Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hey all

I was contemplating creating a fluffy Chaos Warband down the road of either Emperors Children or World Eaters. My question is... Are all Emperors Children Noise Marines and are all World Eaters Khorn Bezerkers?

Listing to the audio Drama Perfection, there appears to be some EC who seem just Chaosy and not so noisey but aside from that though, most sources from what Ive heard point to EC being fitted with the noise amplification/sonic scream addition. Are there any/many sorces indicating that there are some who are not? Besides Perfection.

Pretty much all things Ive read in the Horus Heresy and others seem to point to them all being bezerkers. Books like Kharn: Eater of World further hint at this but would there be some marines who use bolters in the 41st millennium? Would they all have the bunny ears even if they were not Bezerkers anyway?

Lore masters and Chaos Worshippers, help me out here.

No and no.

not all emperor's children are gonna be noise marines no, you'd at the very least have sorcrers, etc.

Emperor's Children- no. The obvious example is their champion, Lucius the Eternal, who is not mentioned as being at all noise-mariney. The World Eaters are a little more unclear, as I think its stated that they all had the butcher's nails before the heresy (cept the Librarians which were killed).

This doesn't mean all WE's are zerkers however. In Talon of Horus, one of the minor characters is a WE who looks at the nails as something to test/measure himself against, and almost all of the WE's in the book are mentioned using heavy bolters and such.

I think it would be fully possible for the WE's to still have ranged units and such , although these units still have the nails and thus the extra rage when out of combat.

Mudrat wrote:
Emperor's Children- no. The obvious example is their champion, Lucius the Eternal, who is not mentioned as being at all noise-mariney. The World Eaters are a little more unclear, as I think its stated that they all had the butcher's nails before the heresy (cept the Librarians which were killed).

This doesn't mean all WE's are zerkers however. In Talon of Horus, one of the minor characters is a WE who looks at the nails as something to test/measure himself against, and almost all of the WE's in the book are mentioned using heavy bolters and such.

I think it would be fully possible for the WE's to still have ranged units and such , although these units still have the nails and thus the extra rage when out of combat.

Ahh that's interesting, I haven't got around to reading Talon of Horus yet. It would seem possible for them not to all have close combat weapons but aside from that example you have just used a lot of the source material provided by GW seems rather vague. Thanks for pointing that one out

the world eaters presumably have havoks, raptors etc. now that said, someone building a WE army should give even his Havoks a CCW

Not all world eaters are berserkers, and not all berzerkers were world eaters. Same for noise/plague marines.

Legions where massive and split across entire sectors and spread out. There are room for seige minded world eaters, marines who break there nor al cults and styles.

Individual fleets could take on different aspects, specilaismas and skills spending on the whims of there officers.

According to Codex 3.5 Edition at least all Death Guard Marines became Plague Marines since nobody could escape Nurgle's rot.
With Noise Marines... they obviousely are the successors of the 30K Kakophoni and those were only special units of the EC. However, since you can equip Noise Marines with only Bolters, those could represent the EC tacticals as well. Hard to say.
With WE... I guess all of them are Berserkers but not in the sense of the specific unit, but they are all insane maniacs, even if some of them like to shred you with their heavy bolters before they hit you with their axes.

Mudrat wrote:
Emperor's Children- no. The obvious example is their champion, Lucius the Eternal, who is not mentioned as being at all noise-mariney. The World Eaters are a little more unclear, as I think its stated that they all had the butcher's nails before the heresy (cept the Librarians which were killed).

This doesn't mean all WE's are zerkers however. In Talon of Horus, one of the minor characters is a WE who looks at the nails as something to test/measure himself against, and almost all of the WE's in the book are mentioned using heavy bolters and such.

I think it would be fully possible for the WE's to still have ranged units and such , although these units still have the nails and thus the extra rage when out of combat.

Well, Lucius does have a Doom Siren... I'd say an even stronger example of a non-Noise marine EC is Fabius Bile (and his entourage).

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
According to Codex 3.5 Edition at least all Death Guard Marines became Plague Marines since nobody could escape Nurgle's rot.
With Noise Marines... they obviousely are the successors of the 30K Kakophoni and those were only special units of the EC. However, since you can equip Noise Marines with only Bolters, those could represent the EC tacticals as well. Hard to say.
With WE... I guess all of them are Berserkers but not in the sense of the specific unit, but they are all insane maniacs, even if some of them like to shred you with their heavy bolters before they hit you with their axes.

Yes, it is worth remembering that 3.5 Ed differently defined units such as berserkers. The definition then was much broader, so while all World Eaters were berserkers under that definition, I'd say the 6/7th edition berserkers represent the 'apex berserker', which not all world eaters would fit under (1) the unit entry even describes how new joiners to the World Eaters have to earn their 'Nail and 2) the Kharn formation requires non-berserker khorne marked csm).

I imagine that WE work kind of like BT in that they can have bolters and ranged weaponry but the core of their fighting forces would be charge-happy CCW wielding dudes.

 Chef_of_Cadia wrote:
I imagine that WE work kind of like BT in that they can have bolters and ranged weaponry but the core of their fighting forces would be charge-happy CCW wielding dudes.

Pretty much this. Khorne Berserkers will form the bulk of the World Eaters' forces and Noise Marines will form the bulk of the Emperor's Children forces, but this doesn't preclude Marines from these Legions/Warbands from fulfilling other roles and purposes.

I have a world eaters army that has a bunch of Berzerkers... Also has some MoK CSM with bolter , pistol, and ccw... My ranged experts? - Havoks.... With MOK and flamers.... You can build a "world eaters" force without using all Berzerkers and still feeling pretty darn fluffy!

The EC were masters in all types of warfare. It makes nonsense for them to have all turned into Noise Marines.

The death guard were all infected with the destroyer virus on the terminus est. were they not?

Also I'm pretty sure I remember reading that all World Eaters are berzerkers, but not all berzerkers are World Eaters. I think this probably has to do with the fact that they've had the butchers nails implanted into their skulls.

Not all of the Death Guard were on the Terminus Est, so they can't have all been infected there.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Not all of the Death Guard were on the Terminus Est, so they can't have all been infected there.

this.

Not all the Death Guard where there so how could they become infected?

For the EC, no they are not.

The WE prefer close combat and always utilise it but they aren't all berserkers.

TheWanderer wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Not all of the Death Guard were on the Terminus Est, so they can't have all been infected there.

this.

Not all the Death Guard where there so how could they become infected?

You sir are correct in that not all Death Guard were on the Terminus Est/ in the fleet, however the entire 2/3's of the Death Guard who swore their allegiance to Horus and went traitor were there, while the other 1/3 who remained loyal to the imperium and Nathienal-Garro had pretty much all been slaughtered/killed off in the Drop Site Massacre of Isstvan and subsequent engaments, and the few loyalist suriviors were either absorbed into still loyalist legions of space marines or followed Garro in joining the inquisition.

So pretty much all the Death Guard that were still alive or not part of Garro's little group of imperi-philes were there when the fleet got lost in the warp and Mortarion had to call for help and give himself to nurgle. Thus why all Death Guard members who still walk the galaxy are now plague marines. Yet not all plague marines are death guard, as other legions use them/ have fallen into nurgles grasp.


But on more of the topic of the overall thread no and kinda.

Emperors children are definitely not all noise marines, this is just one of their specialist units. World Eaters, on the other hand, are mostly Khorn Bezerkers but can use other space marine units when/where needed.

 Caesar3594 wrote:
however the entire 2/3's of the Death Guard who swore their allegiance to Horus and went traitor were there,

Source please.

The fluff has been fairly clear that all World Eaters are Berzerkers, stated in mulitple different sources. Every World Eater is a Berzerker, but the surgery to create them is no longer exclusive to the WE's and thus not all Berzerkers are World Eaters.

Not all Emperor's Children however are Noise Marines.

All of the original World Eaters are Berzerkers, for they were all implanted with the Butcher's Nails.
But as the WE Legion has been shattered, many CSM who were not part of the original WE Legion have joined WE warbands, and many WE have joined non-WE warbands.
So to create a fluffy WE warband you'd either have a dedicated Berzerker warband or a mix of Khornate CSM from all kinds of backgrounds.

TheWanderer wrote:

 Caesar3594 wrote:
however the entire 2/3's of the Death Guard who swore their allegiance to Horus and went traitor were there,

Source please.

"At the beginning of the Horus Heresy, many Death Guard who remained loyal to the Emperor were massacred on Isstvan III by their fellow Space Marines, including Captain Ullis Temeter. Roughly a third of the Legion was still loyal to the Emperor[16a]. Shortly after, they battled Imperial forces in the Drop Site Massacre. During the Horus Heresy, the Death Guard joined Warmaster Horus in many battles and raids on the Imperium. The Lord of Death split his fleet, commanding one himself and Calas Typhon the other..."

"...Angered, Mortarion realized that his divided legion was hampering his war effort and ordered Eidolon to find Typhon and his splinter fleet.[20] When the Death Guard's fleet embarked for Terra Typhon killed the Navigators, whom he alleged remained loyal to the Emperor, and assured his Primarch that he could lead the fleet to Terra without their help. Instead, he led them into a trap - becalming the Death Guard fleet in the warp, adrift, helpless and at the mercy of Chaos[19]."

Bolded the important bits, Quotations straight from the Death Guard Lexicanium page which can be viewed in full here: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Death_Guard

It cites The Horus Heresy Book One - Betreyal ([16a]) and the 40k Novel "Vengeful Spirit" as the sources for the first caption, then Codex: Chaos Space Marines (3rd Edition, 2nd Codex) ([19]) and the 40k novel "The Path of Heaven" ([20]) as sources for the second caption.

Believe me, I know my own factions lore, I read this gak for fun.

 Vaktathi wrote:
The fluff has been fairly clear that all World Eaters are Berzerkers, stated in mulitple different sources. Every World Eater is a Berzerker, but the surgery to create them is no longer exclusive to the WE's and thus not all Berzerkers are World Eaters.

Not all Emperor's Children however are Noise Marines.

The definition of a 'berserker' was much broader when the fluff described 'all World Eaters are Berzerkers'. Now Berzerkers have once again become a much more specific unit type, I don't believe World Eaters are any longer described as being all berserkers, are they?

I.e. World Eaters were only ever described as being all berzerkers when berserker included unit entries such as havoks, bikes and so on.

World Eaters were described as forsaking all weapons but close combat weapons and being entirely Berzerkers without Havocs and the like. A totally World Eater composed warband would be just close combat troops.

Newer GW fluff simply just doesnt really get into any details regarding the Legions besides a couple sentence blurb really, Legion fluff for the last 9 or so years has been both exceedingly thin and very vague, pretty much all CSM fluff since the end of 4th has been pretty one dimensional and watery thin, but they havent contradicted the WE's being entirely close combat troops.

 Vaktathi wrote:
World Eaters were described as forsaking all weapons but close combat weapons and being entirely Berzerkers without Havocs and the like. A totally World Eater composed warband would be just close combat troops.

Newer GW fluff simply just doesnt really get into any details regarding the Legions besides a couple sentence blurb really, Legion fluff for the last 9 or so years has been both exceedingly thin and very vague, pretty much all CSM fluff since the end of 4th has been pretty one dimensional and watery thin, but they havent contradicted the WE's being entirely close combat troops.

While I agree with you that that is the established fluff for world eaters, in a Khorn Berserker unit every man also has a bolt pistol and they can take some special weapons if wanted. Unfortunately here is our notorius GW contradiction for them. Fluff wise, all CWs , rules wise, they all have bolt pistols. I have a friend at my local gamestore group who plays world eaters and models his guys with all CW's but when he plays them rules wise technically still have bolt pistols.

Also if you really wanted to play world eaters and still have ranged weapons you could play them as carcharagons who have mentally gone to chaos and turned traitor already but have not yet physically turned and gone full berserk so they would still have some ranged weapons with a heavy preference for close combat.

Bolt pistols I think fall under close combat weapons really and augment CC like an additional CCW, and its wargear theyve always had. They cannot however take normal special weapons except plasma pistols (unless my memory has totally failed me). They just dont wield bolters, lascannons, etc.

I mean your definitely right but your missing half of what a bot pistol is. It's a ranged weapon and it counts as a ccw, as do all pistols and thus why you take them. Still ranged weapons though so it goes against the fluff that they got rid of all.of them

Found the passage I was thinking of, it does mention Bolt pistols.

WORLD EATERS
"(some stuff about the battle for Terra and withdrawal to the Eye of Terror)...All pretence of forming balanced, tactical forces has now fallen away and they are now armed entirely with pistols and close combat weapons, chain-axes, and chainswords becoming the favored tools of bloodshed".

CSM 3E codex page 32. I believe it's also mentioned in the Index Astartes section on the World Eaters and IIRC the 2E codex, possibly the 3.5E book as well, but I don't have those on me currently.

 Caesar3594 wrote:

TheWanderer wrote:

 Caesar3594 wrote:
however the entire 2/3's of the Death Guard who swore their allegiance to Horus and went traitor were there,

Source please.

"At the beginning of the Horus Heresy, many Death Guard who remained loyal to the Emperor were massacred on Isstvan III by their fellow Space Marines, including Captain Ullis Temeter. Roughly a third of the Legion was still loyal to the Emperor[16a]. Shortly after, they battled Imperial forces in the Drop Site Massacre. During the Horus Heresy, the Death Guard joined Warmaster Horus in many battles and raids on the Imperium. The Lord of Death split his fleet, commanding one himself and Calas Typhon the other..."

"...Angered, Mortarion realized that his divided legion was hampering his war effort and ordered Eidolon to find Typhon and his splinter fleet.[20] When the Death Guard's fleet embarked for Terra Typhon killed the Navigators, whom he alleged remained loyal to the Emperor, and assured his Primarch that he could lead the fleet to Terra without their help. Instead, he led them into a trap - becalming the Death Guard fleet in the warp, adrift, helpless and at the mercy of Chaos[19]."

Bolded the important bits, Quotations straight from the Death Guard Lexicanium page which can be viewed in full here: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Death_Guard

It cites The Horus Heresy Book One - Betreyal ([16a]) and the 40k Novel "Vengeful Spirit" as the sources for the first caption, then Codex: Chaos Space Marines (3rd Edition, 2nd Codex) ([19]) and the 40k novel "The Path of Heaven" ([20]) as sources for the second caption.

Believe me, I know my own factions lore, I read this gak for fun.

I am not seeing anything there that emphatically states they were all there, your bolded section shows what he wanted not what he achieved.

It also doesnt state that the 1/3 that were loyal were massacred, it says many were and then goes on to tell you how many were loyal. It doesnt say x number were loyal and they were massacred.

So I still think its far from certain that ALL Deathguard were present to then become Plague Marines.