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Made in ca
Violent Space Marine Dedicated to Khorne



Someplace someplace Darkplace

I am returning to the hobby after many years removed. The last time I played would have been back in 5th. Reading the new rules I'm finding myself overwhelmed with the changes. Most notably the removal of force org. I think I've got a grasp on things tho, and while I don't quite like the restrictions of formations it seems they offer benefit.

I plan on playing demons. I've got a good collection from previous years and will pickup what I need to finish the force. I prefer khorne or nurgle, but can see the value of tzeentch. (No models for any tizz so probally staying away from them for now)

My primary opponents:

A tau gun line. Featuring ruptures, storm surge, and it uses a few of the new formations. One that makes drones better, another that allows 3 units to fire at once and another I can't remember. (Hunter cadre?) it uses the new kayoun book.

Units wise, lots of marker drones, a few units of firewarriors, some crisis suits, at least 4 broadside, 2 riptide, and a storm surge.

Next is a chaos warriors player. He brings cultists, vindicators, sorcerers (rolls invisibility like every game) sometimes hell blades, mauler fiends (The shooty things) and lots of em, plus a few other things.

Space Marines. Ultra smurfs. This one has a good amount of those new small fliers, many tac and dev squads, sometimes termies, dreads and the odd vindicator or predator.


The tau and chaos pose the biggest challange.

I like the idea of the murderhorde and tally band, plus the ability to summon a bunch of extra demons into the battle. Also the infernal tetrad looks fun. So - questions are, how should I best go about building a decent competitive list? (Usually 2k)

Any help with tatics and list build would be awsome and go a far way to getting back into things.

Thanks!

Something ...... something .... Dark side.... 
   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut





Hey!

For Daemons the usual competitive units in the codex for something you're thinking of would be:

Fateweaver + Belakor + Screamers + Pink Horrors + ML3 Heralds + Knight Titans

Making sure you can get invis with Belakor
Typical screamerstar formation (max unit of screamers with Herald(s) on disc)
Fateweaver is very good at controlling your warp storm, has innate rerolls built into him, now has a Strength D shot base
A Knight TItan with a 2++ invul (and debatably rerollable) is very tough to crack
Pink Horrors help immensely with the number of dice you are able to roll via psychic powers. And they can go to ground in ruins for some nice (potentially) rerollable saves
Fitting in Grimoire and Portalgylph, as they are great tools, is a good idea as well

And apparently in the FAQ you can now summon STR D Bloodthirsters if I'm not mistaken? (worth noting)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/05/21 02:07:36


 
   
Made in ca
Violent Space Marine Dedicated to Khorne



Someplace someplace Darkplace

Interesting idea. But I have nothing of tizz. Was hoping to go more khorne/nurgle - I'm better at painting those and prefer the model visuals over tzeentch.

Knight Titan and belekor seem interesting. How do I include them and keep the army battle forged or w/e it is?


Something ...... something .... Dark side.... 
   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut





For Khorne they have Strength D bloodthristers for fun,
Heralds with portalgylph or grimoire riding a juggernaut is ok but bad against tau

Here are the FW Knight rules for Chaos. It would just be a regular LOW in a CAD https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/resources/fw_site/fw_pdfs/Warhammer_40000/Chaos_Knight.pdf

Belakor had his own data slate but is now included in the daemons electronic codex edition as an HQ for CAD

Nurgle doesn't have a ton going for it right now, especially vs Tau as Nurgle tries heavily on cover/shrouded and they're slow which against a mobile tau that ignores cover will never end well. My favourite Nurgle unit by far is a GUO ML3 with multiple gifts of chaos. He has a 50/50 shot of getting iron arm if you roll all 3 ML on Biomancy which would make him S9/T10 and therefore extremely hard to get rid of.
   
Made in ca
Violent Space Marine Dedicated to Khorne



Someplace someplace Darkplace

Been reading what I can - How does the murderhorde stack up? Seems like it has a lot of bodies and units - so in theory maybe it can overwhelm the tau shooting and get choppy in combat? Spice up with a d thirster and some princes for fun? I just have no idea how to outfit the formation.

Something ...... something .... Dark side.... 
   
Made in ca
Evasive Pleasureseeker



Lost in a blizzard, somewhere near Toronto

Caedes wrote:
Been reading what I can - How does the murderhorde stack up? Seems like it has a lot of bodies and units - so in theory maybe it can overwhelm the tau shooting and get choppy in combat? Spice up with a d thirster and some princes for fun? I just have no idea how to outfit the formation.

It doesn't, especially vs. Tau...

If you really, really, *really* want to stick only to Khorne & Nurgle, then your best bet, considering how competitive your opponents seem to be, is to go for a Khorne Daemonkin force instead.
While the bulk of the CSM half of the book is just as god awful as ever, the army does have a few big points in its favour;
1. Blood Host detachment is among the best super detachments in the game!
The core formation - the Slaughter Cult, can be kept good and cheap thanks to it's ability to take small units of Bloodletters & Cultists. The most expensive required unit would be 5 Possessed, which still come in under 170pts. (ie: they cost less than a naked 10 man Tactical squad)
Add to this the almighty Gorepack, with min-sized squads of Bikers toting Meltaguns for some anti-tank, and then lots and lots of Flesh Hounds for tearing most things apart! You can also include a fair number of Maulerfiends, which while not exactly stellar, in numbers can become rather scary to deal with. (and most importantly, they're blood fast!)

2. Blood Tithe table.
This alone boosts the army from 'fun & fluffy only', into a fully competitive force. Basically, as things die, you get 'tithe pts' that you can then spend in your turn to add bonus rules to your force, such as Rage/FnP/Furious Charge, or else use to summon more Daemons, up to and including a freaking Bloodthirster!
By building your army within the confines of a Blood Host, you get even more out of the Tithe table.

The real trick to making the most out of this, is to keep your army to an extreme MSU set-up... You only get pts when units are fully wiped out. Hence, instead of taking a single unit of 16-20 Bloodletters, you're much better off taking 2-3 units of only 8, since you not only help to spread your opponent's fire power, but you also now have a possible 3 Tithe pts instead of just 1.
And yes, you even get a Tithe point for your Rhinos dying!

3. Daemons trade Instability for outright Fearless.
This is a huge deal for Khornate daemons especially, since they lack the sheer weight of attacks that Slaanesh gets, and they're also much slower at getting into melee than Slaaneshii units.
Just beware of getting your units too close to things they can't actually hurt for obvious reasons!


As for adding in some Nurgle/Be'lakor? Those can be tacked on through either a basic Codex: Daemons CAD, or else taken as an Allied detachment. However, with a Khornekin army, it's best to keep these additional forces to a minimum, since only your Daemonkin units will ever produce/gain from the Blood Tithe table...

Be'lakor as always is a stand out addition, as he can still throw Invis onto things like a Str.D 'Thirster or larger Flesh Hound unit.

Likewise, getting a Nurgle Herald and a small unit of Plaguebearer to hide him in isn't a bad idea either... Give the Herald the Doomsday Bell (from CotW campaign book), and every enemy model will suffer -1Ld! Quite handy for an army that will be relying on breaking things in combat. (though it's still far more competitive when combined alongside a high Slaaneshii presence, as it makes Psychic Shriek spam absolutely terrifying!)
Or you could give it to a tooled up GUO and hope he rolls Iron Arm, but that's rather costly in pts, uses up an HQ slot that could be spent on Be'lakor, and is far from a guarantee...

 
   
Made in ca
Violent Space Marine Dedicated to Khorne



Someplace someplace Darkplace

Thank you so much for the suggestions 626!
(And everyone else for chipping in )
So here is my initial main idea following the above suggestions. The plan here is simple. Reserve almost everything i can, deep strike in with MSU and charge next turn. If I die to interceptor or manage to kill things either way it's pts to the tally - and hopefully I'm summoning In replacement units quickly, or turning commander disposable into a thirster. I'm not a big fan of chaos warrior models, so I'll probally avoid the mauler fiend, bikers, and so on... BUT! Plan!

So: demonkin list 2k
Slaughtercult
Inc:
1 chaos lord, (Bolt pistol chain axe) - this guy finds cover out of sight in a corner and waits to ascend.
5 units of 8 blood letters, 3 with "full command" - all held in reserve for the deepstrike. With formation instruments and banners - once one comes in hopefully the rest follow quickly without scatter and can provide a sudden "oh crap" surge of bodies that can outlast the incoming fire. (Or generate tally pts wich just allow me to bring in more)
1x 5 man unit of possessed. (The 1st distraction carnifex)

Charnel cohort
Demon prince, armor, flight, blade of bloodshed (the second distraction carnifex)
2x 8 blood letters (no command) - these guys also reserve or deploy in cover to draw fire and maybe control a few objectives. Also - distractions!
5 flesh hounds distraction carnifex #3! Also, here tk hopefully draw some overwatch fire from my huge charge when it Happens if I can time there arrival. Or at minimum maybe force the enemy to stay backfield and away, limiting or restricting table space. (Battlefield control unit?)
3 blood crushers. Same job as the hounds.

Lord of slaughter
Bloodthirster of impotent rage - should be self explanatory. Hopefully he gets a buddie within a few turns

Allied
Belekor. Makes the thirster invisible, otherwise finds cover, uses shrouded and can be psychic badass / distraction unit.

The formation combos give me:

Ability to wipe a unit of it fails a morale - gaining the tithe pt faster, reroll to warlord trait, And get a free bonus effect when spending said pts, the cohort gets reserve roll and so forth shenanigans, and I get 1 free tithe point every turn. Hopefully I can summon in 2-3 extra units of blood letters, and 1 thirster. The "plan" is to get my reserves in and get them stuck in, and make a mess of the enemy's backfield, bring in a few summoned units to back them up, and then mid game when it's needed, uppercut with the second thirsters arrival - wich gives me 4 flying monsters. (And a total of 56 demons not counting the beasties, possessed, summons, or Calvary across 7 units.)

It also presents a rock and a hard place for the other guy. I have lots of distraction units, small and cheap. Forcing him to ignore and spread fire to avoid killing them and deny the tithe, or he wipes em out and gives me those tithe points faster, but if he ignores even one... And it makes combat - that removes something from shooting the rest of the army, allowing me to get more units into the fight. (And the army has 12 units not including belekor or the d thirster or chaos lord - 4 of wich can literally just draw fire and die to earn me those nice 4 pts giving me possibly 6 in turn 2 or more if I can kill something... Just that closer that quick to thirster #2 showing up. )

Now; this idea may be entirely foolhardy and a total bust - so PLEASE. let me know how this plan stacks up. I have never played a game with this rule book (demonkin) and I may be totally wrong on many of these ideas. So if I can trim, change or tweak to be more effective and competitive - I really would appreciate the continued advise. - before finalizing the 4th mortgage needed to get all these models. However I have already booked the leg removal appointment at the local gw finelimb collection depot, so I am "somewhat" committed.

Thanks!


This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/05/22 09:13:29


Something ...... something .... Dark side.... 
   
Made in ca
Evasive Pleasureseeker



Lost in a blizzard, somewhere near Toronto

Your main issues in your proposed list ideas are;
1. No viable anti-tank. Transports especially are still a thing, especially anything that's a skimmer and/or comes at a steep discount like what Codex Marines/DA's/SW's can spam through their super detachments.
IoM armies, Orks & Chaos in general will also still put some decent armoured support on the table, especially Orks who love to run Battlewagons for example.

2. Nothing is really that scary in combat...
Sure if enough Bloodletters all hit home at once, but you've ignored most of the really big threats the army is capable of throwing down.

Honestly, I'd look to something built around;
Slaughtercult:
- Chaos Lord w/Jugger, SoC, Kor'lath - 'Axe of Becomes a Bloodthirster'
- 2-3x 8 Bloodletters
- 5x Possessed + Rhino
- 2x 8 Cultists
- 1-2 units of 2-3 Chaos Spawn

Gorepack:
- 2x 3 Bikers w/2 Meltaguns + Combi-Melta (I know you said you hate bikes, but seriously, this is your best source of real anti-tank!)
- 8-10 Flesh Hounds (Gorepack Hounds gain HoW hits, which makes an already great unit even better.)
You can add in more Hound units, which isn't a terrible idea by any means - Gorepack Hounds are the best damn unit in the whole codex!

War Engines:
- Soul Grinders
- Fiends. (Forge w/Hades cannons if you want more anti-tank, otherwise Maulers for bum rushing the enemy)

Lord of Slaughter:
- Bloodthirster of Insensate Rage

Allied Codex: Daemons detachment:
- Be'lakor
- 11x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (gives Be'lakor +2WC's on top of his 3 + D6, helping to ensure that even on a bad roll, you still have enough charges to throw out Invis)


Things to keep in mind:
1. The Chaos Lord can join a unit of Flesh Hounds, which will also have the added bonus of conferring the unit's Scout special rule to your hyper-killy Lord! On the flip side, the Lord brings some much needed, at-initiative ap2 + the occasional Instant Death attack.
When he (inevitably) dies, his axe then turns him into a Bloodthirster of Unfettered Fury. (ie: the basic one)
As for not being able to apotheosis him onto a 'Thirster? Well, you have two Cultist Champions who are still characters, and thus, viable targets for such an honoured sacrifice!

2. Gorepacks are the army. Especially against more competitive lists, you pretty much have to resign yourself to the fact that the Gorepack (and thus Bikers) are a necessary evil for a Khornate force...
Basic CSM's cost far too much, especially in a Khornekin force where you have to pay for 8 base AND get the relevant MoK cost added on top of an already awful unit. Hence, Bikers are your main source of special weapons, since they combine speed, cost effectiveness, and maximise the number of special weapons they can take at basic unit size. (basically, they do everything right that basic Chaos Marine do horribly wrong!)
Flesh Hounds within a Gorepack pretty much have no equal.

3. Bloodletters are actually really bad at their one job!
Sad but true, the Bloodletters aren't really showing up for their killing potential, but rather, because they're so damn cheap and give Tithes pts much more efficiently than anything else bar Cultists.
When it comes to killing power, you're looking at the likes of Chaos Lords on Juggers, Flesh Hounds, 'Thirsters, Soul Grinders/multiple Maulerfiends hitting the same unit, Flesh Hounds, Chaos Spawn... did I mention about the Flesh Hounds!?


Another allied option to try out, is to take the new Cyclopia Cabal from the updated Black Legion supplement... Don't bother with any Marks on the Sorcs (it only makes them worse actually!), slap them all on bikes, and then join them either to an existing bike/Hound/Spawn unit, or else ally in some MoN Bikers from the CSM codex. (T6 ablative shields + Power fist Champ)
You can roll their powers each 1 Telepathy (and default to Psy Shriek), then 2 Biomancy powers, hoping for Endurance and at least one Iron Arm... Makes a great little Deathstar, though is definitely pts heavy.

 
   
Made in ca
Violent Space Marine Dedicated to Khorne



Someplace someplace Darkplace

So should I trim the number of blood letter squads then? I could take the minimum (2 for the slaughter cult and 2 for the cohort), freeing up pts to bring in some more hounds and maybe a soul grinder it 2?

The meta in my area and the lists above don't feature heavy in transports, most armor is offensive, like vindicators, dreads and so on. Those *should* I hope be easily dealt with via the d thirster or princes.

Working on an updated list with the tweaks. Thanks for continued advise!


Something ...... something .... Dark side.... 
   
 
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