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Hey guys,
I've been chatting to Roberto Chaudon...
It seems there's been a change of heart at ol' mierce town, and he's not being given any more work...
There are a dozen or so items that have no assigned sculptor, so it's not for lack of work.
Personally, i think Roberto is a master sculptor, who also produces work quickly and to a very high standard. His Kthones are vastly superior (IMHO) to Bennoit's, for example.
I think it's more than Rob's alluded to "expense", Dan Cockersell is expensive too, but he gets commissions.

Just want to see what you guys think...I'm a little aggrieved that Mierce have dropped such a fine talent.

Well, let's hope that Roberto gets some of those "no sculptors assigned" works.
AS per the KS update:

"UNKNOWN: We don't know who'll be doing Selkilias, Thuulac, the Scuttling Núcranca or Scethæn yet."

ROBERTO!

LoL

 Alpharius wrote:
Agreed - More Roberto is A Very Good Thing!

From the comments section:

Mierce Miniatures 14-time creator about 6 hours ago

@Yxalitis - Even if I decided never to give Roberto anything ever again, which I am sorely tempted to do just to annoy you, that is my choice as, of course, I commission the sculpts. Roberto doesn't decide if he gets a commission from us - I do.

Well I left it at that on the KS.

It's Rob's choice who to give commissions to, just as it's my choice whose miniatures I buy.
Roberto is a perfect example of the quality sculptors whose work I am happy to pay Mierce's top-shelf prices for.

I'm not a gamer, I don't HAVE To buy an army that fits in with the ruleset, so I pick and choose based solely on the quality of the sculpt.
But as long as the backers with deep pockets pick up anything and everything, I guess I cans ee Rob's point, business is business.

I just don't want to see a gradual slide down in quality when the financial returns start to outweigh the artistry and passion that started the endeavour.
I'm, not saying that's happening here, or happening yet, but we only have to look at what has happened before, Rackham, and of course GW.

Once I see that the higher quality sculptoirs are getting less work "because they are expensive" I start to worry.

That's it in a nutshell.

I have the mammoth, it is awesome.
Not too fond of that paint job though...
It's technically brilliant of course, nor the color choices...
Tusks are too dark, fur too light, skin too pink.
Just my 2c...

Yer, the rules are very clunky, I can't see how this would be an enjoyable game to play, you'd spend so long arguing over rules...
lucky I just paint minis, so matter not to me

 Wehrkind wrote:
I keep thinking that one of these days, or month, or years, when I have some extra time, I am going to go through the rulebook and rewrite it. The rules are not bad exactly, but the layout and organization of the rules and their very atomized structure makes it sort of a pain to read through. I love rule books generally, collecting them for games I don't even play (and likely never will). Every time I read the Mierce book's organization, with subheadings that go down 3-4 levels frequently, it makes me cringe a bit. I have written massive business design documents that were less complicated.

The rules are deliciously crunchy and detailed, however, don't get me wrong. They just need a much better editor for the book, and probably someone to streamline things a bit, as there are a lot of rules that seem to do the same thing.

This is very true, the style of writing is not conducive to easy comprehension.

The entire rule book was available as a PDF before the printed version was published, that's now been withdrawn. According to Rob, that's because he "has books to sell"
I think that's a mistake, the money is in the minis, giving away a PDF version only gets the word out easier and to more people.

 skullking wrote:

 highlord tamburlaine wrote:
Now that you mention concept art, we haven't seen much out of Danny Cruz for a while either. I always liked his stuff.

Yeah, I agree. I love Roberto's work for sure, but Danny was what I really consider to be the art style that shaped the Darklands line.

Yep, Mierce seemed t have dropped some very good sculptors recently.
I was in conversation with Roberto, he was not treated well by Mierce, according to him, tehy jsut pulled sculpts from him.
I queried Rob, he said "well, he is expensive"
Umm, so are Mierce Minis, we pay top dollar for quality.

However, my concern is that this Kickstarter is a symptom of an underlying problem.

After his boardgame KS failure last year, and the promise of "no more kickstarters for a long time" we immedaitely got another little kickstarter.
Now we have this one...a scant month later...WTF is going on why are these minis so damned important we need more and mroe kcikstarters, each one pushes out the completion date further and further, they are nearly a year overdue already.

Given the obvious fact that these minis won't be produced for at least 6 months, why not wait until then to launch the kickstarter? The delivery date wo't change?
...what's the advantage of getting digital sculpts completed now.

Why, was Bob asked to do new scukpts, instead of working through the considerable backlog of stuff stretching as far as Savage Hordes?
Was this wolf resculp urgent?
What's the urgency., close out a few of the long long outstanding old Kickstarters first...

My fear is that Mierce is using these kickstarters to pay the bills...

IF Mierce are using kickstarters to pay for the day to day operating costs of the business, that is VERY BAD NEWS.

Most of the money from each kickstarter should be banked to pay for the production of mins paid for IN THAT KICKSTARTER...NOT to pay wages and rent now.

That's a catastrophe waiting to happen...they are basically putting off debt into the future, and each new kickstarter adds to that...if THIS kickstarter is paying the bills, what will pay for the production costs of the minis? Another kickstarter later on...?

That is my underlying concern, it's not "Where are my minis" it's "is the company using kickstarters to run day to day?"

Rob shows the rabid fanbase some shiny new minis fresh off Bob's PC, and they throw cash at him, never mindng that these minis won't see the light of day for at least a year.

Bob doing these NOW tells me Rob needs this kickstarter to keep the lights on.

That's not good.

I queried him in the comments, and his response didn't alleviate my concerns.

Thoughts?

Skullking, (I won't quote that huge post again...)

If you don't understanfd basic busines, let me explain.

Running a business using a kickstarter NOW to pay the bills, keeps the loghts on, means that money is consumed.
The £10,000 or whatever, is gone, used to pay wages, rent, bills etc.

But when we pledge for XXX and YYY minis with our money NOW, we expect that money to be used for that purpose.

So in 6 months time, what money is there to fund the production of the minins we paid for?

Answer....none, it was spent 6 months ago.

Unless Mierce is selling a buttfuck olf minis outside their Kickstarters, which from the number of deeply discouted Mierce mins I've seen on 3rd party sellers, sites, isn't happening, they are having to run another kickstarter, to fund the production of minis from a previous kickstarter.

This result in a debt spiral, as each time they do this they are putting off the debt by more and more.

It's like a Ponzi scheme (only not deliberate fraud, let me make that clear)

So what happens if one of those KS fails?

Oops, suddenly Mierce have no money to both produce mins, and maintain the business.

Result: Mierce ceases trading, all outstanding orders are lost.

No to be very clear I am NOT saying this is the case 100%, but it sure seems that way.

And in case you weren't aware, this has already happened to the major players behind Mierce, when Maelstrom games folded.

http://ttfix.blogspot.com.au/2012/05/maelstrom-games-banelegion-blood-maw.html
Look familiar?

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2012/11/retailing-maelstrom-games-down-and-out.html
Sound familair?

So, whilst I admire your enthusiastic support of Mierce minis, I am merely expressing a concern regarding their underlying financial health.

Mierce is seemingly a company that is running on the backs a few hundred very loyal supporters.

This does not a good business make.

Pretty much this...
I of course have zero knowledge of Mierce finances.
This Kickstarter came out of nowhere, why the urgent need for resculpts?
If this had been: "Hey guys, we have a big backlog of 3D stuff we need to print, help us fund a printer to help out" I'd have been reassured that they were aware of the increasing delays, and acting to remediate.

Instead we got; "ooh, look, shiny new things, give us some money to fund them" despite the fact that with the current backlog, they aren't seeing the light of day for a long time.
I mean, without a printer, how are these getting competed?
Remember, they hired Bob, a 3D artist, full time, with no plan as to what you do with his output?
I mean, you hire a 3D artist, you plan a 3D printer purchase to produce the work, right?

 Gomezaddams wrote:
All completely valid points.

Lower funding/risk of failing - I get that. But other companies meet some of that with there own capital, and I don't think they have it... and at this stage they probably should.

There's very little activity about Mierce outside of this thread which given the number of sculpts, quality of the figures etc. Is surprising. How are they selling figures outside of Kickstarter is my question - especially with so many figures outstanding

Like I said, if love to be wrong. Let's come back in 12 months and see where things are at.

Oh yes, I want to get egg in my face and have people point out how wrong I was!

I have £130 tied up in store credit, andther £100 unspent from the Loads of Monstrs Deal and another £150 in infinished orders!
I WANT TO BE WRONG!

But some of those minis were funded nearly 2 years ago:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/mierceminiatures/darklands-mighty-monsters/posts/1571514

Thuulac, the giant crab, was beautifully rendered by Bob a yeat ago,
At this stage, they do not have a means to produce him!
I asked mid last year, and Rob replied that to print Thuulac and Brebeca would cost £1600, which is 10% of the cost of a printer itself

Given this; why on Earth have we not simply been asked to help fund the printer itself...??

My feeling is that the Kickstarter is indeed being used to raise money to keep the business going, having one for a 3D printer would require Rob to actually spend all the money on one!

God I hope I'm totally wrong, and that by June all the sculpts fron Mighty Monsters part one and two will be completed and shipped!



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Samko wrote:

yxalitis wrote:
they are nearly a year overdue already.

nearly a year overdue ?


I backed New Kindreds in 2014 and I'm still waiting for magma svrill and helmed ophios, that 2.5 years overdue !
I'm never backing mierce again for anything that's not already released.

And some kickstartes never deliver anything...we should not let these set the starndard for completion however.
The first few Mierce kickstarters got everything out the door in around 18 months, and those were mammoth £100,000 plus projects
Given that Mierce have now run 19! kickstarters, they shouild be very sure how to deliver on time.
New Kindreds was funded in Septmber 2014, and still has one outstanding sculpt.

http://www.kicktraq.com/projects/mierceminiatures/darklands-starter-hosts-ii/

This one is going to fail...a kickstarter for resculpts was a bad idea IMO, resculpts...now, with that backlog?

Stupid thing is these could have been offered as part of a 3D printer KS, would have been perfect in that situation.

 Yodhrin wrote:
Wait, hold up a second - the Blight Beasts are based on the smaller versions of Morannach, but have been released before the base models? Does that mean the proper ones will be out sometime soon then?

Yep, I thought that was odd too.

They have gotten a lot of goods out the door over the past few years, that's for sure, and their range of minis is now HUGE.
But their website is terrible, and finding anything is very hard, having unspellable, unpronounceable names for everything doesn't help.
Back in the Maelstrom Games days they had fantastic photos of each mini including a scale for size, and closeups :




How informative is that?

Now they have just one photo!

I suggested that a site revamp would help, but they have no time for that...

 Monkeysloth wrote:

 RiTides wrote:

yxalitis wrote:
Thuulac, the giant crab, was beautifully rendered by Bob a yeat ago,
At this stage, they do not have a means to produce him!
I asked mid last year, and Rob replied that to print Thuulac and Brebeca would cost £1600, which is 10% of the cost of a printer itself

Wow, I didn't realize that - but this is my concern with so many digital sculpts. Very affordable to render, but costly to print the masters so that they can be cast...

$20k for a 3d printer? What are they looking at getting a power based one or a carbon STL? A good resin printer for prototyping is about $5k and that included support contacts and upgrades.

Well, I'm no expert in professional 3D printers, but that did strike me as high when i read it...
I asked them what brand and type they were looking at, and was told to mind my business (in as many words)

Also, £800 to print this:

Does seem high...but, again, i don't know enough to be definitive.
But even so, that's silly, why not print the basic one, cast it off, and get the barnacles and starfish attached separately with good old fashioed resin, and recast?
And at £60, they'd pay the cost in a couple of dozen orders.

skarsol wrote:

yxalitis wrote:

I suggested that a site revamp would help, but they have no time for that...

I offered to assist them with the performance aspect of their site in exchange for resin and got ghosted.

But really, if they're a KS company, and the majority of their sales come from KS, why bother with a fancy website? People are buying your stuff site unseen as is.

Because you need a sustainable market outside the kickstarter community...as few as 200 people support the entire company, that's not enough!
They need to get out there and attract buyers to purchase the stuff that the KS made possible, NOT just toss one kickstarter after another to create 100's of minis that not enough people are buying.

Having a really attractive, easy to use website helps.

 skullking wrote:

On a different note. What do you feel Mierce needs to do to right themselves (assuming you are correct in regards to them needing help), and get back on course? However, please take into account all the things I mentioned that they ARE doing in my last post.

I have already answered your first question, although of course that's my opinion, I've run a small business, but not in retail.

 skullking wrote:

Most of the money from each kickstarter should be banked to pay for the production of mins paid for IN THAT KICKSTARTER...NOT to pay wages and rent now.
So how SHOULD they pay the employee wages? Not trying to sound mocking by asking, I am curious what alternate means of getting money you believe they should follow. They have lots of sales, and have added at least 100 new models to their online retail store in the last year. They go to cons to sell figures, they hold tournaments. Tim (a payroll employee/company head) even does conversions which are sold in the shop, and, are timed well with what is popular in other game systems (in fact, all I'm getting in this current KS is stuff I didn't get in previous ones, and some of Tim's new blight figs (which look awesome!)). What else is there?

The KS is there to fund the sculpt, pay for the artist to make the pretty picture, pay for the sculptor to sculpt it, and pay for the actual mini to be molded and shipped to each backer.
The day to day running costs of the business have to be funded solely from sales outside the KS, otherwise the business is not tenable, that's the hard truth of business.

 skullking wrote:

Roberto 688176 9794712 wrote:

 skullking wrote:

Yep, Mierce seemed t have dropped some very good sculptors recently.

I don't think anyone was dropped, they just have an in house sculptor for a lot of the stuff they're doing now. So they can more cost effectively get through that backlog of figures. There's nothing stopping them from using any of the old sculptors again, unless they work for someone else (like Aragorn).
I was in conversation with Roberto, he was not treated well by Mierce, according to him, tehy jsut pulled sculpts from him.
I queried Rob, he said "well, he is expensive"
Umm, so are Mierce Minis, we pay top dollar for quality.
So... Rob asked if he could do them cheaper, Roberto declined. So Rob found another way, that was cheaper. #runningabusiness

Hello skullking, Roberto Chaudon here, can you tell me where did you get this info? The line that says I declined a Rob offer please. Thanks!

Hey Roberto!

Apologies if this statement is false. I was however just presenting an example based on what Yx had quoted Rob as having said, and his conversation with you. I should have cited it as such, which is totally my bad.

Also, when Yx quoted HighLord Tamberlaine and my conversation in his post here.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/1410/688176.page#9793449

We were actually talking about Roberto Cirillo, an illustrator who works with Mierce. He however was unable to do drawings for them, due to him being hired full time by another company.

Nope, i was talking about Roberto Chaudon, the sculptor, not an illustrator.

"Yep, Mierce seemed t have dropped some very good sculptors recently."

I can see the confusion, however. #Toomanyrobertos

http://www.kicktraq.com/projects/mierceminiatures/darklands-starter-hosts-ii/
My God they make actually make this one...that's some mad keen backers there, they added £1,000 overnight.

I am not a gamer, I only paint minis, so the rules are of no interest to me, BUT I thought keeping them as a free PDF download would help spread the word, after all, Mierce aren't going to become a successful business just selong the rulebook!

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
they're available as a pdf on the mierce website both the main rules and the initial quick-start version

http://mierce-miniatures.com/index.php?act=drm

You need to click the "download" link for the rulebook...it takes you here:

http://mierce-miniatures.com/index.php?act=pro&pre=mrm_dkl_bok_rul_001_000_hbk

No PDF for the full rules I'm sorry


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 skullking wrote:

But I'm also a bit scarred by the depth of the rules

That's an appropriate misspelling!

Yeah...the minis are awesome, but I do agree they have dropped off a bit in quality.
Thankfully the current KS looks like it will make it after all..that's good...let's see what they do about that 3D printer now they have even more digital sculpts.
The funny thing is..for the small saving you get by purchasing in the KS, you can just wait for the inevitable 25% off sale, and buy the minis your want for immediate delivery for much the same.
Kind of defeats the purpose...but, Lo, another 120 purple have propped up Mierce for a little longer, ordering minis they ain't gonna see for a year or so...

 Boss Salvage wrote:

Update #5

Aug 24 2017

£12,500 - Crushers, Krokokh Unit

The stretch goals are coming thick and fast... when we get to £12,500, you'll get the Crushers, Krokokh Unit!



The Crushers are enormous, incredibly powerful creatures of scale and tooth and claw and an anvil upon which enemy armies are crushed. Comprising two new warriors - Srann the champion and Vultta - to complement the awesome, already sculpted Aggrakk, the Crushers is a fantastic addition to any Khthones host!

You can pledge for the two new ones if you already have Aggrakk, or you can pledge for all three of them as a unit, or even Aggrakk on his own!

Increase your pledge by £100 ($130) to purchase three Krokokha; £70 ($91) to purchase two Krokokha; or £36 ($47) to purchase a single Krokokh.

I recently bought Aggrakk for KOW purposes, then stumbled on this image of his two bros while googlin' croc minis (as one does). I noticed there are at least a couple Mierce KS with late pledges that would get me these lads, should I go with the latest one? Which I think is https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/mierceminiatures/darklands-savage-hordes-iv?ref=profile_created ? June seems far away but gives me time to get the rest of the army up to speed to welcomethe big'uns

- Salvage

These guys are OK, but I don't like their soft, rounded teeth, Roberto (Chaudon's) Srok is a much, much, MUCH better sculpt, these are pretty basic.

Have you guys looked over this?

http://www.kicktraq.com/projects/mierceminiatures/darklands-starter-hosts-ii/#chart-daily
I mean, look at that jump:



What happened on the 22nd to cause a MASSIVE £2,500 increase in pledges?
This, BTW from only 8 backers!

There was no new update, no stretch goal revealed, yet BOOM, suddenly we go from "this aint gonna get funded" to, "OK, we'll just make it now"

Seems odd

This was the worst performing Darklands Kickstarter that Mierce has run, it really only just scraped through,

Hopefully that sends a message.

 zedmeister wrote:
48 hour notifcation

Sorry, 8 backers dropped £2.600 because of that?

Yet in the comments not a soul is chatting about the pledge amounts, or anything realted to it, so these backers were also anonymous?

 skullking wrote:

 zedmeister wrote:
48 hour notifcation

Yup, Look at almost every KS out there. The last 48 is the biggest jump.

I looked, and I can't see any that have such a massive spike from so few backers.

Remember, most of these backers have backed a lot of Mierce projects, and a lot of the comments were along the lines of "I'm tapped out" "Here's £100, but that 's my limit etc.
Look at that graph:



Compared to:


That's not just a normal last minute pledge rush...which, by the way, is usually from lurkers.

That's an average of £325 from 8 people, none of whom were chatting in the forum about the kickstarter looking like ti would miss the target, nothing...

It just looks way out statistically...

 skullking wrote:
Yx - I don't know what exactly you're trying to insinuate here, but I can't help but feel you're trying to find things that aren't there. The majority of KS start with a boost the first day, lag in the middle, and then boost again at the end.

You're in this KS, why not just post and ask there?

Oh, OK, if you think that surge is normal, I'll hush my mouth.

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
Actually Mierce KS are one of the few set up so a last minute splurge from existing backers is a real possibility,

it's not as if there's a fixed buffet of stuff to pick from like a big CMON box game where there's a realistic limit unless people start buying duplicates,

there's an absolutely massive back catalogue of stuff you can pick up via the KS, and most of the existing backer know it (and probably have a fairly significant list of stuff they'd like but have yet to afford)

So given that and the happy community atmosphere it's all to easy to say, go on I can stretch for just one more host, just one big monster, just one unit of humans, i'm going to get them eventually anyway, if I toss the money in during the KS i'll get a better deal and i'll help out the group




Automatically Appended Next Post:
(well that's how it goes for me when I've got money to spend, an initial buy in for what I hope unlocks, some money added as more stuff unlocks or intermediate stretch goals are revealed, and then a dollop of cash at the end when I try and decide if I can push my budget for the next month or two)

I didn't think they offered the %off existing stock this time, I musta missed that.

 highlord tamburlaine wrote:
Wouldn't you basically need two of the 80mm guys for a KoW block?

Srokk surprisingly left me feeling a little flat. Loved the big guy though.
My new favorite has been Golgogg. I'm curious to see what the new armored Fomoriac Ograx are going to turn out like.

Speaking of which, weren't the Ograx reivers supposed to have been finished, or getting close to it? Gotta turn that store credit into resin!

There is a bucket load of stuff from SH III that has not even been started yet...

http://www.mierce-miniatures.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=728

SH3 does appear to be the kickstarter that time forgot, with 8 months from successful funding, to the first release, Xet, who jumped the queue of backlogged minis.
Since then, just the bears have appeared, and not a sodding thing else.

This is what gets my goat, that was funded Sept 2016...it is now 2018, and the vast majority of minis have not even been sculpted!
Yet here we have some resculpts getting done...*sigh

 Monkeysloth wrote:
Ya, my policy is if there's a figure I really want in the campaign wait until it's about to ship then buy it. Recently though with all the 25% off sales there's not much reason to even pledge and worry if it will ever deliver as it will be on sale shortly after release.

My thoughts exactly!

The KS "discount" is based off the mythical RRP, which is discounted 5% in the store anyway...

Great Axe Malacant was £45 KS price, is £60 (but really £57) Store price, so a 25% discount makes him £45 anyway (Discounts apply to the full RRP)

You may miss out when the model comes in larger than intended, and price increases, i.e. Xet was £40, but increased to £70, a HUGE increase.

But for the most part, just go "ooh, and "Ahh, and wait for the release date, the amount of interest you lose on a £500 pledge over 2 years...well, it's not insignificant.

"Oh, but if you don't pledge it won't get unlocked"

Riight, cos Mierce never run a "part deux" to unlock the leftovers...

Hey, I backed a lot of Mierce kickstarters, but with the 18 month delay, i won't anymore...not until i see that backlog massively reduced.

Can get some bargains i you look around too:
https://www.coolminiornot.com/shop/miniatures/mierce-miniatures
https://www.gamekastle.com/online/index.php?skip=0&m=list&v=745&filters=stat:Yes,

 Alpharius wrote:
The CMON Shop link only has one item in stock!

https://www.coolminiornot.com/shop/miniatures/mierce-miniatures/gynroch-ap-roch-wocor-of-powys-1.html

The Game Kastle link is much more impressive, and has quite a bit listed as 'in stock' - definitely worth checking out - thanks!

Yes, but it's half price!

CMON clearly aren't restocking after having to clear out the stock at such a discount!

Looking over the minis and prices...and comparing to other brands in the market...they really are too expensive...

I think Mierce needed to stick to a few dozen awesome minis., and build a skirmish game around those, rather than the absolute hundreds of minis they have in their lineup.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 skullking wrote:
Crap! Game Kastle's got every game/company under the sun, and most on discount! Too bad they're in CA, I hate paying those in state taxes. Can't believe I'd never heard of them. Great find Yx!

Make sure it's not "pre order"

 highlord tamburlaine wrote:
Shh! Stop talking about Game Kastle!

I'm secretly trying to loot and pillage all their sale stuff before you all can get to it!

Game Kastle absorbed FRP into it. FRP were great for getting ridiculous discounts.

I got a 20 dollar LOTR war mammoth from them.

The GW one? Ugh
Maatmag is way better, and another mini that jumped the queue.
But $20, that's amazing

http://www.coolminiornot.com/417123