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My suggestions to adjust ogryns:
1) 18pt basic cost.
2) Heavy Close Combat Weapons option at +3pts each.
3) Carapace armour option at +5pts each.
4) BONEhead makes the unit Stubborn. I'd also suggest that you need a BONEhead to benefit from Officer's Leadership special rule.

Failing that, give them a special 'fatties' rule to help against Instant Death hits ? take two wounds instead of dying outright. Not keen on this, because it goes down that route of ignoring general rules.

They'd still be overpriced. And you're right, ignoring instant death shouldn't be an option, even though nearly every army already does.

Seriously, GW still thinks that having an extra wound is somehow awesomely wonderful. An Ogryn with 3 wounds means it lasts 3 times longer, right? Right?


Here's a question for you all: If Ogryns were 15 points, and you had a choice to either take them or Marines (at 15 points also, of course), which would you take?

If we were just talking statlines, perhaps you'd be tricked into taking the Ogryn. But as soon as you introduce powerfists and S8 shooting weapons into the mix (which a standard army has no shortage of) all of a sudden the Ogryn's 3 wounds quickly shrivel up.

Someday, perhaps, GW will properly value multi-wound creatures with a T4 and less. Unfortunately, they seem hell bent on making the MEQ statline the most cost effective in the game.


I would say:

1) Ogryns should be 15 points base (16 MAX).
2) The CC upgrade should be zero points.
3) Carapace should be +3 pts a model.
4) Sure. Your bonehad rule is fine, but I'd much rather he had the option to take a power weapon, personally.

Keep all the current prices and stats the same, however give them a free powerfist with the bone head upgrade. Work out the math on that vs meqs

I would suggest something similar, just allow bone 'eads to purchase power weapons.

Darkchild

My take on it would be like this: Statline unchanged except for the toughness. Like in 2nd ed. they should be T5. 18pts. per model. CC weapon upgrade free. Bone head has access to PW and PF's. Carapace upgrade +3pts per model. Increased Cyber enhancement on Bone Head +10pts. Makes the ogryns Stubborn in Close Combat. Capt K

Allow Boneheads acess to the Officer only wargear.

Play the Ogryn gun as a grenade launcher.

Allow slugga and choppa swap for free.

Solved.

(Oh yea, and get rid of pointless Dark in there rules! Is that ever even going to happen in a game ever?)

Make the Toughness 5 and have them count as Monstruos Creatures in close combat.

Make their ripper guns RENDING (ducks under desk)

why just the guns- why not in combat too

Maybe keep the points the same and have their standard equipment be a +1 S heavy close combat weapon and Medallion Crimson? +1 points for a Ripper Gun, +2 points for an additional close combat weapon.

As far as "It's Dark in Dere" goes, rather than IG officers coaxing their lumbering charges into cramped APCs, couldn't it be imaginable that the Ogryns might just be ordered to pry off the roof and turret from their transport? "Ogrynized" Chimera for 60 points, no turret, open-topped, +5 points for hull weapon and all other upgrades as usual. Alternatively, one could see mere humans being unwilling to drive such a contraption - maybe 45 points for the same thing, except may not move or fire unless at least one Ogryn is embarked, must re-roll successful dangerous terrain tests, and inflicts -1 LD when tank shocking. (One can imagine how Ogryns might drive.)

"Maybe keep the points the same and have their standard equipment be a +1 S heavy close combat weapon and Medallion Crimson? +1 points for a Ripper Gun, +2 points for an additional close combat weapon."

Keep the points the same... and then charge me extra for a Ripper Gun?

Tell me wight_widow, why would I spend points 26-point BS3 troops armed with guns worse than Shuriken Catapults when I those points could be going towards more heavy weapons? The object of this thread was to improve Ogryns, not make them worse. Credit where credit's due however - it takes a special kind of mind to take a really bad unit and actually make it worse.

BYE

That was harsh.

Keep the points the same. Str. 4 Toughness 5, Ignors Saves in close combat, roll 2 D6 for armor Penetration in assault. Count as stationary when fireing weapons. Have an option to upgrade to Carapace Armor for a resonable price.

Viola.

Make them a (more) durable counter-assault unit. Heavy close combat weapons (in addition to being ripper guns and giving them +1 str) fit the bill, and carapace armor. All this for 20 pts/each. The remove the "It's Dark in Dere!" rule.

Posted By H.B.M.C. on 06/07/2006 8:17 AM

"Maybe keep the points the same and have their standard equipment be a +1 S heavy close combat weapon and Medallion Crimson? +1 points for a Ripper Gun, +2 points for an additional close combat weapon."

Keep the points the same... and then charge me extra for a Ripper Gun?

Tell me wight_widow, why would I spend points 26-point BS3 troops armed with guns worse than Shuriken Catapults when I those points could be going towards more heavy weapons? The object of this thread was to improve Ogryns, not make them worse. Credit where credit's due however - it takes a special kind of mind to take a really bad unit and actually make it worse.

BYE

 ouch! That's what I get for posting without my codex on my knees to check things like point values. In (feeble) self-justification, my only reason for mentioning the ripper gun at all was for people with older models who don't want to strip and reconvert. BTW - and slightly OT - are your opponents all still buying extended carapaces for their Carnifexes?  (though you do have a point, if they cost the same as grey knights, lack shooting, shrouding and deep strike, the ability to ignore only one insta-kill each plus -1/-2 "save modifier" to MEQs/Termies DOES NOT cut it.)

 

edit - for the rest of you, this is just residual bad blood over a disagreement H. and I had on whether Carnifexes will usually purchase a 2+ save that got started talking about sniper rifles, and three or four posts "we each" made without having read the other's argument.

About "Dark in Dere", I don't think it's much of an issue considering Ogryns have - and should have - lousy shooting, and Chimeras are - and should be - lousy APCs for drive-bys and useless APCs for assaults. I'm increasingly a fan of Mahu's idea, just since a unit that moves 6" and has a close combat focus SHOULD be able to rip Terminators and heavy tanks to shreds if they can survive the march. Access to carapace armour is another "meh" - why bother considering autocannon and the like are AP4? Also, why bother with counts asstationary for shooting since their basic weapon is effectively a shotgun, and officers don't have access to missile launchers and so on? Giving them access to missile launchers and such - basically making them an IG devastator squad - seems to be bending the fluff a little much, malleable as it is. If I have two other ideas, maybe

1) make them 0-1 and allow up to three squads per choice, like a platoon only less restrictive - maybe force the purchase of a single Bone'ead and count him as an Officer - leadership, weapons, etcetera. Ogryns should not compete with suicide squads for elite choices.

2) Let them buy an upgrade to "berzerkers" (Feel No Pain) for, say, five to ten points and leaving their ripper guns at home. Combined with T5 or Meddalion Crimson, this would mean a 4+ save versus any shooting save solid shot from railguns and demolisher templates, but they'd still be vulnerable to 40-point Terminators with Lightnign Claws, if it's fair to compare two crap units to justify the comparative lack of crappiness of one of them in the name of game balance...nerm. If we're assuming Ogryn's drawbacks should be poor mobility and poor shooting, they should be very tough - basically baby Carnifexes for all intents and purposes.