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Some questions regarding the smash special rule. I play guards and plan to use a few priests with the smash buff but after reading the rules I have a few questions:

A smash attack is made at half your atk characteristics. Is this affected by two weapons, charge bonus and weapons that increase your str (like poweraxe or powerfist)?

Does an Unwiedly weapon make you use the smash attack at Initinative 1?

Is "half" your attacks rounded up or down? A priest with close combat weapon and laspistol get 3 attacks, making it 1.5. Does that mean it's 1 or 2 attacks with smash?

Thanks in advance.

A Smash attack is a single attack, not half.

INdeed. 7th edition changed smash

Divide and conquer tells you how to deal with fractions - early on, basic concepts.

While smash is now a single attack, weapons that add strength do affect it.

For example, a priest (S3) who smashes becomes S6 (smash doubles strength). If he has a power maul (+2s), he then becomes S8. And smash also makes it AP2.

So, a priest with a power maul who smashes has a single S8, AP2 attack at I3. He also would get to reroll vehicle armor penetrating hits (but not wounds). Not too shabby.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Slightly off topic, but do priests have to use their own leadership for their battle hymns, or can they use the highest leadership in the unit? It always seemed a little silly that a priest uses someone else's leadership for their own prayers, but that is RAW, I believe.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
While smash is now a single attack, weapons that add strength do affect it.

For example, a priest (S3) who smashes becomes S6 (smash doubles strength). If he has a power maul (+2s), he then becomes S8. And smash also makes it AP2.

So, a priest with a power maul who smashes has a single S8, AP2 attack at I3. He also would get to reroll vehicle armor penetrating hits (but not wounds). Not too shabby.

No, it does not. It is double the "model's strength". Weapons are not mentioned as being used whatsoever.

So you dont have to use a melee weapon any longer, even though you have one?

Kap - the moel has to take the test using their own ld, this changed in 7th when they made a distinction between a unit taking the test and a model,.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
So you dont have to use a melee weapon any longer, even though you have one?

A Smash Attack is not noted as using the Weapon at all, nor is it considered a normal Melee Attack, at least in 7th Edition.

Does it have to be a "normal" melee attack for you to be allowed to use a melee weapon? What rule *denies* the use of the melee weapon, explicitly?

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Does it have to be a "normal" melee attack for you to be allowed to use a melee weapon? What rule *denies* the use of the melee weapon, explicitly?

What part of the Smash Attack rule includes the melee weapon, explicitly?

Is Smash a close combat attack?

If so it includes a melee weapon by definition, unless excluded.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Is Smash a close combat attack?

If so it includes a melee weapon by definition, unless excluded.

It is described as an attack, so yes it is a Close combat attack.

"when [a model with this special rule] makes its close combat attacks, it can choose instead to make a single Smash Attack." (Special Rules Chapter, Smash section).

If it is a close combat attack, you may (in fact HAVE?) to use a melee weapon.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Is Smash a close combat attack?

If so it includes a melee weapon by definition, unless excluded.

Like Stomp? Hammer of Wrath?

Where is the requirement that a close combat attack includes a melee weapon by definition?

Please show it is excluded. I have permission to use a mere weapon when making attacks in the close combat phase. Show smash denies this.

That has been my understanding of how smash and +Str weapons work, and it makes sense to me, at least.

Chari's examples of stomp and HoW I don't think are a good comparison, as stomp has very specific, unique rules, and HoW specifically says that no other modifiers can affect it.

But, if you smash, all that happens is you swap all your attacks for a single attack at double the models strength.

I can't think of a reason he cannot use equipped weapons, nor can I find anything that says he can't.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Please show it is excluded. I have permission to use a mere weapon when making attacks in the close combat phase. Show smash denies this.

By relying on the model's Strength. Nothing about including the Attack's Strength, just the Model's. The Weapon is not included in this statement.

So, unless using a Weapon is required base for all Close Combat Attacks, I'll just follow what it tells me to do.

Kap'n Krump wrote:That has been my understanding of how smash and +Str weapons work, and it makes sense to me, at least.

Chari's examples of stomp and HoW I don't think are a good comparison, as stomp has very specific, unique rules, and HoW specifically says that no other modifiers can affect it.

But, if you smash, all that happens is you swap all your attacks for a single attack at double the models strength.

I can't think of a reason he cannot use equipped weapons, nor can I find anything that says he can't.

HoW doesn't say anything about modifiers, just Special Rules. Stomp Attacks as well do not state anything about not including Special Rules.

So, to include Weapons in to a Smash Attack, they would be included in Hammer of Wrath, where not specifically excluded.

Hammer of wrath, quoth the rulebook (emphasis mine):

"If a model with this special rule ends its charge move in base or hull contact with one or more enemy models, it
makes one additional attack that hits automatically and is resolved at the model’s unmodified Strength with AP-. This
attack does not benefit from any of the model’s special rules (such as Furious Charge, Rending etc.). This attack is
resolved during the Fight sub-phase at the Initiative 10 step, but does not grant the model an additional Pile In
move."

HoW clearly states that the attack is resolved the models unmodified strength - and melee weapons are a type of modifier, so they are not allowed. It also says no special rules may benefit HoW attacks. But HoW is uniquely restrictive.

Smash says only, quote "resolve the Attack at double the model’s Strength", but doesn't make mention of any other types of modifiers, such as weapons or special rules.

Because the smash rule doesn't exclude modifiers (like HoW does), I can't see why they wouldn't be allowed.

I mean, are special rules applicable to smash attacks? Shred, hatred, preferred enemy, furious charge, etc?

I only play orks, so this entire argument is kinda foreign to me as nothing I has the smash special rule, so I'm genuinely asking. I believe that special rules may modify smash attacks, but I'm not certain.

If special rules are allowed to modify smash attacks, I don't see why other modifiers (such as weapons) wouldn't.

KapnCrunch... bad boy.... Squigoth should have Smash. Haha! I win the internet today!

Also at thread, Smash says its resolved at AP 2 "unless it's attacking with an AP1 weapon" problem solved...

So if I am using a daemon weapon and roll a 1 with a smash attack, would I take a wound and have my ws reduced to 1 as well?

Dunno, but if thats your only melee weapon, it would appear so. Also... love your handle (alien life form). Youre a true child of the 80s. Much respect.

Kap'n Krump wrote:Hammer of wrath, quoth the rulebook (emphasis mine):

"If a model with this special rule ends its charge move in base or hull contact with one or more enemy models, it makes one additional attack that hits automatically and is resolved at the model’s unmodified Strength with AP-. This attack does not benefit from any of the model’s special rules (such as Furious Charge, Rending etc.). This attack is resolved during the Fight sub-phase at the Initiative 10 step, but does not grant the model an additional Pile In move."

Sure for Strength, but what about Set Value Initiative modifiers that are inflicted upon the model?

Kap'n Krump wrote:HoW clearly states that the attack is resolved the models unmodified strength - and melee weapons are a type of modifier, so they are not allowed. It also says no special rules may benefit HoW attacks. But HoW is uniquely restrictive.

Smash says only, quote "resolve the Attack at double the model’s Strength", but doesn't make mention of any other types of modifiers, such as weapons or special rules.

Because the smash rule doesn't exclude modifiers (like HoW does), I can't see why they wouldn't be allowed.

I mean, are special rules applicable to smash attacks? Shred, hatred, preferred enemy, furious charge, etc?

I only play orks, so this entire argument is kinda foreign to me as nothing I has the smash special rule, so I'm genuinely asking. I believe that special rules may modify smash attacks, but I'm not certain.

If special rules are allowed to modify smash attacks, I don't see why other modifiers (such as weapons) wouldn't.

The thing is that just because it aren't told tot exclude it doesn't necessarily mean that we actually do automatically include it.

doktor_g wrote:Also at thread, Smash says its resolved at AP 2 "unless it's attacking with an AP1 weapon" problem solved...

Um... That is for all Attacks and right at the beginning. The information on the Smash Attack is later, so this doesn't necessarily translate to "this indicates Smash Attacks use Weapons".

Again: deny me permission to use a melee weapon

I HAVE permission to use a Melee weapon in CC, in general

SHow SPECIFIC denial of this ability. And we know it must be specific, otherwise the game breaaks everytime they do not mention absolutely eveything that is still included...

@Charistoph: I see your point. The exchange portion of the rule is a seperate sentence. I guess it boils down to how you interpret the ruleset as a whole as Nosferatu is arguing. I'd go with the flow though... HIWPI.

If YOU had an AP1 weapon, would you still resolve it a AP2?

 Charistoph wrote:

The thing is that just because it aren't told tot exclude it doesn't necessarily mean that we actually do automatically include it.
.

But the reverse is actually true. We are told to include it and Smash does not tell us to exclude it.

 Charistoph wrote:


Sure for Strength, but what about Set Value Initiative modifiers that are inflicted upon the model?

I honestly don't understand the question, nor how it pertains to the debate of whether or not melee weapons can apply to smash attacks.

And like fragile said, there is no stated restriction on using melee weapons, or other modifiers, with smash attacks - consequently there is no reason they cannot modify their attack.

Is there any other rules circumstance in which a model is disallowed from modifying its attacks (with either weapons or special rules) without being specifically forbidden from doing so?

nosferatu1001 wrote:Again: deny me permission to use a melee weapon

I HAVE permission to use a Melee weapon in CC, in general

SHow SPECIFIC denial of this ability. And we know it must be specific, otherwise the game breaaks everytime they do not mention absolutely eveything that is still included...

I told you, you use the model's Strength. You replace all Attacks with this. It isn't just Doubling Str of the Attack while losing all but one.

Fragile wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

The thing is that just because it aren't told tot exclude it doesn't necessarily mean that we actually do automatically include it.
.

But the reverse is actually true. We are told to include it and Smash does not tell us to exclude it.

You're going to need a good and proper quote that I am to automatically required to include the Weapon. Stomp is the same way. Sure, it has its own rules, but so does Smash. Stomp provides a set Str and AP for the Attack that doesn't automatically Remove. So does Smash. Smash uses the Model's Str and has AP: 2.

Nerak wrote:
Some questions regarding the smash special rule. I play guards and plan to use a few priests with the smash buff but after reading the rules I have a few questions:

A smash attack is made at half your atk characteristics. Is this affected by two weapons, charge bonus and weapons that increase your str (like poweraxe or powerfist)?

Does an Unwiedly weapon make you use the smash attack at Initinative 1?

Is "half" your attacks rounded up or down? A priest with close combat weapon and laspistol get 3 attacks, making it 1.5. Does that mean it's 1 or 2 attacks with smash?

Thanks in advance.

Old smash from 6th edition was half. 7th edition smash is a single attack at x2 str and you get 2d6 for armor pen. If you choose to use a weapon with that that is unwiedly, then you would be I 1. For example, a priest with power axe that smash attack would be 1 attack at str 7 ap 2. (3x2+1=7)

 Glitcha wrote:
Old smash from 6th edition was half. 7th edition smash is a single attack at x2 str and you get 2d6 for armor pen. If you choose to use a weapon with that that is unwiedly, then you would be I 1. For example, a priest with power axe that smash attack would be 1 attack at str 7 ap 2. (3x2+1=7)

You do not get 2d6 for armor pen from Smash.

It does allow a re-reoll of the Armor Pen rolls though.

 Charistoph wrote:
You're going to need a good and proper quote that I am to automatically required to include the Weapon.

Because the rules are written assuming everyone is using a weapon to attack with. that is why there is a rule about a model that does not have a CCW acts as if he does have a CCW.

Here are some quotes showing the attacks are made using a weapon.

"If the weapon’s Strength is ‘User’, then attacks made with that weapon are resolved at the wielder’s Strength value."(Weapons Chapter, Weapon Profiles Section, Strength sub-section).


"Weapons with the Melee type can only be used in close combat." (Weapons Chapter, Weapon Profiles Section, Melee Type sub-section).

And of course if a model has more than one weapon, he must choose which to attack with. Showing that normally you have to use a CCW to make attacks.

"If a model has more than one Melee weapon, he must choose which one to attack with when he comes to strike blows" (Weapons Chapter, More Than One Weapon Section).

Stomp is the same way. Sure, it has its own rules, but so does Smash. Stomp provides a set Str and AP for the Attack that doesn't automatically Remove. So does Smash. Smash uses the Model's Str and has AP: 2.

Stomp is different and should not be compared to Smash.

 Glitcha wrote:

Old smash from 6th edition was half. 7th edition smash is a single attack at x2 str and you get 2d6 for armor pen.

No, you don't get Armourbane equivalent with it, just an Armour Penetration reroll.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:

Slightly off topic, but do priests have to use their own leadership for their battle hymns, or can they use the highest leadership in the unit? It always seemed a little silly that a priest uses someone else's leadership for their own prayers, but that is RAW, I believe.

Under Leadership Tests:
"A model or unit might be valled upon to take a Ld test.... Roll 2D6 and compare the result to the model's Ld.... If a unit has to take a Ld test, [blah blah blah]."

Does the priest's special rule call for the unit to take a test, or for the model? Because the rulebook makes a clear distinction between when units have to do it, and when models have to do it.
It's just much more common for units to be required to take a test. It's rarer for specific models to do it, but it happens...like in the case of the =][= priest.