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So my question is while the grey knight libiarn does not have the USR brother hood of psyker if he is in a squad of say termies and casts electro shield does only he get the buff or does his whole unit as the power says it targets the psyker. I can't seem to find a good source yet as the faq is so new.

Only when a bop casts the power does it extend to all bop in the unit.

Brotherhood of Psykers is actually written to confer to any attached ICs, so currently when a librarian is joined to a strike squad, the whole unit is a brotherhood of psykers unit

The current draft of the FAQ brings this into question though. we'll just have to wait and see how the final draft looks

 jokerkd wrote:
Brotherhood of Psykers is actually written to confer to any attached ICs, so currently when a librarian is joined to a strike squad, the whole unit is a brotherhood of psykers unit

The current draft of the FAQ brings this into question though. we'll just have to wait and see how the final draft looks

You might want to support that with a citation. Per the IC rules, BoP does not confer to the IC. If you can prove otherwise, please give us a quote.

SJ

'm just going by the rule itself. it's written in the same way as stubborn, which is the example of how a USR must be written in order to confer between unit/IC

it only requires one model to have the rule, in which case it affects the whole unit

"a unit containing at least one model with this special rule is a psyker unit"

"while an ic is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes"

I think Jokerkd might be right. I can't remember all the FAQ's, is there something that contradicts this?

Please re-read Brotherhood of Psykers USR. While the line you quoted is true, the actual rules listed in bullet points statement the effects are applied to models with the BoP USR. The IC rules as well as the rules for Special Rules state the actual USR does not confer to other models, although the effects might. A Psyker IC that joins a BoP unit does not gain the BoP USR. Per the new FAQ, both the IC and BoP unit contribute their PML seperately to Warp Charge generation, and both can cast the powers that the individual model knows so long as no power being cast is duplicated by other models in the unit. BoP specifically states the only models in the unit with the BoP USR can suffer the effects of a Perils generated by a model with BoP, for example.

So in the example of a GK Libby attached to a GKT squad, the Libby does not gain the BoP special rule.

SJ

Yes I'm clear on that, but that doesn't really relate to the op. If an ic psyker joins a bop unit, he becomes a part of it. What needs clarifying is if powers cast by them then affect the rest of the unit, as the FAQ isn't clear on whether the caster needs the bop rule. I know that powers cast by the bop models don't benefit the IC, but we are discussing the other way around, and my citations where to support that there is grounds for it working in that direction. As I read it, if the libby casts something that would benefit only him, it would affect the everyone in the unit with the bop as well. I could well be wrong, and hopefully the 2nd draft will clarify.

My mistake. I meant the whole unit is a psyker unit. The book defines "psyker unit" and "psyker" as the same thing, meaning if the IC casts a power that affects the "psyker", it would affect the whole unit

On the contrary, the faq states that any rule that affects a unit does not affect ICs. There are no exceptions in the answer. It's a straight "no"

I believe they meant to only address detachment rules but have unwittingly cast a blanket ban on all rules, like hit and run, from affecting ICs

It also means that a unit afflicted with blindness does not affect the IC, contrary to the IC rules.

The issue is that instead of a clarification, GW just FAQ'd a rule change that goes against what they wrote in the BRB. Which is to say that their input changes the mechanics rather clarifies the mechanics.

SJ

"Psyker" and "Psyker unit" aren't actually defined as the same thing in the psychic section. I recently re-read it and it could very well be that those two terms are distinct and different.

Here's another strange one for the BoP rules:
Let's look at the BoP rule. "If this unit suffers Perils of the Warp...the hits are Randomly allocated amongst models with the BoP speicla rule."
The Libby is part of the unit. He manifests a power and suffers a Perils. The UNIT has suffered a Perils since the Libby is a part of the unit. Now, in fact, it's illegal for him to take the effects. According to BoP, the Perils can ONLY go to a model with BoP, which the Libby doesn't have.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
"Psyker" and "Psyker unit" aren't actually defined as the same thing in the psychic section. I recently re-read it and it could very well be that those two terms are distinct and different.

Here's another strange one for the BoP rules:
Let's look at the BoP rule. "If this unit suffers Perils of the Warp...the hits are Randomly allocated amongst models with the BoP speicla rule."
The Libby is part of the unit. He manifests a power and suffers a Perils. The UNIT has suffered a Perils since the Libby is a part of the unit. Now, in fact, it's illegal for him to take the effects. According to BoP, the Perils can ONLY go to a model with BoP, which the Libby doesn't have.

It can also be read that the "unit" is the BoP unit, while the IC is it's own unit due to how special rules interact.

SJ

what part of the FAQ are you guys refering to? did I miss something?

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

It can also be read that the "unit" is the BoP unit, while the IC is it's own unit due to how special rules interact.

SJ

Nothing allows ICs to be interacted as their own unit while joined to another.

 Charistoph wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

It can also be read that the "unit" is the BoP unit, while the IC is it's own unit due to how special rules interact.

SJ

Nothing allows ICs to be interacted as their own unit while joined to another.

Nothing except the IC rules.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

It can also be read that the "unit" is the BoP unit, while the IC is it's own unit due to how special rules interact.

SJ

Nothing allows ICs to be interacted as their own unit while joined to another.

Nothing except the IC rules.

SJ

Which has nothing that allows ICs to be interacted as their own unit while joined to another.

If you can provide it, do so.

Like the part where an IC does not share rules with the unit? A Psyker IC is a Psyker in their own right, generating powers and Warp Charges on their own, separate from the unit they have joined.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Like the part where an IC does not share rules with the unit?

That is about sharing rules, nothing about treating it as its own unit. It is a model with its own rules assigned to it, much like a Sergeant or Company Champion has their own separate rules from the rest of the unit.

A Psyker IC is a Psyker in their own right, generating powers and Warp Charges on their own, separate from the unit they have joined.

A Psyker in its own right, but still not treating it as a separate unit.

 Charistoph wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Like the part where an IC does not share rules with the unit?

That is about sharing rules, nothing about treating it as its own unit. It is a model with its own rules assigned to it, much like a Sergeant or Company Champion has their own separate rules from the rest of the unit.

A Psyker IC is a Psyker in their own right, generating powers and Warp Charges on their own, separate from the unit they have joined.

A Psyker in its own right, but still not treating it as a separate unit.

Did you just argue semantics?

SJ

It seems to me that if the IC psyker casts a spell that only affects the psyker, it affects only him as he does not have the BoP usr, and if BoP models cast the spell it affects everyone with the BoP usr.

Elric does appear to be right however in that, if an IC psyker in a BoP unit, gets a peril of the warp effect it would be unable to distribute to him.

Very odd

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

Did you just argue semantics?

SJ

This whole board's purpose is nothing but arguing semantics.

Even with the Psyker example and the FAQ, a Librarian in a Grey Knight Squad still cannot cast a spell already cast by the BoP.

 Charistoph wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

Did you just argue semantics?

SJ

This whole board's purpose is nothing but arguing semantics.

Even with the Psyker example and the FAQ, a Librarian in a Grey Knight Squad still cannot cast a spell already cast by the BoP.

I concur about that, powers cast are once per unit+IC.

SJ