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Hey guys,

This is more a spit-balling of a proposed rule rather than a concrete rule that I'm proposing. So here's my Preliminary Thoughts:

-- Chapter Master's should be a Lord of War Choice rather than a HQ Choice. I know that many Chapter Masters will not be quite on the same level as Calgar, but these are some of the mightiest, smartest and oldest Space Marines in the service of the Imperium. I think we can afford to elevate them to something above "Just Another HQ Choice".

-- Chapter Masters should have the following Unit Type: Infantry (Character), Unique. This may not matter as much as I think it will if they're elevated to a Lord of War Choice, but I think it's worth putting in because it makes logical sense both in terms of the fluff and tabletop.
-- -- An addendum to this could be that more than one Chapter Master may be taken with the condition that they take different Chapter Tactics (e.g. You may not have two or more Chapter Masters that use the Raven Guard Chapter Tactics).

-- Toughness 4 makes sense and at the same time it doesn't for a Chapter Master. They've survived long enough and are skilled enough to be a Chapter Master. Being given Power Armour that affords them Toughness 5 makes sense to me.

-- As a minimum, their Wounds Characteristic should be at least 4. I'm not saying it should necessarily be more than 4, but it should be at least 4.

-- For the Attacks Characteristic: Same idea as the Wounds Characteristic.

-- The Initiative Characteristic should always be 5.

-- Their Armour Save should always be a 2+. Maybe tie this in with the Iron Halo as a specific type of Terminator Armour.

-- They should have the Wargear and Special Rules of a generic Captain the following:
-- -- Orbital Strike
-- -- Eternal Warrior

-- They should have access to a generic list of wargear specific to Chapter Masters. Being a Chapter Master should bring perks in terms wargear as well.


Obviously a points increase from the generic Chapter Master as found in the Codex Adeptus Astartes: Space Marines 7th Edition Codex is required, but I think these changes are worth implementing.

What are your thoughts on these ideas?

Are they too over-Power/under-powered? Or do they just need to organised in a particular way?

What are your thoughts?

Pedro Kantor belongs in the same FOC slot as a wraithknight or an imperial knight?

In a tournament or game that doesn't allow lords of war, I shouldn't be able to take Pedro Kantor?

In a game in which only one Lord of War is permitted, I shouldn't be able to take Pedro Kantor and an imperial knight (not that I'd want to run one in the first place), even though my opponent has a wraithknight?

Traditio wrote:
Pedro Kantor belongs in the same FOC slot as a wraithknight or an imperial knight?

In a tournament or game that doesn't allow lords of war, I shouldn't be able to take Pedro Kantor?

In a game in which only one Lord of War is permitted, I shouldn't be able to take Pedro Kantor and an imperial knight (not that I'd want to run one in the first place), even though my opponent has a wraithknight?

Pretty much this. Pedro is 185 pts. Hardly Lord of War material. I think that a unit should need to be 200 pts minimum to be a Lord of War. Consequently, they should move Gabriel Seth to an HQ. It is a crime that he is a LOW.

For the record, I do agree that there should be a limit on chapter masters: one per chapter.

Traditio wrote:Pedro Kantor belongs in the same FOC slot as a wraithknight or an imperial knight?

In a tournament or game that doesn't allow lords of war, I shouldn't be able to take Pedro Kantor?

In a game in which only one Lord of War is permitted, I shouldn't be able to take Pedro Kantor and an imperial knight (not that I'd want to run one in the first place), even though my opponent has a wraithknight?

On the other hand, what of the argument that people are not allowed to take Calgar? Instead being forced to use a Generic Chapter Master with their Ultramarines? I think this is a slightly flawed (though not necessarily invalid) point.

Also I have been unable to find any rule in the BRB that specifically says that I can only take one Lord of War Choice, with the only mention of such a restriction that I could find being a limit of one LoW per CAD. Is it in the BRB? Or is it in supplementary material? Also, with all the whinging I've seen about Wraithknights, maybe that's not the best example to use in you example.

casvalremdeikun wrote:Pedro is 185 pts. Hardly Lord of War material. I think that a unit should need to be 200 pts minimum to be a Lord of War. Consequently, they should move Gabriel Seth to an HQ. It is a crime that he is a LOW.

I agree: The current iteration of Pedro and other named Chapter Masters in the codex don't necessarily warrant Lord of War status. Existing named Chapter Masters (with the exception of Calgar) would need a buff before justifying the points increase and Lord or War status.

IllumiNini wrote:On the other hand, what of the argument that people are not allowed to take Calgar? Instead being forced to use a Generic Chapter Master with their Ultramarines? I think this is a slightly flawed (though not necessarily invalid) point.

Calgar is 275 points if you don't upgrade to the Armor of Antiochus (which would make his cost 285 points). (Imho, this shows just how undercosted the wraithknight is. I'm pretty sure that the Wraithknight and Marneus Calgar aren't really comparable.)

Also I have been unable to find any rule in the BRB that specifically says that I can only take one Lord of War Choice, with the only mention of such a restriction that I could find being a limit of one LoW per CAD. Is it in the BRB? Or is it in supplementary material? Also, with all the whinging I've seen about Wraithknights, maybe that's not the best example to use in you example.

There isn't one. That said, there's nothing stopping TOs and individual players from saying: "No lords of war" or "only one lord of war."

My use of Pedro shouldn't be affected. He's a 185 point model and doesn't have eternal warrior.

I agree: The current iteration of Pedro and other named Chapter Masters in the codex don't necessarily warrant Lord of War status. Existing named Chapter Masters (with the exception of Calgar) would need a buff before justifying the points increase and Lord or War status.

I don't really think that they should. There's not that much of a disparity between space marines to justify it. Sure, the chapter master is the top space marine in the chapter. But he's still just a space marine.

Crunch-wise, even Big Papa Smurf has the same stat line as any other chapter master. which is only a minor improvement over a captain (+1 wound, +1 attack and orbital strike).

Traditio wrote:
Calgar is 275 points if you don't upgrade to the Armor of Antiochus (which would make his cost 285 points). (Imho, this shows just how undercosted the wraithknight is. I'm pretty sure that the Wraithknight would beat Marneus Calgar.)

A Wraithknight should still be able to beat Calgar, but should definitely cost more than they do.

Traditio wrote:

Also I have been unable to find any rule in the BRB that specifically says that I can only take one Lord of War Choice, with the only mention of such a restriction that I could find being a limit of one LoW per CAD. Is it in the BRB? Or is it in supplementary material? Also, with all the whinging I've seen about Wraithknights, maybe that's not the best example to use in you example.

There isn't one. That said, there's nothing stopping TOs and individual players from saying: "No lords of war" or "only one lord of war."

My use of Pedro shouldn't be affected. He's a 185 point model and doesn't have eternal warrior.

And what about other people's use of Calgar? You're essentially whinging about keeping your use of Pedro while completely neglecting the Chapter Master of one of the "most important" Chapters in the game. I will concede to your point of not hindering your use of Pedro if you can propose a solution to the Calgar situation.

Also, let's assume this rule were to take root and become widely accepted: It would not be unreasonable to expect TO's to allow at least one LoW in matches as a consequence.

Traditio wrote:

I agree: The current iteration of Pedro and other named Chapter Masters in the codex don't necessarily warrant Lord of War status. Existing named Chapter Masters (with the exception of Calgar) would need a buff before justifying the points increase and Lord or War status.

I don't really think that they should. There's not that much of a disparity between space marines to justify it. Sure, the chapter master is the top space marine in the chapter. But he's still just a space marine.

Crunch-wise, even Big Papa Smurf has the same stat line as any other chapter master. which is only a minor improvement over a captain (+1 wound, +1 attack and orbital strike).

We might have to agree to disagree, then. If Chapter Masters (both named and generic) were to become Lords of War, they'd need better stat lines and/or be better units overall than they have/are currently. Even Calgar would be subject to a couple of my proposed changes. Also, consider Scouts/Neophytes vs fully-initiated Space Marines: There's more difference to them than their stat lines suggest, and I feel like these difference need to be applied to the tabletop rules, but that is a different topic. My point is that there is relative disparity between different ranks of Space Marines (even if it boils down to the armour and weapons) and the rules should (I think) reflect this. That's part of what inspired the idea behind this thread.

Traditio wrote:
Calgar is 275 points if you don't upgrade to the Armor of Antiochus (which would make his cost 285 points). (Imho, this shows just how undercosted the wraithknight is. I'm pretty sure that the Wraithknight and Marneus Calgar aren't really comparable.)

Coincidentally, my Malcador costs about 275 points (depending on which sponsons you give it) and is a LoW. Calgar's status as a LoW is just fine.

 Peregrine wrote:

Traditio wrote:
Calgar is 275 points if you don't upgrade to the Armor of Antiochus (which would make his cost 285 points). (Imho, this shows just how undercosted the wraithknight is. I'm pretty sure that the Wraithknight and Marneus Calgar aren't really comparable.)

Coincidentally, my Malcador costs about 275 points (depending on which sponsons you give it) and is a LoW. Calgar's status as a LoW is just fine.

I'm cool with Marneus Calgar being a LoW. It makes sense.

If Primarchs were part of the 40k game, they should also be LoWs.

Other chapter masters? Not so much.

Space marines aren't orks. They don't become bigger and more physically imposing the older they get.

Traditio wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

Traditio wrote:
Calgar is 275 points if you don't upgrade to the Armor of Antiochus (which would make his cost 285 points). (Imho, this shows just how undercosted the wraithknight is. I'm pretty sure that the Wraithknight and Marneus Calgar aren't really comparable.)

Coincidentally, my Malcador costs about 275 points (depending on which sponsons you give it) and is a LoW. Calgar's status as a LoW is just fine.

I'm cool with Marneus Calgar being a LoW. It makes sense.

If Primarchs were part of the 40k game, they should also be LoWs.

Other chapter masters? Not so much.

Space marines aren't orks. They don't become bigger and more physically imposing the older they get.

If Calgar has the potential to be a LoW, why do other Chapter Master not have the same ability?

Traditio wrote:
Space marines aren't orks. They don't become bigger and more physically imposing the older they get.

No, but the Calgar precedent makes it pretty straightforward: chapter masters are the kind of awesome heroes that get to be LoW. And your only argument against it seems to be "if they're LoW then I don't get to continue playing my army exactly the way I want to play it".

Peregrine wrote:No, but the Calgar precedent makes it pretty straightforward: chapter masters are the kind of awesome heroes that get to be LoW.

Correction: chapter masters can be the kind of awesome heroes that get to be LoW.

That's the precedent that Calgar sets. I freely admit this.

Not all chapter masters are made equal. Some chapter masters are exceptional and dual wield power fists at initiative.

Other chapter masters? Not so much.

Is there anything in the fluff to suggest that chapter masters are magnitudes superior to captains? Captains to honor guard?

It might actually be the other way around in the fluff. There's at least 10 captains in a chapter. there's only a "handful" of honor guard (a chapter master's personal body guard). Of those, only one gets to hold the chapter banner. Should they be HQs instead of elites and have better stats than captains?

And are all chapter masters better than all captains? Captain Lysander currently costs more than Pedro Kantor. Should Lysander be a LoW?

No. What's better is to say that some chapter masters are truly exceptional. Calgar is such a chapter master. He is a LoW.

Most Chapter Masters are not Calgar. They are just the top space marine who gets to tell the fleet gunners where to drop the nukes.

It would be like saying that commisars should be LoWs.

Traditio wrote:
It would be like saying that commisars should be LoWs.

No, because commissars are a generic HQ, and I was replying to a discussion of unique character chapter masters. I will point out that there have been rumors/discussions of making Commissar Yarrick a LoW in the past, so it's not impossible that a commissar could someday be a LoW.

And yes, I know the OP includes generic chapter masters, but also gives them buffs to justify their LoW status.

Traditio wrote:

Peregrine wrote:No, but the Calgar precedent makes it pretty straightforward: chapter masters are the kind of awesome heroes that get to be LoW.

Correction: chapter masters can be the kind of awesome heroes that get to be LoW.

That's the precedent that Calgar sets. I freely admit this.

Not all chapter masters are made equal. Some chapter masters are exceptional and dual wield power fists at initiative.

Other chapter masters? Not so much.

It might not always be the case, but more often than not, a Chapter Master will often be the sort of Space Marine that becomes a LoW. Chapter Master and the Basis for being a LoW are not mutually inclusive, but I'd be more than willing to bet that they more often than not coincide. An obvious exception could be a newly founded Chapter, but getting into those sorts of exceptions makes this issue way too complicated.

You also seem to think that I'm trying to suggest that all Chapter Masters should be able to wield two Power Fists that strike at Initiative (or something equally as powerful), which is not only false, but shows that you haven't properly read and considered my original post (which is something you have berated others for doing in the past).

Traditio wrote:
Is there anything in the fluff to suggest that chapter masters are magnitudes superior to captains?

And are all chapter masters better than all captains? Captain Lysander currently costs more than Pedro Kantor. Should Lysander be a LoW?

No. What's better is to say that some chapter masters are truly exceptional. Calgar is such a chapter master. He is a LoW.

Most Chapter Masters are not Calgar. They are just the top space marine who gets to tell the fleet gunners where to drop the nukes.

I'm not saying that other Chapter Masters should be Calgar-equivalents, and I do think you're wrong when you assert that Chapter Masters are not significantly better than other Space Marines. If that were the case, then we'd have a whole bunch of Captains running around with the same sorts of profiles and Pedro (which isn't the case). As I said just above: It might not always be the case, but more often than not, a Chapter Master will often be the sort of Space Marine that becomes a LoW. Chapter Master and the Basis for being a LoW are not mutually inclusive, but I'd be more than willing to bet that they more often than not coincide.

Traditio wrote:
It would be like saying that commisars should be LoWs.

Now you've moved from "I don't want to change my army and how I play them." reasoning to the downright ridiculous.

IllumiNini wrote:It might not always be the case, but more often than not, a Chapter Master will often be the sort of Space Marine that becomes a LoW.

How do you define a lord of war?

You also seem to think that I'm trying to suggest that all Chapter Masters should be able to wield two Power Fists that strike at Initiative (or something equally as powerful), which is not only false, but shows that you haven't properly read and considered my original post (which is something you have berated others for doing in the past).

I didn't say that. My point is that chapter masters are not all created equal. Marneus Calgar dual wields power fists at initiative.

Let that sink in. Think about that.

Big Papa Smurf.

Dual wields Power Fists.

At initiative.

He is the Chuck Norris of space marines.

The fact that Marneus Calgar is a LOW isn't evidence that all chapter masters should be. Not everyone is Chuck Norris.

that were the case, then we'd have a whole bunch of Captains running around with the same sorts of profiles and Pedro (which isn't the case).

Captain Lysander? Captain Sicarius? Captain Shrike?

All roughly about the same points cost as Pedro. In fact, Lysander is much more expensive.

Bottom line:

I don't want Pedro significantly buffed. I don't want his points cost significantly increased. He's fine where he is.

How do I define a Lord of War? Clearly very differently to you.

As for "All Chapter Masters being equal", I never necessarily said they should be. Let me sum it up for uou since you can't seem to bring yourself to understand my original post or ask me about it in order to understand:

The changes I've suggested talk generically about Chapter Masters, not any particular one. This would allow a LoW choice that is a Chapter Master to be taken for those chapters which don't currently have a named Chapter Master.

Also, I have said that all the other named Chapter Masters should be buffed to justify LoW status.

Nowhere have I said they should all be as powerful as Calgar, and nowhere have I said that existing Chapter Masters should lose their unique qualities.

Traditio wrote:
How do you define a lord of war?

Superheavy vehicle, GC, or major (fluff-wise) character. Unique chapter masters are some of the greatest heroes in the galaxy, and making them LoW is entirely reasonable.

My view on this is two-fold.
I think Chapter Masters should be LOW - or at least less of an auto-take compared to Captains.

HOWEVER

I think that they should be exponentially stronger. These guys are the toughest guys in their Chapter, and a Chapter Master of the Adeptus Astartes taking the field should be a momentous thing. I would expect to see Chapter relics tossed out on these guys, decked in ostentatious battle plate and able to stand toe to toe with some of the worst threats the galaxy throws at them.
Their current stat line does not reflect that in any way. Nor does their wargear. These are the strategic masterminds behind chapters, the figureheads of the Adeptus Astartes. Yet Ork Nobs can tear them in half with power klaws. In that state, Chapter Masters shouldn't be LOW.

Much as I usually detest Eternal Warrior being handed out like candy, but Chapter Masters, Ork Warlords*, Chaos Space Marine Overlords*, and the like should have it. All Chapter Masters should have this - the FW ones, the pre-made ones, such as Kantor, Issodon, Moloc, etc. They all should have EW - as should their similar ranked counterparts in other codexes.

I'm happy with their Toughness, Wounds, Attacks, and Initiative - EW and better wargear would be far more effective. Toughness isn't a huge issue, especially with EW, and besides, their Toughness wouldn't increase as they increase in rank, they're not Orks.
They should still be able to wear power armour, if they so wish, but most players would swap it out instantly anyways, and the choice between it and Terminator Armour should be the same as it is now. Nothing needs to change there.

I wouldn't suggest making them Unique - however, I'd impose the limitation of one per Chapter - NOT Chapter Tactic. This means we can have the Genesis Chapter's Master alongside the Mortifactors' Chapter Master - both being Ultramarine descendents and still in charge of their own forces. However, this would rely on some distinguishing of paintjobs as to which Chapter they are from.

Traditio - I see your point, and I do agree in parts. In their current state, Chapter Masters should certainly not be LOW. However, with appropriate wargear and certain Special Rules, they could easily be worth the slot. After all, these guys are meant to be one per Chapter, and there are 1000 of them around the galaxy - these guys can control entire star sectors and turn the tide of battle alone.
Also, your point about "What if I'm only allowed one LOW or none at all?" That's a house-rule, so should not play any part in this discussion. (Not to mention it being very poorly implemented - a blanket ban on LOW discriminates against the Malcador tank, which is in no way broken or OP, of Baneblades, which simply are not offenders. If whoever came up with that rule wanted to discriminate against Ta'unar's, Wraithknights, Knights, Bio-titans etc, they're using a sledgehammer to fix a glass sculpture.) As such, that particular argument is not well founded at all, and you should always be able to use Pedro.

TL;DR - As long as Chapter Masters are given use of more relic equipment/ better equipment, and receive a few special rules (EW, maybe some better Warlord Traits), then I would wholeheartedly accept them being Lords of War.

*These two unit ideas represent the next step up from Ork Warbosses and Chaos Lords, the Chapter Master equivalents of them. After all, if a Chapter Master fell to Chaos, why do they lose Wounds and stuff?

@Sgt_Smudge:

Sounds fair. How about the following:

Take the Captain Profile and make the following changes:

-- Profile
-- -- BS 4
-- -- W 4
-- -- Sv 2+
-- -- Points Cost: 185

-- Default Wargear Default to Captain's with the following changes:

-- -- Power Sword instead of Chainsword.
-- -- Plasma Pistol instead of Bolt Pistol
-- -- Add in Orbital Strike

-- Special Rules Default to Captain's with the following changes:

-- -- Add in EW

-- Options Default to Captain's with the following changes:

-- -- May replace his Plasma Pistol with a Grav Pistol [free]
-- -- May replace his Power Sword with a Relic Blade [10 pts]
-- -- Taking a Storm Shield is 10 points instead of 15 points.
-- -- Artificer Armour removed because of redundancy.
-- -- When upgrading to Terminator Armour, the Chapter Master gets a Relic Chain Blade [See Below] instead of a Power Sword, and the upgrade costs 5 points more.
-- -- The Chapter Master (Terminator Armour or not) may take items from the Chapter Master Relics list (which is something I'm yet to formulate).

Relic Chain Blade
R-; S +1; AP4; Melee; < Special Rule >

Where the unnamed Special Rule is something I feel it might need, but not necessarily.

I'm not sure what I've given the Chapter Master warrants the cost (hence the suggestion of things like increased Toughness). What would you add to, change, or remove from the above?

 IllumiNini wrote:
@Sgt_Smudge:

Sounds fair. How about the following:

Take the Captain Profile and make the following changes:

-- Profile
-- -- BS 4 What? Why? Captains are BS5 naturally, so why is a Chapter Master worse at shooting?
-- -- W 4 This is fine.
-- -- Sv 2+ I'd still prefer power armour to be the baseline, but the option for artificer must be made - cheaper if possible.
-- -- Points Cost: 185 Depends on if you keep the base equipment the same as a Captain or not.

Captain = 90
-Extra Wound =10
-Orbital Bombardment = 30, according to GW
-EW = 35, according to the old SW equipment that gave it
-Default Power Weapon = 15
This comes to 180 points.
That's not including your proposed default artificer armour (20 points) or plasma pistol (15 points), which I disagree with. Those would put the Chapter Master at 215 base.

-- Default Wargear Default to Captain's with the following changes:

-- -- Power Sword instead of Chainsword. This can work, but change to Power Weapon instead.
-- -- Plasma Pistol instead of Bolt Pistol I don't think this should be a thing. Bolt pistols are rather innate for Space Marines and I can certainly imagine an Imperial Fist preferring a bolt pistol to a plasma.
-- -- Add in Orbital Strike All fine.

-- Special Rules Default to Captain's with the following changes:

-- -- Add in EW This is fine.

-- Options Default to Captain's with the following changes:

-- -- May replace his Plasma Pistol with a Grav Pistol [free] See my previous remark on plasma pistols. Also, options for bolters, storm bolters and combi-weapons needx to be made.
-- -- May replace his Power Sword with a Relic Blade [10 pts] This is fine, if the Power Weapon is kept innate. Also include lightning claws for free, those Relic Chainblades for free, power fists for 10 points and thunder hammers for 15. Must also be able to switch pistols out for this too, and vice versa.
-- -- Taking a Storm Shield is 10 points instead of 15 points. Not sure about this. Given that they get EW now, the price might have to increase.
-- -- Artificer Armour removed because of redundancy. I don't think artificer armour should be innate.
-- -- When upgrading to Terminator Armour, the Chapter Master gets a Relic Chain Blade [See Below] instead of a Power Sword, and the upgrade costs 5 points more. Why? Power Weapon TDA guys can still exist, right? If you set AA as standard and power weapons as standard, the upgrade to TDA should be free, given that you lose the ability to Sweeping Advance for Relentless and DS. The defensive value remains the same, with the Iron Halo and 2+ armour. Also allow the Relic Chainblade to be taken by non TDA Chapter Masters.
-- -- The Chapter Master (Terminator Armour or not) may take items from the Chapter Master Relics list (which is something I'm yet to formulate). This is fine, if it works.

Relic Chain Blade
R-; S +1; AP4; Melee; < Special Rule >

Where the unnamed Special Rule is something I feel it might need, but not necessarily. Shred, perhaps? At the moment, it's a worse power maul.

I'm not sure what I've given the Chapter Master warrants the cost (hence the suggestion of things like increased Toughness). What would you add to, change, or remove from the above? An ability to customise wargear further would be nice. Mastercrafting options on wargear for 5 points, perhaps. Options for Bikes and Jump Packs if not in TDA. Combi-weapons, Special Issue Ammo, digital lasers, melta bombs, servo-harnesses, even Mastery Levels for being a Librarian Chapter Master could be implemented. These guys should be able to be tricked out like nothing else, with plenty of relics and customisation.
Some kind of Warlord Trait bonuses, to show their better grasp of tactics - a la Calgar - getting to choose a Warlord Trait from the SM Warlord Traits.
Maybe look into some pre-Heresy stuff too, and maybe their costing too.

Points made in red.

My Chapter Master got turned into a Leviathan Siege Dreadnought

There is NO WAY he wouldn't be a LoW

Sgt_Smudge: Everything you've said sounds fair and I agree with/can get on board with. The Bs4 thing was a mistake; it was meant to be BS 5 haha

Traditio wrote:
For the record, I do agree that there should be a limit on chapter masters: one per chapter.

Don't the white consuls have 2?

 =Angel= wrote:

Traditio wrote:
For the record, I do agree that there should be a limit on chapter masters: one per chapter.

Don't the white consuls have 2?

They do indeed, but I if I remember right one of them typically stays back at their home world to help keep things orderly. The other Chapter Master is the one who runs around the galaxy smiting the heretics