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This is a bit stream of consciousness, so apologies if it's a bit jumbled.

I think building any army purely off the Imperial Militia leaves you feeling destined to die... So what better army than Squats!
So I'm building a 30k Squats army... Survivors of the Dark Age and Abhuman helots...

This "Codex" kinda points the build towards massed infantry (in varying sizes of mass) supported by a good number of super heavies. Survivors of the Dark Age changes that a bit and promotes a different dynamic with land raiders and rhinos... It pushes smaller units of grenadiers.

At this point the built part of my army are mostly the vehicles..,
2x Land Raider proteus with multi-meltas
2x malcadors each with battle cannon, Demolisher cannon, autocannon sponsons
Gorgon (yet to be armed)

Those mean I will minimally have to take a 20 model grenadier squad, and two 10 model grenadier squads. Where the 20 model squad I think should have R30 S4 las rifles and rotor cannons and the 10 model units have the shorter range S5 las weapons.

There is a bunch of armor 14, and the Malcadors can take flare shield above and beyond the armor 14 upgrade...

I want to have power armored "Ogryns" since between their carapace armor and Survivors of the Dark Age that "happens"... They'd count as big and bulky Exo-armored squats. How many Ogryns? Probably charging out of the Gorgon. I'm picturing a mix of power weapons and shields to ensure they have some sort of invulnerable save. This is the lists only real answer to assault units, short of tarpitting with a 50 man conscript unit.

How should I arm the Gorgon considering the rest of the army? It can take Lascannons and twin linked lascannons or just autocannons and twin linked auto cannons. I feel a need to compensate for the lack of heavy weapons in the list and that there isn't a whole lot of options for dealing with Spartans and other high armor targets.

I want a battery of 2-3 quad mortar rapiers. I think my 20 model grenadier squad would sit back with the rapiers. As a rear field holder do these two need more?

I want to have a Malcador Infernus as my Lord of War... Can I take it?

With my rough numbers I'm just around 1700pts with the vehicles I have and the grenadiers I have to take. Before I attempt to fill it out what are the glaring weaknesses of this army? I have no expectations from this list but it'd be nice if it isn't a Fido list that just rolls over and plays dead.

I want to have power armored "Ogryns" since between their carapace armor and Survivors of the Dark Age that "happens"... They'd count as big and bulky Exo-armored squats. How many Ogryns? Probably charging out of the Gorgon. I'm picturing a mix of power weapons and shields to ensure they have some sort of invulnerable save.

I've seen some conversions of exo-armour using centurions. They actually look bloody good!

Power Axes and shields make a nice mix. T6, 3+ save ogryns take a fair amount of killing. Knock up a 'standard bearer' (discipline master) and give them discipline collars and your 'hearthguard' are actually hard to break too.

Unless planning on charging with your grenadiers (and at WS3 S3 you certainly shouldn't), laslocks are a bit of a trap. S5 sounds nice, but at close quarters, 1 S5 shot is not as good as 2 S4 shots from an advanced lasgun or bolter. Laslocks are better weapons for Geneforged Feral Warrior types.

Quad Mortars and Lasrifle Grenadiers give you impressive long range anti-personnel firepower. What you lack is anti-tank; if (for an example) a leviathan dreadnought in a pod lands in your lines, what do you have that can deal with it? The Ogryns can slow it down (since it can't instant death one-hit them) but can't hurt it in return (AV13, 4++), and one meltabomb is unlikely to help.

Your quad mortars lack shatter shells, unlike the more expensive legion or solar auxilia versions.

Some grenadiers with meltaguns might work, but personally I'd consider some squat trikes (sentinals with multimeltas). They're not a bad plan because they're the only squat counts-as I can think of which belongs in Fast Attack, and because heavy antitank is a glaring weakness of the militia list as a whole.


And no, no malcador infernus. If it's in the Solar Auxilia list (and I think it is) it's not available to you.

Thanks for the reply. I think it helps me frame how to think of these units. Since FW doesn't produce models that directly represent Imperial Militia there aren't that many people building armies of them, and by extension writing about them.

I think bolters will work on those 10 man squads. I don't think grenadiers can take melta... If they can I'm limited to the 20 model squad because of how the special weapon upgrades are written for the squad... Where you start with 10 models and "add upto 2 grenadiers with special weapons." Making the squad however prohibits the Land Raider since those rules say only a squad with upto 10 models may take it as a dedicated transport. With the 20 model squad being so backfield meltaguns seem contrary to how'd they'd get used.

With the Infernus I probably should have been more specific... I was wondering if it's available because of a particular line in Book 2 that says (paraphrased) "to represent the diversity of vehicles and weapons in the age of darkness any super heavy from the Imperial Armour books can be used" -This phrasing appears twice in the book, once very broadly in regard to how the Heresy books are effectively a supplement to 40k and then again with the Legion rules. It clearly applies to Legions, but does the broader rule statement apply to all the other armies too? -When the books list Lords of Wars with an armylist they do it in such a way that implies that those are simply the distinct Lords of War for an army and not necessarily the only choices for an army.

I think the "to represent the diversity of vehicles and weapons in the age of darkness any super heavy from the Imperial Armour books can be used" line can only be applied to Space Marine Legions and not other armies, though I could be wrong there.

The key bit is that you can use a lord of war 'provided no other horus heresy list includes a version of it' or some such wording.

So solar auxilia cant use a fellblade, for example, because whilst it's in imperial armour II, it's also in the legion list

found the 'ogryns':
https://ironsleet.com/2015/01/06/harder-than-steel-squat-exo-unit/

edit: Those are pretty slick. I'll have to see if I can budget for enough Centurions or not.

 BrookM wrote:
I think the "to represent the diversity of vehicles and weapons in the age of darkness any super heavy from the Imperial Armour books can be used" line can only be applied to Space Marine Legions and not other armies, though I could be wrong there.

Please bear with me, this might be hard to follow and even if I'm incorrect with the rules, I want to at least be sure I'm not crazy in how I see it as ambiguous.

I finally had time to sit down with my stack of Horus Heresy books. I can't find anything that explicitly restricts all other FW super heavies as Lords of War exclusively to Space Marine Legion.

Book 2, page 162 is "Battle in the Age of Darkness"... where it spends 6 pages going over the "Battle in the Age of Darkness Force Organization Chart" and all the alternative FOC's. Its within this section it define what constitutes a Lords of War choice for any army using this FOC. It is in a box in the bottom right corner of pg 163 where that they go on to say:

"In order to represent this diversity when it comes to Super Heavy vehicles and Flyers, it is perfectly acceptable to use specific Imperial Super-heavy vehicles and Flyer units from Forge World's wider Imperial Armour range, such as Imperial Armour: Apocalypse or Imperial Armour: Aeronautica, which do not already have an era specific counter part listed in a Horus Heresy Supplement. In many cases, the Imperium of the Great Crusade sees the origin of some of these designs, while in others they can simply be used as stand-ins for one of the many, less widespread warmachine types and unique patterns employed by the a vast Imperial armed force, far less regimented and standardised than its 41st Millenium counterpart.

Rules as written, it would appear to apply to any force using the presented FOC unless otherwise overridden. Beyond the rule and this speaks to intent, it makes it clear they aren't necessarily talking only about Space Marine legions as they say the "vast Imperial Armed force," which seems very inclusive and open ended especially considering the then established Mechanicum army list. Trying to interpret this RaW is difficult as it does raise the question what constitutes an "era specific counterpart?"

On its face it seem intended to be inclusive in broad strokes rather than exclusionary. The other rules that accompany it, they clearly mirrors the Apocalypse rules that are equally inclusive in granting Space Marines access to Baneblades, Shadowsword, and their variants. Also important to consider when it says "which do not already have an era specific counter part listed in a Horus Heresy Supplement" is the past tense intended to mean "at this time?" -Or retroactively read after each new supplement?

There is also a question of reach... does the presence of the "Auxilia Shadosword" prohibit a generic Shadowsword from Marine Legions, something that even 40k Space Marines can take? Or is it only when the entry is specific to a faction such as if you're using a Thunderhawk you use the Legion Thunderhawk and not the 40k one. To me something clearly intended to expand diversity seems to accidentally have becomes a tool that severely limits it if it crosses army list boundaries. If its read one way it effectively eliminates everything from all the other books making it rather moot.

As an aside and before it goes down a rabbit hole... this rule seems most often cited incorrect when someone wants bring in an Imperial Knight. In that case however it appears to get shot down because Knights exist sole in the Mechanicum list and Knight Household list for 30k and Codex: Imperial Knight for 40k... thus absent from any Imperial Armour books.

In my case, assuming the rules on allowing a myriad of LoW applies to all armies using the FOC, if I want to include a "Malcador Infernus" as it appears in Imperial Armour Vol. 1 in an Imperial Militia list, does it's presence in a completely separate armylist as the "Auxilia Malcador Infernus Special Weapon tank" exclude the "Malcador Infernus" from my use and the use of all other non-Solar Auxilia armylists? To all other armies, is it an "era specific counter part" that prohibits any other army from using it or is it just an "era specific" variant... that is a counter part to the "Solar Auxilia"?

locarno24 wrote:
The key bit is that you can use a lord of war 'provided no other horus heresy list includes a version of it' or some such wording.

So solar auxilia cant use a fellblade, for example, because whilst it's in imperial armour II, it's also in the legion list

The closest it comes to that is the line "which do not already have an era specific counter part listed in a Horus Heresy Supplement." which I raise questions about above. I know I'm biased because I want a thing, but it would seem to me even that should technically be allowed in non-legion lists as it might be used to represent some esoteric vehicle from the dark age and would only restrict Space Marine legions to the use of the Legion version. Otherwise the rule is a bit moot as everything short of the Marauder bomber would then have a "counter part" and render the rule pretty meaningless.

My understanding is yes, the auxilia special weapons tank is the 'era specific counterpart'.

The underlying theory is, that a 40k superheavy might exist as a wierd-ass prototype or one off, so if it's not in anyone elses list, use it.

If it is in someone else's list, it's not a wierd ass one off, it's a standard issue (ish) unit that your faction didnt use, someone elses did.

it currently applies to: minotaur, praetor & dominus superheavy artillery, a few baneblade variants (the doomhammer?), macharius tanks,, the crassus transport, marauders and marauder destroyers, plus arguably daemon engines (for traitor mechanicus) from IA13

You're probably right. It's just hard to wrap my head around why a rule goes on about the great diversity of things, when it in fact limits and gradually reduces diversity with each new rule book.

 aka_mythos wrote:
You're probably right. It's just hard to wrap my head around why a rule goes on about the great diversity of things, when it in fact limits and gradually reduces diversity with each new rule book.

Because it's supposed to be a placeholder for the real rules. IOW, "yeah, you can use your Macharius, just use the 40k rules until we write 30k rules for it", not "take anything you want". As FW prints more and more rules it becomes a shift from "this isn't in your army list because that unit has no 30k rules anywhere" to "this isn't in your army list because only this other army can take it".

I understand what you're saying and I agree with the interpretation. Fictionally however there are suppose to be the diverse variety of war machines available to all sorts of different elements of the Imperal forces and because they are not as uniform and regimented they are using things that aren't normally associated with their respective 40k versions. They say that's the point of the rule. The rule also indicates an element of "count-as" that the rule is intended to promote which ends up contradicted by the result. While it maybe a place holder the consequences are the opposite of the stated purpose.

I like the stated purpose more than the rule or the actual consequence. The stated purpose makes sense. The rule make sense too. But the two together do not. I simply believe that there are certain sorts of vehicles that should continue to be available to all armies even if one faction has a version of it. For instance, in one of the big books covering the Drop Site Massacre it has a colored picture of an Iron Hands' Malcador who by this rule after the revelation of an Auxilia and Militia use should never have had it.

 aka_mythos wrote:
Fictionally however there are suppose to be the diverse variety of war machines available to all sorts of different elements of the Imperal forces and because they are not as uniform and regimented they are using things that aren't normally associated with their respective 40k versions.

Sure, fluff-wise this is true. But then why limit it to superheavies? Why can't I take a LRBT in my 30k marine army? Why can't I take a horde of militia conscripts in my solar auxilia army? At some point you just have to say "this is the army list, this is all you get". And the dividing line, in this case, is that you can take the 40k unit when FW hasn't put it into 30k yet, but you can't take it when FW has put it into 30k and said "your army doesn't have access to this".

For instance, in one of the big books covering the Drop Site Massacre it has a colored picture of an Iron Hands' Malcador who by this rule after the revelation of an Auxilia and Militia use should never have had it.

The marine list includes the Malcador.

 Peregrine wrote:

 aka_mythos wrote:
Fictionally however there are suppose to be the diverse variety of war machines available to all sorts of different elements of the Imperal forces and because they are not as uniform and regimented they are using things that aren't normally associated with their respective 40k versions.

Sure, fluff-wise this is true. But then why limit it to superheavies? Why can't I take a LRBT in my 30k marine army? Why can't I take a horde of militia conscripts in my solar auxilia army? At some point you just have to say "this is the army list, this is all you get". And the dividing line, in this case, is that you can take the 40k unit when FW hasn't put it into 30k yet, but you can't take it when FW has put it into 30k and said "your army doesn't have access to this".

Mechanicum are making most everything... Space Marines are using whatever weapons they can get access to... The Imperial Militia represent the greatest multitude of various forces. It's only when you represent more specific forces like the Solar Auxilia or the Ordo Reductor that you concievably can limit the force by saying "they didn't use those." IF for instance the Solar Auxilia are the only ones who can use anything like a Malcador Infernus because they have their specific variant that can take a chemical spray as an upgrade then the fiction of diversity and is just a fiction. That does seems to be the case and thus I question why the fiction or explanation of diversity should exist. But I'll shut up now.