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I ran into a few rules issues this weekend during the GD tournie.  Obviously, the games are over and the issues had been resolved at the time.  But, I'd like to get some more definitive answers in case similar situations arise in the future.

Scenario 1:  Two units are engaged and locked in combat near a terrain feature (a crater built into the table).  The units are about an inch away from the terrain.  A third unit moves through the terrain and charges into the combat.  Question 1: does the charged unit count as behind cover and thus initiave 10?

Scenario 2:  A unit is about to be charged, with the majority of its models in cover, but a single line of models out of cover.  Question 2: Would the charging unit have to take a difficult terrain check, as the models would have to pile into the models in cover during the charge? 

Scenario 2A:   A number of the charged models in the unit from scenario 2 are in cover, but not in base countact.  Question 3:   Do those models in a unit that is charged, that are in cover, but not in base contact, count as initiative 10?

Scenario 3:  A unit has the ability to ignore difficult terrain in movement.  This unit is forced to fall back through terrain.  Question 4:  Does this unit halve its Fallback rate as it is moving through terrain, regardless of its ability to ignore terrain?

Just because I am unfamiliar with them, Question 5: Which Blood Angels units have the Furious Assault ability?  Termies?  Marines?  Scouts?

Any and all help is greatly appriciated.

1: I don't think so, the unit has to be charging into terrain. Technically neither unit was in terrain, so the charge should have happened normally.

2: Whether a unit can charge another depends on the closet model. Therefore when you charge the closet model has to move the min. to reach the unit. All the others wrapp around. The charging unit might need a DT to reach the models in cover, but to ensure the charge it's always best to wrap around those modes out of cover. I can't remember if the charge unit gets the Int. 10 bonus or not.

2A: Can't remember

3: I don't know, it would be helpful if you tell us what unit it is.

1) Page 39 of the rulebook: After the first round of combat, cover provides no benefit to the defending unit. Even though a unit was being charged, it was already past the first round of combat.

2) You would only have to take a Difficult terrain check if any of your models would be charging through difficult terrain.

2A) Yes. Engaged models fully fight whether they are in base contact or not. If they were in or behind cover when charged, then they strike with the cover bonus.

3) Depends on the unit, but if they ignore terrain during their movement, and the fallback movement is enough to take them past the terrain, then they would not halve the distance rolled. Only if their movement actually takes them into or through the terrain would the distance be halved.

5: ALL blood angels get furious charge mate. Dreads, Termies, scouts, tacs- the works.

Scenario 1: Two units are engaged and locked in combat near a terrain feature (a crater built into the table). The units are about an inch away from the terrain. A third unit moves through the terrain and charges into the combat. Question 1: does the charged unit count as behind cover and thus initiave 10?

Any unit that moves through cover to charge boosts the initiative to 10 for the squad they assault. That said unit being in combat already has nothing to do with it and the rules are clear here.

Scenario 2: A unit is about to be charged, with the majority of its models in cover, but a single line of models out of cover. Question 2: Would the charging unit have to take a difficult terrain check, as the models would have to pile into the models in cover during the charge?

The majority of the assaulted unit is out of cover, so no bonus for being in cover.

Scenario 2A: A number of the charged models in the unit from scenario 2 are in cover, but not in base countact. Question 3: Do those models in a unit that is charged, that are in cover, but not in base contact, count as initiative 10?

Go by majority.

Scenario 3: A unit has the ability to ignore difficult terrain in movement. This unit is forced to fall back through terrain. Question 4: Does this unit halve its Fallback rate as it is moving through terrain, regardless of its ability to ignore terrain?

No.

Just because I am unfamiliar with them, Question 5: Which Blood Angels units have the Furious Assault ability? Termies? Marines? Scouts?

All the above.

I'm gong to answer these and THEN read everyone else's answers on the thread

"Scenario 1: Two units are engaged and locked in combat near a terrain feature (a crater built into the table). The units are about an inch away from the terrain. A third unit moves through the terrain and charges into the combat. Question 1: does the charged unit count as behind cover and thus initiave 10?"

The book actually is confusing on this, since it notes that 'behind cover' and 'in cover' are the same thing, while clearly they are not. I would be of the OPINION that 'behind' cover would constitute being infinitely close to 'cover' (on the other side of) without being in it...from the perspective of the charging model.

"Scenario 2: A unit is about to be charged, with the majority of its models in cover, but a single line of models out of cover. Question 2: Would the charging unit have to take a difficult terrain check, as the models would have to pile into the models in cover during the charge?"

You would determine which model would be moved first (closest to closest) when charging. If the closest model in the unit being charged is in cover, then a difficult terrain check would be required.

"Scenario 2A: A number of the charged models in the unit from scenario 2 are in cover, but not in base countact. Question 3: Do those models in a unit that is charged, that are in cover, but not in base contact, count as initiative 10?"

Sure. Do the non-touching models as I10 if they're in a unit that was charged while in cover. As long as they can legally make attacks in combat. There may be some strange wording discrepancy (sp?) here in the rulebook, but I can't think of it at the moment.

"Scenario 3: A unit has the ability to ignore difficult terrain in movement. This unit is forced to fall back through terrain. Question 4: Does this unit halve its Fallback rate as it is moving through terrain, regardless of its ability to ignore terrain?"

Falling back is considered moving.

"Just because I am unfamiliar with them, Question 5: Which Blood Angels units have the Furious Assault ability? Termies? Marines? Scouts?"

All of the units you listed have Furious Charge.

Bloody T:

There are no majority rules for units in cover when it comes to close combat. Your answers regarding the majority are completely wrong and totally unsubstantiated by the rules.

Okay yakface. I don't have the rulebook right here with me but I will take your word for it.

My own interpretations of the rules in these scenarios:

1. The rulebook says nothing about charging units moving through terrain. It says you get cover benifits if you are in or behind cover. There's the issue; what is behind cover?

To me, the best explaination for cover comes from the shooting section. pg 25:"ignore cover occupied by or in contact with the firers..." Since the charging unit is in the cover, and the oppoent is not, then they do not get the benifit of cover. Otherwise, charging out of cover is just stupid, as you opponent will always get I10.

As for the 'first round of combat,' I agree that the new charge constitues a new, first round of combat between the chargers, and newly engaged models, but only if they are directing attacks against the charging unit.

2a. I think the most difficult situation. I'd have to support making a terrain check, as the rules state models must attempt to reach unengaged models. Naturally, this is yet another question that needs to be cleared by the people who write this stuff.

2b. Seems pretty clear that the newly engaged models, even not in base contact, earn the I10.

3. Again, a ruling that could easily be cleared either in the main rulebook or in the special rules entry for its unit. Still, 'ignore terrain' should override the 1/2 movement.

4. Thanks for the info. It had been a while since I faced BA.

As for the 'first round of combat,' I agree that the new charge constitues a new, first round of combat between the chargers, and newly engaged models, but only if they are directing attacks against the charging unit.

But we are not looking at whether or not the defenders are in the first round of combat with a charging unit. If the defending unit is already locked in combat then it does not benefit from cover (page 39):

"After the first round of combat, fighting is assumed to have swept into the cover, so no further advantage is gained by models in it."


It is cut-and-dry in this case.

For a unit to get the benefits of cover in close combat, three things must be true of the defending unit:

1) The defending unit must be charged.
2) The defending models must be in or behind cover in relation to their attackers.
3) It must be the first round of combat for the defending unit.


In this particular case, the RAW even makes sense from a fluff point of view: how can a bunch of guys who are busy fighting already get behind cover to fend off more attackers? They can't as the combat is already assumed to have "swept into the cover".

Does a fresh charge into an existing close combat start another "first round of close combat"?

I don't think the rules address this, and that there are two correct interpretations.

Argument 1: Yes. Therefore, guardsmen vs marines in cover, charged by marines with frags, the marines with frags strike at I10, any guardsmen striking the charging marines get I10, marines already in combat strike at I4, and any guardsmen striking the marines already in combat strike at I3.
Argument 2: No. The marines with frags charging into cover stay at I4, so do the marines already in combat, and all the guardsmen stay at I3.

"Does a fresh charge into an existing close combat start another "first round of close combat"?"

i think all you have to do is apply what Yakface has already said:

"1) The defending unit must be charged.
2) The defending models must be in or behind cover in relation to their attackers.
3) It must be the first round of combat for the defending unit."

(page 39):
"After the first round of combat, fighting is assumed to have swept into the cover, so no further advantage is gained by models in it."

I thought this was only referring to the specific case where unit A charges unit B.  I didn't think it referred to any further interaction with other units that might charge in (i.e. it was a blanket statement that addresses the round after you charge into cover).

We've always played Interpretation 1 above in our games.

Is there a specific rule that states that the 'defender must be in its first round of combat' to qualify as in-cover?  I wish I had my rulebook handy, but I seem to have lost the paperback

It would seem sort of strange that a new unit launching an assault would be in its 'first round' of combat, but the defender wouldn't be (especially against that attacker).

Is there a specific rule that states that the 'defender must be in its first round of combat' to qualify as in-cover? I wish I had my rulebook handy, but I seem to have lost the paperback.

Yep, and you just quoted it in your post. defending units benefit from cover when being charged, and there is a rule that clearly specifies that they do not get this bonus after the first round of combat.

So has the defending unit been in an assault for more than one round? If yes, then it doesn't get the benefit of cover if charged by another unit.

I saw this intelligent post elsewhere and I thought I would share it with you for your benefit:

Page 39, first column, fifth paragraph:

"Models that are charged while they are in or behind cover normally fight in close combat with an Initiative value of 10. This represents the advantage of cover... blah blah blah. After the first round of close combat, fighting is assumed to have swept into the cover, so no further advantage is gained by the models in it."


Page 39, second column, first paragraph:

"Note that cover advantage applies only to models in cover that are being charged."

This covers the question concerning a unit that is already locked in combat with one enemy unit and is then charged by another. Cover has no effect in regards to initiative against the original enemy unit but still applies to the new enemy unit launching an assault.

"After the first round of combat, fighting is assumed to have swept into the cover, so no further advantage is gained by models in it."

This statement was made with respect to the initial charging unit, not subsequent charging units.

This statement was made with respect to the initial charging unit, not subsequent charging units.

You have not provided any support at all for this statement.

There is no qualifier provided, meaning that if a defending unit is in it's second round (or later) of combat, it cannot get the advantages of being in cover.

All quoted text appears under one section entitled Cover... that is my support plus the fact it is all directly related. You can no more claim that the statement does not apply than it does.

All quoted text appears under one section entitled Cover... that is my support plus the fact it is all directly related. You can no more claim that the statement does not apply than it does.

What?

How does this rules quote:

Page 39, second column, first paragraph:

"Note that cover advantage applies only to models in cover that are being charged."

Allow anyone to draw this conclusion?

This covers the question concerning a unit that is already locked in combat with one enemy unit and is then charged by another. Cover has no effect in regards to initiative against the original enemy unit but still applies to the new enemy unit launching an assault.

The rules quote does not say anything about different units charging a defending unit. It simply says that only models in cover gain the bonus, as opposed to models in a unit that is being charged that are not in cover. The quote provided does not support the conclusion you posted.


And again:

"After the first round of combat, fighting is assumed to have swept into the cover, so no further advantage is gained by models in it."

That statement has no qualifier. So your conclusion:

This statement was made with respect to the initial charging unit, not subsequent charging units.

Has absolutely no validity. The rules don't say anything to indicate that it only applies in certain situations, so it doesn't.

The sentences quoted are taken from the same passage of the rulebook and all deal with close combat in and around cover. To say that each sentence is an island with no connections to the others comes across as a bit short sighted in my opinion. Typically when people construct a discussion using several paragraphs I think it is safe to say you can take the individual sentences together... synergy if you will... the sum is greater than the total parts... that sort of thing. I realize this can be used to misrepresent statements by taking them out of context, but here this is not the case. I understand what you are saying but don't agree with your final conclusion... nothing personal there.

- BT

BGB Page 39: Models that are charged while they are in or behind cover normally fight in close combat with an Initiative value of 10...After the first round of close combat, fighting is assumed to have swept into the cover, so no further advantage is gained by models in it.

Assuming a fresh charge into an existing close combat starts another "first round of close combat":

P1: The models are charged while they are in or behind cover.
P2: It is another first round of close combat, no longer after the first round of close combat.
C1: The models fight in close combat with an initiative value of 10.

If it does not start another first round of close combat:

P3: bla
P4: bla
C2: The models do not fight in close combat with an initiative value of 10.

Personally I don't believe the rules address whether it does start another first round of close combat or not, therefore, ask your friends what they think and come to a decision.

Olinari:

It does not matter if a subsequent charging unit creates another round of close combat or not.

You must strive to break no rule to play the game ethically. While we cannot know for sure whether a new unit charging into an existing combat equals a new "first round" or not, we can and do know that the defending unit in this case is fighting a second (or subsequent) round of combat and would therefore be breaking the rules by fighting at I10.


Bloody T:

Whether or not you believe I am taking sentences out of context doesn't change the fact that what you posted before consisted of rules quotes followed by conclusions not even remotely supported by the quote. It is a very strange thing.

Beyond that, what you refer to as "synergy" is really intent of the author. You are arguing that the intent of the entire passage has convinced you of something that isn't found within the actual sentences themselves. This must be what you are saying because the entire rules section itself never directly deals with the subject of an existing combat being charged by a fresh unit, so any synergistic conclusions you have drawn are entirely of your own opinion.

Personally, if we are going to discuss intent I have a hard time understanding how anyone can read that rules passage (including the fluff text) and decide that creatures busy fighting in a combat somehow can get down in cover to surprise another charging unit. It doesn't make sense, and isn't supported by the rules.


The defending unit must be in it's first round of combat to get the cover bonus. Any other interpretation is breaking the rules.

"Personally I don't believe the rules address whether it does start another first round of close combat or not, therefore, ask your friends what they think and come to a decision."

or follow the rules!

Yo yakface - no need to get personal. I see you are trying to imply that I am using intent, which is not the case. My wife used to use singular logic such as yerself to decipher life's little secrets, but then she saw the light. Heh.