Switch Theme:

Article Discussion: 7th Ed Ork Competitive Analysis  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in ca



This is an automated message added by the articles system.

A new article titled 7th Ed Ork Competitive Analysis has been added to the dakka articles system.

This message thread is for the discussion of content in the article.

If you have anything to add to the article, then just jump in and edit it by going to the actual article page and clicking 'edit' (the link can be found just above the article). If there is no edit link then the article is locked for now, so just add your comments or content to this thread and if they are appropriate then they should eventually get merged in.

If there is something in the article that you wish to debate or comment on, then this is the place to do it. Just hit the reply button and get chatting! You need to be registered and logged in to post in the forums so if you are an anonymous article editor then now would be a great time to register and join in dakka's great forum discussion!
   
Made in ca
Smokin' Skorcha Driver







HQ analysis is up. I expect the Elites portion will be ready tomorrow.

   
Made in ca
Krazed Killa Kan





Looks good so far. There are some slight issues with editing, you mention that the KFF is 12" range when its only 6" and the Painboy has 2W not 1 (though you are correct in terms of not making him the Warlord).

I do however disagree with some of the entries you put in. Mad Dok Grotsnik I'll agree is somewhat overpriced for what you get, but fearless is a very big thing in an Ork army now that we don't have access to the Big Bosspole from WAAAGH! Ghazghkull short of taking a very pricy formation from them (the Great WAAAGH! FOC detachment is gone with the recent update). Furthermore, rampage seems useless initially until you see the synergy he has with MANZ missiles. Fearless keeps Meganobz from failing pinning or morale checks given their small numbers and the very fact that they will often be outnumbered means they get the benefit of D3 extra attacks in combat! Throw in FNP from MDG as well and you have a very scary and surprisingly survivable unit that can maul anything it can reach.

I've also found that he's not a bad HQ slot filler in the cases where you need another Painboy but feel a boyz squad needs more oomph or an extra klaw. When taking an ork horde detachment or even just 2 CAD's he gives you the utility of a Painboy while giving extra CC prowess to a boyz squad (and helps deal with annoying challenge mongers) so you can use the extra HQ slot on something else. Grotsnik also makes depleted units of boyz more dangerous than usual thanks to rampage so they still hit hard after losing their numbers.

Other than that, you're pretty much spot on. Keep up the good work!

My milkshakes bring all the boys to the yard and they're like, hurr darry darr.


My suggestion to you is to get married, if you have a good wife you'll be happy, if you have a bad wife you'll become a philosopher. 
   
Made in ca
Smokin' Skorcha Driver







Thanks! I'll fix those errors.

WRT Mad Doc, I'd rather just take a second MANz missile. I run bullyboys myself, fearless comes standard. But I want the article to be comprehensive so I'll reformat it to include your tactica. I won't argue that it's not a scary unit, it is very scary, just a very pricey one. I did not consider his double use as a warboss/painboy for one HQ slot so I'll include that too. I'm thinking of expanding strategies to entries I listed as non-competitive, so Mad Doc might be a good place to start. I'll probably leave him as generally non-competitive, but put those strategies in as specialized. (He's not something you can just drop in where ever like a painboy or warboss.) I didn't originally intend to add strategies to non competitive entries, but then it wouldn't be a very comprehensive analysis would it! (Also, this way I can just list Boyz as non competitive like I originally wanted haha.)

If you or anyone else has any more suggestions, feel free to bring them up here, let me know where I went wrong.

Also, thanks insaniak for the pictures! Good stuff, if anybody has any more cool pictures feel free to toss them in.

I'll also be cleaning up the article as I go, I just don't want to interrupt my train of thought as I'm going. I still have a ton of ground to cover so it'll be a slow process.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/05/04 07:59:42


   
Made in ca
Smokin' Skorcha Driver







Elites and troops are up. I've also included builds for each entry as well. I've also formatted it to include a TOC.

The GW Facebook FAQ just dropped and there's some significant changes that I'm going to have to factor in. S&P no longer affects units embarked in transports so the Loota style dakka wagon is out, units have to have their majority under VSGs to gain it's protection, Tankbustas can not use multiple bombs in CC, and a few others. I'll get to that tonight probably.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/05/04 20:41:48


   
Made in us
Nasty Nob






Rewrite the tankbusta entry. You can only use one meltabomb in combat now.

Fang, son of Great Fang, the traitor we seek, The laws of the brethren say this: That only the king sees the crown of the gods, And he, the usurper, must die.
Mother earth is pregnant for the third time, for y'all have knocked her up. I have tasted the maggots in the mind of the universe, but I was not offended. For I knew I had to rise above it all, or drown in my own gak. 
   
Made in ca
Smokin' Skorcha Driver







Haha, yep, I was just kicking myself at the timing of having finished that hours before the FAQ dropped.

There's a few other ones that need to be re-wrote too.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/05/04 23:26:12


   
Made in us
Nasty Nob






Sounds like Killsaw stock (MANz) just went up >.<

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/05/04 23:27:43


Fang, son of Great Fang, the traitor we seek, The laws of the brethren say this: That only the king sees the crown of the gods, And he, the usurper, must die.
Mother earth is pregnant for the third time, for y'all have knocked her up. I have tasted the maggots in the mind of the universe, but I was not offended. For I knew I had to rise above it all, or drown in my own gak. 
   
Made in ca
Smokin' Skorcha Driver







Hidden Meks with killsaws could be a thing too. They're pricey though, I might have to play test that first. Burna boy meks can take killsaws too, I wonder if 3x killsaw would be worth it for the points cost.

So Big Meks, Meks, Tankbustas, MANz, Burnas, and Tankbustas are going to need some level of rewrites. Lemme know if you see anything else.

   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Saw a ork list almost win a tourament
Kustom Stompa,
Bikes
VSG

 
   
Made in ca
Smokin' Skorcha Driver







That's definitely one of the top builds. The cheap kustom stompa is really good and orks can do fast MSU obsec bike spam as well as anybody, including Eldar. Okay, maybe slightly less then Eldar but you get my point.

VSG just got nerfed hard in the new FAQ so we'll see how that goes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Re writes are done. Fast attack is next.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/05/05 10:50:51


   
Made in au
[MOD]
Cutting stuff up and bunging it back together in new and interesting ways.






Under the couch

 TedNugent wrote:
Rewrite the tankbusta entry. You can only use one meltabomb in combat now.

Given how much surprise that ruling has elicited from the community, I would hold off for the final draft of the FAQ before writing that one in stone.

   
Made in ca
Smokin' Skorcha Driver







If they change it back I'll rewrite it. What's another ten minutes when this things has already taken me hours?

Anyway, new entry is up on Trukks, and it's the longest one yet. Enjoy!

   
Made in ca
Blood-Raging Khorne Berserker





Ottawa, Canada

For a blob of 30 shoota boyz - I've stuck a Luck Stikk Mega armor boss infront of it with a painboy and nob for eating challenges and its done really well... its kind of anti meta since its immune to grav, 2+ reroll makes the Boss tank awesomely, while look out siring any other ap2 onto the boyz. I noticed you didn't mention this combo - any thoughts or still just fun to play/non competative.

Thanks!
   
Made in ca
Smokin' Skorcha Driver







Yeah, I didn't really go into it, but here's my thoughts:

They're really good vs infantry based armies, having the extra dakka means getting some hits in without having to worry about that gak I value of ours. Mass shootas will decimate anything with T3-4 and 5+ armour like AM infantry, non MC nids, other orks, certain eldar, etc. With 30 shootas firing 60 shots, you can expect an average of 14 unsaved wounds! It's just that those builds aren't really the competitive builds. Vs MEQs you can expect only 3 wounds and vs TEQs that's down to 1. Ouch. The Eldar in particular have a lot of AV 12, Warp spiders who can flickerjump out of the short range of the shootas, and high mobility jet bikes. The shoota does slightly offset the ork weakness to being charged, giving an doubly effective overwatch. They're still okay in combat, but being okay at shooting and combat doesn't really give them a defined role. They can be outshot by shooty units and beat up by CC units. Though the bonus WS should help. This does give them some degree of flexibility however, they synergize well with the age old ork strategy of shooting the choppy guys and chopping the shooty guys. As you mentioned it is very survivable against grav spam, which seems to be the 2nd most used competitive strategy in the game these days. It's still a good tarpit unit too, and the warboss does give it some kick. Obsec and the extra dakka make it great for holding mid field objectives. It gives you the ability to provide covering fire, unlike slugga boyz who would get shot to pieces if they were stuck sitting on a midfield objective for a turn. I'd wonder about going with a Big Mek in mega armour instead of the warboss? You can go with the kustom blasta or the DSS and some ammo runts to syngerize with the shootas. Or maybe even stick with the boss, go with a power klaw on the nob, and throw in a naked 15 point mek for the challenge eating? That would give it a little more punch in CC. Your tanking method is solid A+ grade competitive strategy, but there may be units that synergize better with it. Remember, he confers S&P to that unit so they can't run, and shootas are assault weapons so they don't really benefit from S&P like heavy or salvo weapons do. You could even throw a shokk attack gun in there with another IC who has mega armour for hilarity. It does look like a lot of fun! Any time I get to roll sixty dice I do it with a smile on my face. And repeating "dakkadakkadakka" like a crazy to myself of course. I'd give it a specialized rating. Very strong in places, great even, but very match up dependant. I'll have to playtest it myself sometime to confirm. Did I miss anything? I do want to be comprehensive.

I'll put it in the article either tonight or tomorrow. You got any cool pics of the unit? I could throw that in too. Anyway, thanks for the suggestion! I love when people bring up new ideas. I really do want this to be a compilation, so if you have any other thoughts let me know!

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2016/05/07 04:37:09


   
Made in ca
Blood-Raging Khorne Berserker





Ottawa, Canada

Hey thanks for the great reply! Here is a pic you can use. In mine I use 3 big shootas for even more xtra dakka.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
weird - pic looks sideways but if you click on it it goes the right way - maybe you can copy it and resave it to fix.

Thanks again!
[Thumb - 20160507_014309.jpg]

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/05/07 05:48:20


 
   
Made in us
Honored Helliarch on Hypex





Back in GA

Just starting (and struggling) to look at Orks so your article is perfect and I appreciate the time you are putting into it. First what is VSG? Secondly with the Chaos knights in renegades and the ally matrix I have seen people talking about taking a renegade knight in their Ork lists (appropriately or key up hehe). Do you see this as a valid tactic or is the Stompa still a better LOW choice?

I do what the voices in my wifes head say...
 
   
Made in ca
Smokin' Skorcha Driver







VSG is the Void Shield Generator from the 6th Ed stronghold assault supplement. Up until the new FAQ it was a common sight in any given competitive list, regardless of faction. Sometimes multiples. It works by projecting up to 3 AV 12 force fields on to unit's within 12". Footslogging horde lists made hay with it, the wording suggested any unit with a model within 12" meant the entire unit benefitted. A 30 model boyz squad or 100 model green tide could chain single models back to the VSG to give the entire unit its protection from across the board. The ork horde's greatest weakness is mass small arms fire, and the VSG basically made them totally immune to this, even S6 will have a hard time scratching it. With the new FAQ however, they clarified that a unit would have to be wholly within the 2" radius to benefit, if any models are outside that radius, the entire unit loses its protection. Unfortunately this totally eradicated the VSG + Horde strategy, and ork hordes as a whole as a viable competitive build. Shooting is just too powerful this edition. Speed freaks lists can also utilize the VSG, giving their AV10 transports much needed AV12 protection from enemy shooting if they were forced to go second, which is a typically a disaster for these types of lists. Speed freak VSGs are still effective luckily, it's pretty easy to place multiple trukks within its radius. It's not as good as it was however. Due to the original wording, the VSG was very effective at protecting from grav weapons, especially of the drop pod spam variety. Grav now works vs VSGs so that part has been compromised. Still, when used properly VSGs synergize incredibly well with Orks. Our biggest weakness is massed small arms fire, the VSG is totally immune to that.

Knights and Orks would be my guess for the next standard competitive Ork meta. They are much cheaper than stompas, have a better BS, and their weapons are deadly and reliable, unlike equivalent ork weaponry. The Avenger Gatling Gun for example, never runs out of ammo. Both have received a bit of a buff with the grenade nerf, making them basically untouchable in CC vs average infantry. I'd say they average out in CC. The Stompa does have ranged strength D weapons, which is a pretty big advantage. Unfortunately that terrible Ork BS limits it's potential and the ITC format which many tournaments run nerfed range D pretty hard. What the stompa definitely does have over the knight is survivability. 12 HP and the ability to carry around a unit of Meks to repair it or offer it an invulnerable save. This of course does jack up the price significantly so now we're talking about multiple knights, which may be the better overall option. Knights do have a invulnerable save standard of course. I'd have to say in general, a knight or multiple knights are probably more competitive than a Stompa. Horde Orks however may still find better synergy with the Stompa, as it provides fearless to units within 6", allowing large mobs of boys to chain back to it from a distance to benefit from that, like the old VDG strategy. This essentially bypasses LD checks and Mob Rule, which is a big deal. Speed freaks though are too fast and too small in size to pull this off, so it'd be knights all the way. E: Of course I'm talking about the Buzzgob kustom stompa here, just to clarify. The codex Stompa is just way too expensive.

I do plan doing an ork knight myself. I'm probably going to have to magnetize it because I desperately want a reaper chainsword in my army for the pure orkishness of it, but I'll probably roll double avengers in a competitive setting.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/05/07 15:41:56


   
Made in de
Regular Dakkanaut




u made a little error in the HQ section. a lukky stikk doesnt let you reroll FNP, cause its not a save.
   
Made in ca
Smokin' Skorcha Driver







I will fix that DLS/FNP error. I also have to fix Zhad's entry with the new changes to tank shock as well.

I do intend to continue with the article, but I'm taking a bit of a break. In the meantime, the article is too long to expand at this point so I'm going to have to split it into different sections. I'll have to think about how I want to handle the format. Thinking part one will be HQ+Troops+Elites, part two will be Fast Attack+Heavy Support+LOW, part three will be Wargear+Opponent tactica.

   
Made in us
Charging Orc Boar Boy





Reading this has made me sure I won't be jumping back into 40k again until things change for the Orks. I started playing at the beginning of 5th and it has been down hill for my poor Orks ever since... boyz non-competitive? What's the point?

Stikk bommas are special among ork society for one reason - They know when you pull the pin out of a stikk bomb you throw the bomb not the pin!
 
   
Made in us
Did Fulgrim Just Behead Ferrus?






X

rothrich wrote:
boyz non-competitive?


Exactly why are boyz non competitive, yet Grotz competetive? That's just wrong, man.

INSANE army lists still available!!!! Now being written in 8th edition format! I have Index Imperium 1, Index Xenos 2, and Codex Space Marines!
PM me for an INSANE (100K+ points) if you desire.
Number of BNK3R aircrafts on the US Gulf and East coasts: 19 (Each state has 1 BNK3R aircraft, though Florida has two: one for the Gulf Coast, the other for the East Coast). All designed by Handsome Jack.
"Do you really think I'd protect [insert state name here] with a couple of bots and some flimsy turrets? You see, you're not in [insert location under the gun for landfall here] right now. [location name here] isn't a place. *points* THAT'S the Bunker. Meet the [state name here] BNK3R, the greatest defense bot ever built. Designed her myself. Now do me a favor, and DISSIPATE.
Armaments of the BNK3R: Homing Rockets, Mortars, Slag Cannon, Autocannons, awesome music BNK3R Music
The Original BNK3R aircraft is located in Bunker, Missouri, aka Control Core Angel.  
   
Made in fi
Fixture of Dakka





 KaptinBadrukk wrote:
rothrich wrote:
boyz non-competitive?


Exactly why are boyz non competitive, yet Grotz competetive? That's just wrong, man.


The grotz are just to satisfy the cad requirements and sit on objective. For that you want cheapest model possible. Boyz are simply more expensive for the meagre bonus they get in survivability to survive in objective.

37 pts or so for minimum grot squad vs 60 pts for boyz.

Real killiing comes alas from rest of army. Not from the troop choices.

“Nothing has a definite nature, so people cannot be purely evil. Even so-called evil people will aspire to follow a moral path when they feel a sense of community.” – Kukai

6700 pts
5150 pts  
   
Made in us
Charging Orc Boar Boy





So much for boyz before toyz... 7th Ed is just not my cup of tea. That is why I picked up a start collecting greenskinz box on to aos!

Stikk bommas are special among ork society for one reason - They know when you pull the pin out of a stikk bomb you throw the bomb not the pin!
 
   
Made in fi
Fixture of Dakka





rothrich wrote:
So much for boyz before toyz... 7th Ed is just not my cup of tea. That is why I picked up a start collecting greenskinz box on to aos!


One of the many reasons why I play 2nd ed

(also fun to actually have orks that can actually hit something for a change!)

“Nothing has a definite nature, so people cannot be purely evil. Even so-called evil people will aspire to follow a moral path when they feel a sense of community.” – Kukai

6700 pts
5150 pts  
   
Made in ca
Smokin' Skorcha Driver







rothrich wrote:
Reading this has made me sure I won't be jumping back into 40k again until things change for the Orks. I started playing at the beginning of 5th and it has been down hill for my poor Orks ever since... boyz non-competitive? What's the point?


Orks are still Orks. I've tried few other races but I keep coming back. There's still things that are competitive in the book so all hope is not lost. This review focuses solely on full out competition with pro-tier lists. Boyz might not have a place in the top ten at Adeptican/NOVA/LVO/ITC but there's still good fluff, playstyle, and meta reasons for running the Boyz. If you want a fluffy pro-tier tournament list full of whimsical choices...I don't think that exists in any faction.

rothrich wrote:
So much for boyz before toyz... 7th Ed is just not my cup of tea. That is why I picked up a start collecting greenskinz box on to aos!


I don't think massed basic orks would fare all that well in competitive AOS. This is the game where you get to deploy the exact same number of models with no regards to point costing so... yeah.

tneva82 wrote:
rothrich wrote:
So much for boyz before toyz... 7th Ed is just not my cup of tea. That is why I picked up a start collecting greenskinz box on to aos!


One of the many reasons why I play 2nd ed

(also fun to actually have orks that can actually hit something for a change!)


I do actually miss the 2nd ed codex, even though I remember being sore about having to use it for nearly a decade.

tneva82 wrote:
 KaptinBadrukk wrote:
rothrich wrote:
boyz non-competitive?


Exactly why are boyz non competitive, yet Grotz competetive? That's just wrong, man.


The grotz are just to satisfy the cad requirements and sit on objective. For that you want cheapest model possible. Boyz are simply more expensive for the meagre bonus they get in survivability to survive in objective.

37 pts or so for minimum grot squad vs 60 pts for boyz.

Real killiing comes alas from rest of army. Not from the troop choices.


Exactly.

   
Made in us
Charging Orc Boar Boy





Aos doesn't really have a competitive meta yet. And basic boys would be a decent choice if there was. 5+ rerollable save, 2 banners,+2 to charge, 2 attacks each if more than 20 and -1 rend makes them as strong as any basic infantry in the game.


Stikk bommas are special among ork society for one reason - They know when you pull the pin out of a stikk bomb you throw the bomb not the pin!
 
   
Made in fi
Fixture of Dakka





rothrich wrote:
Aos doesn't really have a competitive meta yet. And basic boys would be a decent choice if there was. 5+ rerollable save, 2 banners,+2 to charge, 2 attacks each if more than 20 and -1 rend makes them as strong as any basic infantry in the game.



Not if opponent could say bring chaos lord for every boy you bring...

And if we brings in point system to AOS to play(no you don't bring 20 chaos lords vs my 20 boyz) then issue is then question of whether points reflect. You don't need quazillion bonuses and rules to have worthwhile unit if points are properly balanced. 40k points aren't. Just 'cause you change game however doesn't mean points are automatically fixed.

(nevermind there isn't yet official point system in AOS so until that you can face 20 chaos lords vs your 20 boyz. And if you bring in point system then there's no quarantee boyz are competive under it either)

“Nothing has a definite nature, so people cannot be purely evil. Even so-called evil people will aspire to follow a moral path when they feel a sense of community.” – Kukai

6700 pts
5150 pts  
   
Made in us
Charging Orc Boar Boy





Regardless this topic is about orks competitive analysis. And a game where the basic ork boy is a. non competitive choice is broken.

Stikk bommas are special among ork society for one reason - They know when you pull the pin out of a stikk bomb you throw the bomb not the pin!
 
   
Made in ca
Blood-Raging Khorne Berserker





Ottawa, Canada

rothrich wrote:
Regardless this topic is about orks competitive analysis. And a game where the basic ork boy is a. non competitive choice is broken.


The game is not broken, I'm pretty sure 90% of players just play garage games to have fun.

I use boyz all the time and win games, but the people I play against aren't copying lists from ITC tournament winners.

And competative games are faqed/housruled for balance by TOs (or Frontline gaming etc)

Really what competative Ork players should do is petition Frontline gaming and other major TO rules writers to buff units in the Ork codex or certain rules (like change the mob rule table) so that more units would be playable at tournaments.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
How about make ramshackle a 5+ invuln save? Or make mob rule 10+ models = fearless?

They have no problem nerfing psychic powers, why not buff the weakest codexes?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/05/27 15:16:07


 
   
 
Forum Index » Article Discussion
Go to: