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In light of my previous recommendations on Space Marines and Eldar, I thought I would try my hand at balancing the orks.

This...

...might take a while. :(

1. Meks should have S 4.
2. Big Mek (and the mega armor variant) has S and T 5.
3. Big Mek with mega armor costs 70 points.
4. Boss Zagstruk has S and T 6.
5. Grukk Face Rippa has S and T 6 and costs 120 points.
6. Captain Badrukk has S and T 5 and costs 100 points.
7. Mad Dok gains S and T 6 and costs 140 points.
8. Pain Boy has S and T 5 and costs 40 points.
9. Warboss (and mega armor variant) has S and T 6.
10. Warboss costs 50 points.
11. Weirdboy has S and T 5.
12. Boss Snikrot has S and T 6 and 3 wounds.
13. Burna boys have S 4.
14. Kommandos have S 4.
15. Meganobs have S and T 5.
16. Nobs have S and T 5 and cost 16 ppm.
17. Srak's Skull Nobs have S and T 5.
18. Tankbustas have S 4.
19. Boys have S 4.
20. Gretchin have S and T 3.
21. Rustgob's Runts have S and T 3, except Rusgob, who has S and T 4. The unit is 40 points.
22. Zhadsnark's warbikers are now 20 ppm and have S 4.

More in the next posting.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Next round:

1. Deffkoptas gain sluggas to their wargear and have S 4. They cost 27 ppm.
2. Stormboys have S 4 and cost 9 ppm.
3. Warbikers gain S 4 and cost 20 ppm.
4. Flash Gits have S and T 5. They further gain sluggas to their wargear.
5. Lootas gain S 4 and cost 10 ppm.
6. Mekk Guns cost 16 points for the unit.

Further installment next posting!



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Last round of alterations:

Ghazkull gains S and T 7 and gains the Monstrous Creature model type.

Mobrules:

If your unit contains more than 10 models, you gain +1 leadership. If more than 20 models, +2 leadership.

Boss pole: Counts as a close combat weapon. It also confers the ability "Crackin Skulls!" special rule to the character bearing it.

Crackin Skulls!: If you fail a leadership test, make another leadership test against the LD score of the model wielding the boss poll. If the test is passed, he deals attacks with the boss pole to the models in the unit that failed the leadership test (other than the model bearing the boss poll) equal to the number of attacks that he could normally deal in close combat. Saves may be taken as normal. After wounds are resolved, reroll the leadership test. If the test is passed with double 1s, the unit gains fearless for the remainder of the game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Finally, I propose the formation WAAAAAAAAGH!

All models in the WAAAAAAGH! gain the rage and hatred special rules

Must include:

At least one selection from the HQ, core and auxiillary choices:

HQ:

At least one warboss (including Ghazghkull)
At least one, but no more than 3, HQs who isn't a warboss or a weirdboy

Confers: An HQ with a boss poll may whack the ever loving snot out of any unit who fails an LD test within 12 inches, including a unit that failed an LD test from another crackin skulls test! No HQ may crack the skulls of any more than 1 unit in a given phase.

Core:

10 units of boys.

Confers: Free trukks for the boys (upgrades must be purchased as normal)

Auxillary:

Option 1: 3 units of bikes.
Option 2: 3 units of vehicles (including walkers and squiggoth)
Option 3: 5 units of mek guns
Option 4: 3 units of something not covered by options 1, 2 or 3.

Confers: Either +1 BS or +1 WS to all units in the auxillary

Auxillary v. 2:

Weirdboy Conclave:

3-5 wierdboys.

Confers: On each psychic phase, select a psychic table and roll powers from that table (for use that phase only). On each psychic phase, you must select a psychic table from which you hadn't selected the previous psychic phase and roll new powers. Any psychic tables in the game (including eldar and librarius psychic tables) may be used. Powers may not be rolled from any given table more than twice per game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Last thing:

If 5 ork weirdboys are taken in the conclave, they gain the special rule:

Anime Randomness:

If the weirdboys in the conclave should suffer a perils of the warp, roll 1d6.

On a 1-5, roll from the perils table as normal.
On a 6, ignore perils and roll an additional 1d6.

On a result of 6, perform an attack of the following statline:

Attack: Kamehameha wave
S 10, Ap 1. 72 inch range. Beam. Ordnance. Ignores Cover. Armor Bane. Flesh Bane. Instant Death. Any vehicle that loses a hullpoint due to the Kamehameha wave automatically explodes 12 inches. Ignores invulnerable saves. Ignores reanimation protocols. Any model which ignores instant death automatically loses 1 billion hull points and/or wounds. Reroll failures to pen or wound.

The kamehameha wave shall be resolved at BS 10.

You forgot to fix the orks abysmal Vehicles IE

Trukk
Battlewagons
Looted Wagonz
DakkaJet
Burna Bomma
Blitz Bomma
Killer Kanz
Deff Dredz
Morkanaut
Gorkanaut
Stompa
Buggies

Not to mention not addressing the piss poor shooting options orks have. IE Lootas with their S7 Ap4 Deff Gunz that fire D3 shots. D2+1 would be better or D3+3 to really make it worth taking (10 lootas with D3+3 would average 5 shots each for 50 shots, around 16-17 hits and 14-15 wounds against anything less then T6)

Or fixing the gear issues like the useless "Git Finda" which makes it impossible to field with anything.

Or the wonderful thing that is Ghazghkuul Thraka T7 would definitely help as would MC, but the big thing he needs is some form of invul save that isnt a once a game affair.

Also fix Cybork body, KFF, MFF, KMK, KMBs, Nobz, Meganobz.

Just to name a few things that need help in the Ork Codex.

Did you like the suggestions I did make?

Not that there's anything particularly wrong with what you've suggested (I may not be the best one to comment on this since I don't play Orks and don't have the current codex), but the fact that SemperMortis can list so much that you've not included suggests to me that you might want to sit down with the codex, suss out everything, rethink what you've suggested and open it up to the community to suggest fixes, additions, removals and general changes.

Your proposal would be much more convincing if you actually took some time to explain why you favor these particular changes instead of just presenting a list of point costs and expecting us to figure it out.

D3+3 shots on Lootas would be insane, they're fine the way they are. 1+D2 sounds reasonable to reduce randomness though.

Honestly, I don't think all of the S and T buffs are necessary. Most of the issues with Orks would be fixed by fixing the walker rules, giving mobs more options for S8 or higher and good AP weapons, and reinstating the double Initiative bonus on the charge.

 insaniak wrote:
Honestly, I don't think all of the S and T buffs are necessary. Most of the issues with Orks would be fixed by fixing the walker rules, giving mobs more options for S8 or higher and good AP weapons, and reinstating the double Initiative bonus on the charge.

From what I've seen in Ork games as well as the little I know of their codex, I can agree with this. Though all these Strength and Toughness buffs aren't the most important fixes that can be made, they could definitely be done in such a way that would align the strength of the Orks with that of the fluff.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
D3+3 shots on Lootas would be insane, they're fine the way they are. 1+D2 sounds reasonable to reduce randomness though.

D3 shots is fine. D2 + 1 won't be OP but makes them slightly more powerful than they need to be. And I agree: D3 + 3 shots is absolutely insane. For a full 15-man squad, that's 45 - 90 shots at S7 AP4. No thanks!

Honestly, compared to a lot of the Ork reworks/klan roolz done on the WAAAGH! forum and even just by others on this sub-forum the rules clearly feel slapped on and lack an inherent understanding and passion for Orks. While Orks do get bigger and stronger as they grow in size, that's not the defining trait of the Ork codex. The fact that you've left out a whole bunch of Ork vehicles untouched or addressed any wargear issues (or lack thereof, the PK is pretty much the only CC weapon Ork armies use consistently) shows you don't intimately know the issues of the Ork codex.

Vankraken's recent thread is a good showing of both explanation and revision of Orks as whole. And no offense Traditio but given your very limited POV with armies being built on what you think marines should be makes any rules writing on your part lacks the Orkiness that I think an Ork revision needs, not just a flat power boost.

 IllumiNini wrote:

 insaniak wrote:
Honestly, I don't think all of the S and T buffs are necessary. Most of the issues with Orks would be fixed by fixing the walker rules, giving mobs more options for S8 or higher and good AP weapons, and reinstating the double Initiative bonus on the charge.

From what I've seen in Ork games as well as the little I know of their codex, I can agree with this. Though all these Strength and Toughness buffs aren't the most important fixes that can be made, they could definitely be done in such a way that would align the strength of the Orks with that of the fluff.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
D3+3 shots on Lootas would be insane, they're fine the way they are. 1+D2 sounds reasonable to reduce randomness though.

D3 shots is fine. D2 + 1 won't be OP but makes them slightly more powerful than they need to be. And I agree: D3 + 3 shots is absolutely insane. For a full 15-man squad, that's 45 - 90 shots at S7 AP4. No thanks!

D3+3 is amazing because it finally (in my opinion) makes Lootas feel the way they should.

BTW if you do roll that 5 or 6 for the D3 and get 6 shots PER guy, For 15 lootas thats 90 shots as you said. Of those 90 shots 30 will hit. S7 AP4 is pretty wicked, so yeah that is a bit much, but D3 is garbage because 15 lootas = 15, 30 or 45 shots at BS 2 meaning 5, 10 or 15 hits respectively. And for the price you pay for these guys, they don't last much longer then turn 2. Anything with ignores cover utterly destroys them in seconds. So if your only going to get 1-2 shots off a game, i say go big

Maybe D3+1 to make it more kosher for everyone (4 shots = 6 shots (20 hits))

Grimskul wrote:Honestly, compared to a lot of the Ork reworks/klan roolz done on the WAAAGH! forum and even just by others on this sub-forum the rules clearly feel slapped on and lack an inherent understanding and passion for Orks. While Orks do get bigger and stronger as they grow in size, that's not the defining trait of the Ork codex. The fact that you've left out a whole bunch of Ork vehicles untouched or addressed any wargear issues (or lack thereof, the PK is pretty much the only CC weapon Ork armies use consistently).

Vankraken's recent thread is a good showing of both explanation and revision of Orks as whole. And no offense Traditio but given your very limited POV with armies being built on what you think marines should be makes any rules writing on your part lacks the Orkiness that I think an Ork revision needs, not just a flat power boost.

I think you've summed it up pretty well.

SemperMortis wrote:D3+3 is amazing because it finally (in my opinion) makes Lootas feel the way they should.

BTW if you do roll that 5 or 6 for the D3 and get 6 shots PER guy, For 15 lootas thats 90 shots as you said. Of those 90 shots 30 will hit. S7 AP4 is pretty wicked, so yeah that is a bit much, but D3 is garbage because 15 lootas = 15, 30 or 45 shots at BS 2 meaning 5, 10 or 15 hits respectively. And for the price you pay for these guys, they don't last much longer then turn 2. Anything with ignores cover utterly destroys them in seconds. So if your only going to get 1-2 shots off a game, i say go big

Whenever I've played against an Ork player with Lootas, they tend to be very good at protecting them, meaning they survive until at least turn 3 and shred through my army. D3 + 3 Shots is too powerful. If they were S3 or S4 instead of S7, then D3 + 3 MAY work, but I'm still iffy on that many shots.

SemperMortis wrote:Maybe D3+1 to make it more kosher for everyone (4 shots = 6 shots (20 hits))

That sounds more fair than D3 + 3 and definitely could work!

 IllumiNini wrote:

Grimskul wrote:Honestly, compared to a lot of the Ork reworks/klan roolz done on the WAAAGH! forum and even just by others on this sub-forum the rules clearly feel slapped on and lack an inherent understanding and passion for Orks. While Orks do get bigger and stronger as they grow in size, that's not the defining trait of the Ork codex. The fact that you've left out a whole bunch of Ork vehicles untouched or addressed any wargear issues (or lack thereof, the PK is pretty much the only CC weapon Ork armies use consistently).

Vankraken's recent thread is a good showing of both explanation and revision of Orks as whole. And no offense Traditio but given your very limited POV with armies being built on what you think marines should be makes any rules writing on your part lacks the Orkiness that I think an Ork revision needs, not just a flat power boost.

I think you've summed it up pretty well.

SemperMortis wrote:D3+3 is amazing because it finally (in my opinion) makes Lootas feel the way they should.

BTW if you do roll that 5 or 6 for the D3 and get 6 shots PER guy, For 15 lootas thats 90 shots as you said. Of those 90 shots 30 will hit. S7 AP4 is pretty wicked, so yeah that is a bit much, but D3 is garbage because 15 lootas = 15, 30 or 45 shots at BS 2 meaning 5, 10 or 15 hits respectively. And for the price you pay for these guys, they don't last much longer then turn 2. Anything with ignores cover utterly destroys them in seconds. So if your only going to get 1-2 shots off a game, i say go big

Whenever I've played against an Ork player with Lootas, they tend to be very good at protecting them, meaning they survive until at least turn 3 and shred through my army. D3 + 3 Shots is too powerful. If they were S3 or S4 instead of S7, then D3 + 3 MAY work, but I'm still iffy on that many shots.

SemperMortis wrote:Maybe D3+1 to make it more kosher for everyone (4 shots = 6 shots (20 hits))

That sounds more fair than D3 + 3 and definitely could work!

Here is the secret to kill lootaz, you ready? Shoot at them.

6+ Armor means they have to be in cover, and if they are in cover they are losing some LoS and if you hit them with a single well placed flamer its GG for them. Lootas can't take a nob so you have to upgrade one of them to a mek (loses his gun when you do this) otherwise you don't have a character, if you don't have a character and have to take a morale check you basically just failed it because if your taking a check you probably are under 10 models, without a character and your probably not in CC so BOOM you are now running away. GG For those lootas. They are incredibly fragile. So if Eldar get to take a S6Ap6 Bike that has jink and a 3+ save why can't I truly take a glass cannon squad of lootas that shoot 4-6 times in a single turn, and then die dramatically afterwards?

Haha yes I know. But playing a BT army with most weapons being 24" in range or less, outshooting Lootaz is a problem haha

Eh, SM can Deep Strike flamers in many different ways - even BT should be able to shut down Lootaz, if they need to. I agree that Lootaz should have more dakka, generally speaking. I could quibble about how much more, but yeah.

(Scatbikes, though, aren't a great justification for why. Even most Eldar players think those are OP.)

jade_angel wrote:
Eh, SM can Deep Strike flamers in many different ways - even BT should be able to shut down Lootaz, if they need to. I agree that Lootaz should have more dakka, generally speaking. I could quibble about how much more, but yeah.

I agree that BTs have the ability to shut down Lootaz (though I do't have the models to do it). And no, Lootaz don't need more dakka. Why? because they're 48" range.

Oh, I forgot about the 48" range, thought they were 36. Ok, fair point on that one.

 IllumiNini wrote:

jade_angel wrote:
Eh, SM can Deep Strike flamers in many different ways - even BT should be able to shut down Lootaz, if they need to. I agree that Lootaz should have more dakka, generally speaking. I could quibble about how much more, but yeah.

I agree that BTs have the ability to shut down Lootaz (though I do't have the models to do it). And no, Lootaz don't need more dakka. Why? because they're 48" range.

Yes they are in fact range 48, one of the few weapons in our codex with that range. But as I said, they need more dakka because who cares that they can shoot 48 if they die turn 1 or turn 2. on average a unit of 15 lootaz will fire 2 shots a turn for 30 shots, 10 hits, all at S7. In order to get those 15 lootaz though your paying 210pts. So in your opinion then 10 S7 hits with Ap4 on a unit with paper thin defenses and morale issues is worth 210pts.

I hate using Scatbikes as a comparison because they are in fact OP cheese, but keep in mind GW isn't going to reverse the arms race so I have to bring them up. a scatbike is 27pts I believe so about twice the cost. SO instead of 15 your going to get 8. Those 8 Scat Bikes can put out 32 shots at S6 AP6, with BS4 they are hitting about 21 times. The range is 36 but realistically it is more then that because they are relentless so they can move 12 and still fire so they have the same range as Lootaz, plus they have a 3+ save and a 4+ jink. So for the same points cost you can hit more then twice as many times but at S6 instead of S7. That is why I say Lootaz need more dakka.