Your house, your rules. I wouldn't feel bad about it.

From what you've said but you might be skirting the line re snobbery.

Three colours is the usual minimum so being above this is a bit harsh. I say this as you could be doing yourself a disservice on the basis that you might be missing out on more gamers (you can't have enough I reckon) and more personalities for the mix. Plus It's the easiest thing in the world to help another gamer up his/her skills over time and they might be a really sound person to boot.

Also you can over organise what is supposed to be a fun activity. Do you check their armies before gaming? If so you might be taking it a bit too seriously. That might be fine but it's a good question to ask yourself and one that you seem to be doing.

Finally don't get too hung up on painting ability as the rule of 4' always applies. You really won't tell the difference between a top end paint job and three colour minimum standing over a table full of models and scenery

Your hobby, your choice. Play the game however you like.

I'm a 'snob' and would prefer to go without a game vs play against unpainted.
I'd rather a painting session, terrain building session or chat in the pub with that opponent until we're up to speed.

It's fairly common for people who don't want to do the work to paint their armies to argue that people who like playing with painted armies adn don't want to play with unpainted armies are snobs.

There isn't any special virtue in playing with unpainted armies that you lack by not wanting to do it.

I get exactly what you are saying and I also detest playing against unpainted armies.

Not just because I love playing with nicely painted minis but also because I am a very visual person and thhe last 40K game I played was against a half painted but mostly black undercoated army.

I really struggled to tell units apart and it made for an unenjoyable game.

I have spent a long time painting up an army that's fully WYSIWYG and I would hope that my opponents would put put in similar effort.

HOWEVER - It's taken me 6 years to get to that point for one of my armies. I am slow painter and working full time doesn't leave me much free time to build and paint minis.

If I were part of your group I wouldn't have been able to play a game for at least 6 months and that would have been at best about 500pts.

I totally agree that it's right to set standards and expectations but sometimes you have to allow for WIP models.

I also like to try out new units before spending ages painting them.

However if you have specified that your group is for experienced or already invested palyers I think you have every right to do that and I reckon it would be a very cool group to be apart of.

Not everybody is a master painter though, no matter how hard they try which is why most tournies go for the 3 colour rule.

Something that might make me a snob is actually the games table.

I hate palying on a table with rubbish or unpainted terrain, especially as so much is available pre-painted and with the advent of fat mats etc.

My first club was pretty strict on painting standards. The core club organizers would often tell you they wouldn't play with your models if they weren't painted. Now, without context, this sounds kind of snobbish and verging on donkey-cave behaviour, but not only did the organizers set up regular painting nights and learning sessions (they were amazing hobbyists), all of their armies were fantastically painted and we always played on fully painted tables, some of which were entirely custom made.

To them, the idea of fielding their painted armies on a table they made from scratch that was also beautifully painted against a grey legion was just not what they signed up to do. However, they'd gladly let you use one of their armies for whatever game we were playing until you had your own force painted up.

That was probably the best club I've ever had and likely will ever have.

I wouldn't characterize any private club for a hobby as being "unfair" for having particular requirements to participate unless you were trying to have your town council ban any other club or other such silliness. It's a club, and by nature optional. If someone doesn't want to abide by the rules they can start their own club. Even if you owned a store you'd have a right to enforce such rules; you'd be a fool as you'd be driving away customers, but still within your rights.

The only time you'd need to be concerned about the effects of your rules is if you became the only club in an X mile radius. Then you're not engaging with the hobby just for you, but rather dictating terms to anyone who wanted to get started and stifling the hobby in your area. Then you'd want to give serious thought to holding regular painting nights and such. You're still not wrong per se, but you're doing a bad thing so you may want to examine that. However, that's relatively unlikely scenario to happen in the UK or Europe due to population density, though eminently possible in the rural US.

One question though on proxies since I've seen that word used in a few different contexts; is that meaning a model that is clearly a Space Marine being used as a Necron or Terminator as a Centurion is prohibited, which is how I use the word? Or does that mean only the manufacturer's models for the game and bringing in other ranges, which I would personally call alternative models, is not allowed? That's a very broad can of worms, as with most folks it varies with how good the alternate is (e.g. - random toys off the shelf = no, but alternate bitz makers = fine), but since you're looking to enforce a certain standard on the table I'm just curious about the extent of that rule. Just to put a more concrete example forward, if someone had a full DreamForge Games (random painted examples; worth noting the 2nd link's model is taller than a Knight by a sizable amount) army painted up nicely as AdMech or Imperial Guard, would that force be welcome on the table or is the immersion of the setting more important?

The tl;dr answer is ‘your house, your rules’.

The long answer is this. I like painting. I like modelling, and converting. I have no problems spending 3 or 4 hours painting a model that might not even have a game system or rules profile to play it with – in other words, I enjoy painting models for their own sakes. Strangely, what made me realise this was deciding to re-paint my Circle of Orboros army, and then going to a WMH tourney a few years ago, with my army in the middle of ‘reconstruction’ –the army I was fielding was a mix of ‘first draft’ painted models (ie yet to be stripped/repainted), stripped and repainted models (new scheme, more experience/skill so generally a lot ‘better’), and some stripped and greenstuffed conversion-in-progress models that had yet to be painted. As you can imagine, the mix of painted (with 2 paint schemes!) and unpainted was quite jarring and unsatisfying, and afterwards, I swore to myself to never play with unpainted models again. I have kept to that vow. I don’t mind playing against unpainted stuff, but have an overwhelming preference to play against painted models.

Now, when I read your OP, and all I can do is smile Gordie. I want to buy you a beer. And yes, I really mean that. I often feel that gamers are their own worst enemies – we can be a very toxic and bitter community and should come with a ‘hazardous’ label. I think intertia and a lack of proactivity is one of the greatest faults of our community – too many people would rather just sit back and complain, rather than doing anything about it. And here you are, having a ‘vision’ for the game you want to play, for the people you want to play against, and for the type of community you want to be a part of, and what’s more, you went out and made it happen. You built it. That’s it, right there. That’s what I’m always harping on about. Kudos. And not only that – you’ve taken ownership/control of your games and built a community from your home. I’ve gotten into arguments with people online who stated how you simply cant build a community from home. I bet you’ll also start spouting such apparent ‘nonsense’ as communicating with your opponents, co-operating to make fair match ups and other ‘guff’. Frankly, as far as I am concerned, when it comes to the hobby, you are doing it right.

And you have a bunch of ‘restrictions’. Painted armies? Agreed. See above. I have no issues playing against unpainted models, but much rather painted stuff. It adds so much more to the game, and frankly, I feel people are missing out by skipping the painting and modelling (and I say that as a ‘grown up’ with limited time to paint/hobby. I appreciate though not everyone has the time to paint everything to an ‘excellent’ standard ( I certainly don’t!), but so long as ‘some’ effort has gone in, and it looks a somewhat decent ‘table top standard’, you’ll never hear a complaint from me.

No proxies? Generally yes but with caveats. ‘this coke can is a dreadnought’? fair enough. Im against that kind of malarkey. That said, its not cut and dried. I hope you are open to conversions (the line between proxy/conversion can be quite fine at times..). Similarly, alternative third party models that look identical/better’ is a big one for me. Anvil Industry’s Black Ops (http://anvilindustry.co.uk/Black-Ops/Black-Ops-Fireteam) are amazing stand-ins for Space Marines their Republic and Unity Council infantry (http://anvilindustry.co.uk/AFTERLIFE/Republic/Republic-Grenadiers) or Dreamforge’s Eisenkern infantry (http://dreamforge-games.com/collections/infantry/products/eisenkern-stormtroopers-20-man-set) would do great for carapace armoured guard, Space Marine Scouts or Stormtroopers. Frankly, there are some amazing model lines out there and I think its an absolute shame to arbitrarily ban some of these for the simple reason that they don’t have a ‘GW’ stamp on their bums, when they’re perfectly adequate for purpose, and frankly, look absolutely stellar. Then there are the usual exceptions to ‘no proxies’, ranging from ‘Oh damn, I forgot my Chaplain’ to ‘mind if I try something silly’ and use X instead of Y?

No WAAC players? Yup. Surprisingly, I have to agree with you here. I love tournaments, but make a distinction between being ‘competitive’ and being ‘waac’. Competitive is fine. Competitive is great. However, ‘all the competitive, all of the time’ can get tiresome and leads to rapid burnout, if you ask me. However, WAAC players are distinct from ‘competitive’ – they’re a distinct subset of gamers that exist across every spectrum, whether it is casual at all costs scrubs or noobstalking win at all costs PITAs. Its got nothing to do with casual, or competitive, and everything to do with lousy social dynamics, bullying, selfish, smug and condescending attitudes and frankly, its not something I get involved with out of choice. As you say, its about enjoying the hobby with cool looking armies on cool boards played at a chilled pace while having a laugh (and a beer sometimes!).

Age limit? Yup. I’m in my thirties (just). I don’t want to play around kids or teenagers, generally. With respect, I find I am at a point in my life where I have a lot less in common with college ‘kids’ and much prefer hanging out with my peers who are at the same place as I am in life and who I have more in common with. You get older, your perspective changes – that sort of thing.

As you say, it’s about enjoying the hobby with cool looking armies on cool boards played at a chilled pace while having a laugh with mates, and maybe a few beers (or tea). You’d be surprised how much easing off on the ‘arms race’ gets ‘dormant’ players out of the woodwork, and gets ‘extinct’ players active and involved with the game. We mainly play with a group of 4 at a friend’s house on Friday evenings – mainly historicals but some sci-fi and so on. We very much embrace the ‘home brew’ and ‘laid back’ approach and if anything, a more sedate pace is quite a refreshing change for me. Last few weeks have been painting evenings, and I’ve gotten loads of my LOTR ‘historicals’ done. Another group of people I play with are fellow WMH players. I got talking to them after a masters a few years ago, and we all found ourselves, by coincidence to be in the same place in life. Wives, girlfriends, dogs, kids, mortgages, jobs, other hobbies/interests/commitments, and none of us had the time to properly ‘chase the WMH meta’ and being honest, none of us were entirely enjoying the experience of playing against some of the ‘big sharks’ that swim in the tank– they’re nice guys, but play at a level/pace/intensity and understanding that is beyond us frankly and which none of us really enjoy or have the time/interest to keep pace with. And over the course of a few conversations and traded numbers we ended up with us folks meeting up regularly for ‘game days’ amongst ourselves, and playing at a more laid back pace in a friendly environment, sometimes at stores, sometimes at homes. We’ve got a few new guys coming into it through this way too, and its really enjoyable. As you say, the numbers you get by approaching it this way are quite surprising – you have a dozen players actively involved, or semi-involed, or working on projects. We probably have the same, if not more. The fact you do it in a more remote location is all the more impressive in terms of what you have built.

So long as what you are doing doesn’t become some kind of ‘elitist club’ there shouldn’t be any issues. I don’t think you are being unfair, but I can see why people might not want to join – again, ‘play with likeminded folks’ works generally, but for some, your way of playing mightn’t be their idea of ‘fun’. And they’re not necessarily wrong.

All I can say is keep it up Gordie. If you find yourself near Edinburgh, send me a message. There’s a beer in it.

I'd not be interested in a club that required all GW minis, but still I'm tempted to say no snobbery. However, before I commit, I'd be curious to hear you clarify what you mean by.

- "I would even decline those who do the 'technically' 3 colour minimum paint job". Did people know ahead of time you had specific standards for the degree of painting required? Exactly how well does a mini have to be painted to be allowed on the table and how well are those standards enumerated and understood?

and

- "No Proxies" Does this simply mean that everything is WYSIWYG in terms of gear, armament and size, or does it also mean only GW figures and no alternate figures at all? Would Victoria or Anvil Industries figures be acceptable? Would properly converted historical models or models from other games that meet a 40k aesthetic and satisfy WYSIWYG be acceptable? What about scratchbuilds?

Post 2016/05/10 14:58:59 Subject: Am I really a painting snob?

To offer the other perspective.

Playing table-top miniature games is an experience wholly unlike anything in an RTS or other video game, and some people really enjoy the gaming aspect.

It's easy to spend 30 minutes clipping and assembling a squad with no paint, primer, or sanding/line removal.

It's not easy to find a way to paint that army if you are a terrible painter, don't want to pay someone else to do it, or don't know what you want your final army list to look like.

For those folks, (I was one), it can be hard to fathom why some guy won't just be cool and play the game, because the game is why we buy these expensive mini's, right?

I've never been denied a game based on paint, but I've seen someone do it, and the rest of the stores response was like.. "Oh. Look at Mr. Fancy pants. Fine, he can not play a game."

We are a close-knit group, and took it as insult he told a really nice guy to bugger off because his plastic wasn't pretty.

Overall, I'm tolerant of any gaming preferences. Just thought I'd offer perspective.

Are you a snob? Probably not.
Are you elitist? Maybe. Not associating with others who don't meet your standards is kinda the definition of the word.
Are you doing something wrong? Nope!

What I'm addressing is the attitude that people that don't paint are lesser for it.

Also, is globbed on paint better than nothing at all? Paint so thick you can't see the details? But sure, keep your holier than thau attitude about plastic toys that you make "Pew! pew!" noises with.

You know, at this point it's not even worth addressing. You guys clearly seem to have your opinion on how exactly this game should be played and I'll leave you to that in good conscience. Just please, please never darken the door of my shop, as I would never want to play you.