS of poison.
- Non scatter deepstrike
- open topped deepstriking transports.
DScythe wraith guard in raiders. Drop 2 on same turn... they HAVE to be killed before they shoot or Tau lose. This allows you to dictate the cadence of the game starting turn 2 and allows you to get that WK across the board.

Thanks G! Great points,

So to compile them

Aim for buff units first such as Etherals, Markerlights, Dark Strikers etc - assassinating these characters with barrage units, massed S6 instant death and psykic powers. Focusing on leadership based attacks

Wraithknight for melee threat and table coverage, in my current meta GMC's and Superheavies are discouraged (2 VP's awatded for every 2 wounds/HPs caused) so I may not follow through with that advice, but great for others in my position!.

Deepstriking D flamers in Raiders from a portal maybe a powerful addition, at that point I may include an Autarch for reserve manipulation and maybe some accompanying Swooping hawks for company?

JSJ mechanics on the Scatterbikes are great but rely on LOS blocking terrain, a luxury that I cannot guarantee at my club (I'm working on it) , but good advice all the same

MSU lists that Tau cannot focus fire on, kinda the opposite of the Seerstar but certainly more compelling

Mostly thats what im thinking about. Keeping the scythes in the raider allows them to be intercepted (boom) and still shoot after passing pinning. WWP isnt entirely necessary.

Splinter cannons are really good vs RipTides

MSU are ok, but the important thing is hiding and staying out of range.

You said GCs and superheavies are discouraged... so opponents arent taking stormsurges? And discouraged means your meta (points system penalizes you) or your bros think youre a douche if you do. The former is much less problematic. If its the first option, the WK will make up those VPs. If its considered ungentlemanly... well thats quite another thing.

Swooping hawks are the guys with haywire? Not sure they will help much.

If the Tau player doesn't have a stormsurge, then he will struggle to reliably kill a wraithknight. Heavy burst cannon Riptides only wound it on a 6 and ghostkeels need 5s. If I was you, I would take a farseer to buff the knight (either invis or fortune are good) and run it straight at them. Str 10 outright kills a Ghostkeel, so they will fall over like a wet paper towel in close combat, even to the shooty knight. To properly stomp a riptide, you can just win and sweep it, but TBH I prefer the stabby wraithknight over all other variants, even the skatach. This is in no small part because he has an invulnerable save as well, essentially doubling his durability vs AP 2 and 3, which he sees a lot of

Your target priority is pretty spot on. Kill the markerlights first and then whatever is the biggest threat to your army. Remember that once the markerlights are gone, cover saves are a thing again. And by then, you should have stomped the ghostkeels into oblivion with your wraithknight. I would probably even take 2 Farseers to ensure that you get the powers you need to keep it alive (or at least to make it more likely)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh two more things:

1) believe it or not, Tau can be handicapped by range on turn 1. There will always be 24" in between you and him at minimum, so if he deploys as far up as possible, he should be able to hit your back table edge (for dawn of war deployment) but if you move to the side, he can't. With smart deployment, you can make sure that the riptide and the ghostkeels can't hit you at all on turn 1, unless they're the ion accelerator version. Same goes for the markerlights. They have the same range as the Riptides. Deploy out of their range and it's as good as them not being on the board for a turn. This is even easier in vanguard strike and hammer and anvil. In short, you want to go second. Especially with Eldar. Jetbike last turn objective grabs OP

2) you can also use range somewhat to mitigate interceptor. Though he probably has some decent range, hornets do too IIRC. Just don't bring them within 24" of the ghostkeels. Ever. This is easy to do if your wraithknight is making them backpedal super fast.

Is Cloudstrike an option?

Dropping 3 falcons full of fire dragons seems quite... toasty.

I'm going to try a few games with it soon (less competitive to be fair).

zerosignal wrote:
Is Cloudstrike an option?

Dropping 3 falcons full of fire dragons seems quite... toasty.

I'm going to try a few games with it soon (less competitive to be fair).

well as long as the dragons stay in the transport for the turn when they come in to avoid interceptor...maybe?