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I was playing a 2v1 game where a situation arised. Here's the units:

ig squad
ig command squad
tau breacher team
devilfish.

the ig squad and command squads wants to charge the tau breacher team. however, in the ig squad there's a meltagun that wants to shoot at the devilfish. Now usually there's a sergeant wearing a plasmapistol in the same squad but he blew himself up the previous turn. The command squad orders the ig squad to split fire. The test is passed and the ig squad can now be allowed to shoot at two diffrent targets. The squad designates the tau breacher team and the devilfish, putting the meltagun to shot the devilfish. However, the commander (me) is a fool. He's forgotten that the plasmapistol is no longer available and thus does not have two weapons that can shoot and charge anymore. Normally the meltagun would have shot the devilfish and the plasmapistol would have shot the breacher team, the squad would then charge the breacher team with the command squad. So here's the question: Can you in in this situation shot the devilfish with the meltagun and still charge the breacher team without firing at it? Obviously if the lasguns are fired the squad cannot charge.

When this happened I resolved it simply by shooting the lasguns ignoring further rule quarell. We where pressed for time, felt uncreative and couldn't be bothered with digging through the rulebook. However this could definetly be used in various situations. If you, for instance, have a flamer you could splitfire just the flamer at a squad and then charge a veichle with frag grenades, or just do what I did and fire melta weaponry on walkers/tanks and charge infantry despite not having fired a shot at them?

Even with splitfire rules you must charge at a unit you targeted during the shooting phase.

But as friendly advice be wary guardsmen and sarges, also carry Frag grenades and you are allowed to throw a single one per shooting phase since it's an assault weapon that may let you bypass the charge restriction of firing at something.

Lord Perversor wrote:
Even with splitfire rules you must charge at a unit you targeted during the shooting phase.

But as friendly advice be wary guardsmen and sarges, also carry Frag grenades and you are allowed to throw a single one per shooting phase since it's an assault weapon that may let you bypass the charge restriction of firing at something.

Good idea. Frag grenades pretty much solves the issue.

Your unit targeted the breacher team, the model with the melta gun targeted the fish. You can charge the breachers without actually firing at them.

The reason goes back to the first part if the first sentence: your unit targeted, but did not actually shoot the breachers.

It would be the same as if a unit only had pistols with a 6" range and targeted a unit that was 7" away; you do not have to actually shoot anything that you target in the shooting phase(it is generally pointless to bother declaring the shooting target if you are not going to shoot it outside of this specific scenario or to try and force a jink).

You were following all the correct rules and using good tactics.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Your unit targeted the breacher team, the model with the melta gun targeted the fish. You can charge the breachers without actually firing at them.

The reason goes back to the first part if the first sentence: your unit targeted, but did not actually shoot the breachers.

It would be the same as if a unit only had pistols with a 6" range and targeted a unit that was 7" away; you do not have to actually shoot anything that you target in the shooting phase(it is generally pointless to bother declaring the shooting target if you are not going to shoot it outside of this specific scenario or to try and force a jink).

You were following all the correct rules and using good tactics.

Is it targeted if there is no Weapon chosen or attempted to fire?

Yes, step 2 of the shooting procedure is selecting the unit's target.

Step 3 and beyond is the process of actually shooting.

So if you select a unit as a shooting target(say a fast skimmer) and your opponent Jinks, but you only have a single lascannon/melta with which to really threaten it; then you are free to simply not shoot. In this case the skimmer has still declared the Jink because your unit targeted it, but no models fired at it.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Yes, step 2 of the shooting procedure is selecting the unit's target.

Step 3 and beyond is the process of actually shooting.

So if you select a unit as a shooting target(say a fast skimmer) and your opponent Jinks, but you only have a single lascannon/melta with which to really threaten it; then you are free to simply not shoot. In this case the skimmer has still declared the Jink because your unit targeted it, but no models fired at it.

I am unfamiliar with the option to opt out between Step 2 and Step 3. The closest I can find is a situation where all of the models must Snap Fire, but none of their Weapons in range CAN Snap Fire. And even that is smelling of shenanigans.

In addition, the rest of the unit must resolve their Attacks as well. Permission is not granted to NOT shoot with the rest of the unit.

I never said to opt out between step 2 and step 3.

Step 3 select a weapon: "A player may choose not to fire with certain models if he prefers."

So select any weapon, choose not to fire any models. Choose not to select any additional weapons.

Your unit has targeted but not actually fired following all rules and allowances.

And in the specific case of split fire as with our OP here: he has selected the breachers as the unit's target, and the fish as the melta guns target; he is more than free to fire the melta(steps 3-6), then simply decide not to fire any additional weapons.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
I never said to opt out between step 2 and step 3.

Step 3 select a weapon: "A player may choose not to fire with certain models if he prefers."

So select any weapon, choose not to fire any models. Choose not to select any additional weapons.

Your unit has targeted but not actually fired following all rules and allowances.

And in the specific case of split fire as with our OP here: he has selected the breachers as the unit's target, and the fish as the melta guns target; he is more than free to fire the melta(steps 3-6), then simply decide not to fire any additional weapons.

It's not much of a Shooting Attack if no one Shoots. So if the Attack is never made, it never resolves. If it never resolves, you are failing to perform the remaining portion of the Split Fire rule.

I'm with Kommissar on this one. It seems pretty clear that you are not forced to shoot with any models during the shooting sequence.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Your unit targeted the breacher team, the model with the melta gun targeted the fish. You can charge the breachers without actually firing at them.

The reason goes back to the first part if the first sentence: your unit targeted, but did not actually shoot the breachers.

It would be the same as if a unit only had pistols with a 6" range and targeted a unit that was 7" away; you do not have to actually shoot anything that you target in the shooting phase(it is generally pointless to bother declaring the shooting target if you are not going to shoot it outside of this specific scenario or to try and force a jink).

You were following all the correct rules and using good tactics.

I would have difficulty seeing how they "targeted" the breachers unless they actually fired at them too. It seems like it's just a way of having your cake and eating it ("my bloke with the meltagun has got a chance of destroying your tank so I'm gonna shoot with him, but if the others shoot they can't charge so they're not gonna shoot, they're 'targeting' you instead"). I would say that if you target something in the Shooting phase, you have to shoot at it with something. If you don't shoot at a unit, and in fact fire at another unit, you should charge the unit you fired at. If you don't fire anything at a unit, you haven't 'targeted' it.

If you're 'targeting' a unit for a charge, wouldn't that be declared in the movement phase? So targeting for shooting and targeting for charging are entirely different things declared at different points.

Same with the assault phase. You can't just say "My Guardsmen are targeting your Fire Warriors" then just leave the Guardsmen standing around, without charging, so you can shoot with them next turn...

Okay then poet, imagine my lone marine with a melta gun declares your warp spider as a target of a shooting attack, and then you flickerjump away. Now if you are out of range I can't shoot you, but I did target you right? If you agree, then how is this any different?

MrJog wrote:
Okay then poet, imagine my lone marine with a melta gun declares your warp spider as a target of a shooting attack, and then you flickerjump away. Now if you are out of range I can't shoot you, but I did target you right? If you agree, then how is this any different?

To be fair, outside of a very few cases, if you are out of range/LoS to Shoot them, you won't be able to Charge them.

And another thing I should point out, Targetting alone does not prevent the unit from being selected again to make another Shooting Attempt (though, not in the case of Split Fire).

Being outside of range/LoS to charge is not the point. The point is they were targeted.

And why do you think you get to re-target with a unit that lost range or LoS to flickerjump?

So I dont have the codex on hand but off the top of my head. Dont orders specify that the unit must immediately fire upon the targeted squad? So wouldn't you have to shoot in the instance of an IG order issued?

MrJog wrote:
Being outside of range/LoS to charge is not the point. The point is they were targeted.

And why do you think you get to re-target with a unit that lost range or LoS to flickerjump?

Read the qualification for Step 1 on the initial overview.

I'm not sure what the protocol would be for a unit targeting someone who then moves away. However that would be an entirely different situation as the targeted unit has a special ability to relocate itself before it can be fired on. I'd assume the Guardsmen would blink in shock, curse the alien witchcraft and then redirect the fire at one of the ten other alien squads who are still actually there. They'd most likely already know that the eldar had a bag of tricks and would be too busy fighting for their lives not to shoot at someone.

EDIT: Astartes would be even more likely to grunt and switch fire to a different target, given their superior training, experience and reactions.

 Charistoph wrote:

MrJog wrote:
Being outside of range/LoS to charge is not the point. The point is they were targeted.

And why do you think you get to re-target with a unit that lost range or LoS to flickerjump?

Read the qualification for Step 1 on the initial overview.

Please elaborate.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 NoPoet wrote:
I'm not sure what the protocol would be for a unit targeting someone who then moves away. However that would be an entirely different situation as the targeted unit has a special ability to relocate itself before it can be fired on. I'd assume the Guardsmen would blink in shock, curse the alien witchcraft and then redirect the fire at one of the ten other alien squads who are still actually there. They'd most likely already know that the eldar had a bag of tricks and would be too busy fighting for their lives not to shoot at someone.

EDIT: Astartes would be even more likely to grunt and switch fire to a different target, given their superior training, experience and reactions.

It is a different situation. I would question your definition of the word entirely though. The situation demonstrates how a unit can be declared a target without being fired upon.

The game has a rule system. If your way of playing the game is to rationalize what would make sense to you rather than attempting to follow the book, that is fine. But it's not necessarily correct by the book.

Flickerjumps rules specify that the unit who originally targeted the Warp spiders before the Flickerjump can't target anything else.

"The firing unit cannot choose a different target, even if the target unit is now out of range or line of sight"

Also notice how the rules clearly consider the act of target the Warp spiders equal to firing at it.


Also there is some rules that point that Targeting and shooting it's pretty much the same like Jink as example or even the Split fire rule wich says also says

"Once this shooting attack has been resolved, resolve the shooting attacks made by the rest of the unit"

Refusing to resolve further shoots because you are not firing, it's no different than just firing at the 1st unit and not split firing.

Since when is shoot synonymous with resolve?

MrJog wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

MrJog wrote:
Being outside of range/LoS to charge is not the point. The point is they were targeted.

And why do you think you get to re-target with a unit that lost range or LoS to flickerjump?

Read the qualification for Step 1 on the initial overview.

Please elaborate.

This was before Lord Pervesor's post I should point out, but for completion's sake:

Nominate Unit to Shoot. Choose one of your units that is able to shoot but has yet to do so this turn.

A unit which has not made an equivalent attempt to Roll To-Hit has not actually shot. If they do not shoot, but selected a target, they may go back and reselect one.

I should note that the unit has shot in the case of Split Fire's first model, and not the rest of the team.

Lord Perversor wrote:Flickerjumps rules specify that the unit who originally targeted the Warp spiders before the Flickerjump can't target anything else.

"The firing unit cannot choose a different target, even if the target unit is now out of range or line of sight"

Also notice how the rules clearly consider the act of target the Warp spiders equal to firing at it.

I was not aware of this. This doesn't necessarily global equation of targetting=firing, though. It just prevents the same unit from retargetting and shooting again. So if a Heavy Bolter was targetted at them, and it lost LoS, they did not fire a Heavy Weapon so would be free to Charge, if another member still had LoS and only Assault/Pistols were actually shot.

Lord Perversor wrote:Also there is some rules that point that Targeting and shooting it's pretty much the same like Jink as example or

Um... No. Jinking does not cause your targeter to have been considered to have Shot. They still have to Roll To Hit (or the weapon's equivalent) in order to have actually shot.

Lord Perversor wrote:even the Split fire rule wich says also says

"Once this shooting attack has been resolved, resolve the shooting attacks made by the rest of the unit"

No association with targeting counting as shooting is stated here.

Lord Perversor wrote:Refusing to resolve further shoots because you are not firing, it's no different than just firing at the 1st unit and not split firing.

Pretty much. Except in the case of Split Fire, the unit has not targeted the unit.

MrJog wrote: Since when is shoot synonymous with resolve?

It is when you are talking about resolving a Shooting Attack. Resolve isn't used in the Shooting Sequence until the To Hit rolls (or equivalent) are made.

So you are trying to tell people you can get your opponent to jink and then choose to target a different unit because you never fired?

And no there is no text telling us that resolving all shots is the same as firing all shots. That just isn't true.

i Just brought Jink as a similarity with targeting = shooting, just to draw a specific example.

forcing someone to Jink because i target their unit, then not resolving it (because i choose not to) and later trying to force my oponnent to snap fire with their jinking unit because he said it was jinking, despite no shoots fired at it just by saying i target it seems to lead to a not pleasant discussion on the gaming table.

Lord Perversor wrote:
i Just brought Jink as a similarity with targeting = shooting, just to draw a specific example.

forcing someone to Jink because i target their unit, then not resolving it (because i choose not to) and later trying to force my oponnent to snap fire with their jinking unit because he said it was jinking, despite no shoots fired at it just by saying i target it seems to lead to a not pleasant discussion on the gaming table.

The rules count Targeting as the initial component of generating a Shooting Attack, but actual "shooting" does not occur until the equivalent of Rolling To Hit is made. Indeed, under Check Range, we have "Which Models Can Fire?" which states, "Any model that has line of sight to at least one enemy model in the target unit and is found to be in range of that model can shoot." So, actual shooting hasn't happened until after you have Selected a Weapon, which is after you Choose a Target.

As for Jink, it only has to be declared before the Rolls To Hit are made, and so can be made after Weapons are Selected, at which point, we do not have permission to change Targets.

 Charistoph wrote:

Lord Perversor wrote:
i Just brought Jink as a similarity with targeting = shooting, just to draw a specific example.

forcing someone to Jink because i target their unit, then not resolving it (because i choose not to) and later trying to force my oponnent to snap fire with their jinking unit because he said it was jinking, despite no shoots fired at it just by saying i target it seems to lead to a not pleasant discussion on the gaming table.

The rules count Targeting as the initial component of generating a Shooting Attack, but actual "shooting" does not occur until the equivalent of Rolling To Hit is made. Indeed, under Check Range, we have "Which Models Can Fire?" which states, "Any model that has line of sight to at least one enemy model in the target unit and is found to be in range of that model can shoot." So, actual shooting hasn't happened until after you have Selected a Weapon, which is after you Choose a Target.

As for Jink, it only has to be declared before the Rolls To Hit are made, and so can be made after Weapons are Selected, at which point, we do not have permission to change Targets.

So according to you I can use my two man squad with a Las Cannon and a Missle Launcher to make each of my opponents two skimmers jink?

MrJog wrote:
So according to you I can use my two man squad with a Las Cannon and a Missle Launcher to make each of my opponents two skimmers jink?

Not quite. You indicate you have selected a Target by Selecting a Weapon. At this point, you do not have time to choose another target.

Only in a case where you literally cannot shoot at your chosen target after selecting a Weapon (and nothing prevents you from changing targets) would this be possible.

 Charistoph wrote:

MrJog wrote:
So according to you I can use my two man squad with a Las Cannon and a Missle Launcher to make each of my opponents two skimmers jink?

Not quite. You indicate you have selected a Target by Selecting a Weapon. At this point, you do not have time to choose another target.

Only in a case where you literally cannot shoot at your chosen target after selecting a Weapon (and nothing prevents you from changing targets) would this be possible.

The shooting sequence does not read like that.

The Shooting Sequence

1. Nominate Unit to Shoot. Choose one of your units that is able to shoot but
has yet to do so this turn.

2. Choose a Target. The unit can shoot at an enemy unit that it can see.

3. Select a Weapon. Select a weapon the firing unit is equipped with. All models
equipped with a weapon with the same name can now shoot that weapon at the
target. Every model that wishes to shoot must be within range of at least one
visible model in the target unit. Models that cannot see the target, or are not in
range, cannot shoot.

You indicate that you have selected a target on step two, not on step three. So the guardsmen select the breacher team. They then use their split fire to shoot the melta at the devilfish, and resolve that. Next, they select their lasguns, choose to fire none of them, making it very easy to resolve steps 4 through 6. Then in the assault phase they can charge the breacher team.

MrJog wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

MrJog wrote:
So according to you I can use my two man squad with a Las Cannon and a Missle Launcher to make each of my opponents two skimmers jink?

Not quite. You indicate you have selected a Target by Selecting a Weapon. At this point, you do not have time to choose another target.

Only in a case where you literally cannot shoot at your chosen target after selecting a Weapon (and nothing prevents you from changing targets) would this be possible.

The shooting sequence does not read like that.

The Shooting Sequence

1. Nominate Unit to Shoot. Choose one of your units that is able to shoot but
has yet to do so this turn.

2. Choose a Target. The unit can shoot at an enemy unit that it can see.

3. Select a Weapon. Select a weapon the firing unit is equipped with. All models
equipped with a weapon with the same name can now shoot that weapon at the
target. Every model that wishes to shoot must be within range of at least one
visible model in the target unit. Models that cannot see the target, or are not in
range, cannot shoot.

You indicate that you have selected a target on step two, not on step three.

And in Step 2, you are free to change the target up to the point you move to the next step, Step 3. I'm sorry if you understood Step 3 as "Select a Target", but it it was more that showing you are finished Selecting a Target by starting to Select a Weapon, like indicating you were done with the Movement Phase by determining Warp Charges for your Psychic Phase.

MrJog wrote:
So the guardsmen select the breacher team. They then use their split fire to shoot the melta at the devilfish, and resolve that. Next, they select their lasguns, choose to fire none of them, making it very easy to resolve steps 4 through 6. Then in the assault phase they can charge the breacher team.

But you didn't resolve anything if you did not Roll To Hit. Review the Shooting Sequence and the word "resolve" is not used at any point before dice rolling is indicated.

Furthermore, if you do not shoot, you did not resolve any shooting. If you do not resolve any shooting, you did not follow the instructions for the second portion of Split Fire.

you can't charge a squad you didn't shoot at, or if you rapid fire

 Space Yak wrote:
you can't charge a squad you didn't shoot at...

Actually you can charge a unit you didn't shoot at, if you didn't shoot at all.