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Okay so I am not really a spess muhreen fan, but I am thinking of putting a dark angel army together as they are the least boring of the spess muhreens. Dark angels have green regulars, cream termies and black bikes, so from a painting perspective are much more interesting than your standard issue wall of primary colour marines like the space smurfs or the bloodnuts. So what I'd like is to get a dark angel army together that is more or less evenly split between Deathwing, Ravenwing and Joe Ordinary Dark Angels. Such an army would have to be xbox hueg if it included a battle company of Joe Ordinaries to get the free gun boxes, bigger than I'm really interested in anyway. So I'm wondering if the free boxes are really worth the tac tax? Filling up a medium point list with pleb marines you don't really want just to get free boxes you didn't really want either doesn't leave much left over for cool stuff, so is it really worth it? Opinions please.

I believe that you may be looking at this the wrong way.

All the hype and RAEG surrounding the double demicompany (and ensuing free transports) isn't due to their destructive abilities. Truthfully, full companies often have moderate to sub-par offensive capabilities. It is instead for the incredible advantage it gives in objective based games. The major strengths are:

1) 10 free rhinos/razorbacks/drop pods

2) Said transports and their occupants having objective secured

Have you ever tried beating 20 objective secured units in any sort of maelstrom mission? It's very difficult. It epitomises MSU.

To summarise, whilst tacs are average, the obj sec and the fact that their DT are free (hence mitigating their points cost to a certain degree) are what make them so difficult to defeat.

 lion_el_johnson wrote:
I believe that you may be looking at this the wrong way.

All the hype and RAEG surrounding the double demicompany (and ensuing free transports) isn't due to their destructive abilities. Truthfully, full companies often have moderate to sub-par offensive capabilities. It is instead for the incredible advantage it gives in objective based games. The major strengths are:

1) 10 free rhinos/razorbacks/drop pods

2) Said transports and their occupants having objective secured

Have you ever tried beating 20 objective secured units in any sort of maelstrom mission? It's very difficult. It epitomises MSU.

To summarise, whilst tacs are average, the obj sec and the fact that their DT are free (hence mitigating their points cost to a certain degree) are what make them so difficult to defeat.

Alright so it is worth it for auto-winning maelstrom missions. ObSec can be had through a regular CAD though and there are only going to be at most 6 objectives on the table, so how many ob sec units are really needed to have that game aspect covered adequately? The battle company composition is pretty predictable and if it is common enough then won't non-SM players optimise against it? I guess what I want to hear is that SM are viable without battle company shenanigans because it seems such a boring army composition.

The long short of it is with a full battle company you're essentially playing the long game; you have so many units to cover all of the objectives that it's simply a matter of waiting the 6 turns out to eventually cap all the objectives.

At least that's what I gathered. I have yet to face one because no one here actually OWNS that many transports.

On a related note what would a list tailored to beat a SM Battle Company in Maelstrom look like? How effective would it be? Drawing from any codex whilst being mindful of allied limitations.

I'm guessing you'd want to have a decent amount of Obj Secured Troops that can kill rhino eq and marine eq reasonably quickly whilst also being resilient against them. A barebones battle company has no air defence so some ground attack flyers optimised for killing rhino & marine eq would be an option.

There is a guard formation called the Emperor's Blade (1 ccs, 3 vets, all with chimeras/taurox, & 1-3 hellhounds) which gives all units in the formation preferred enemy against enemy units within 6" of a objective marker. As well as Objective secured. That might be useful.

You'd want to max out on AP3 weapons for taking out marines and strength 7+ weapons for taking out the transports.

 SolarCross wrote:
On a related note what would a list tailored to beat a SM Battle Company in Maelstrom look like? How effective would it be? Drawing from any codex whilst being mindful of allied limitations.

I'm guessing you'd want to have a decent amount of Obj Secured Troops that can kill rhino eq and marine eq reasonably quickly whilst also being resilient against them. A barebones battle company has no air defence so some ground attack flyers optimised for killing rhino & marine eq would be an option.

There is a guard formation called the Emporer's Blade (1 ccs, 3 vets, all with chimeras/taurox, & 1-3 hellhounds) which gives all units in the formation preferred enemy against enemy units within 6" of a objective marker. As well as Objective secured. That might be useful.

Really the best way is taking an army that can pop transports extremely quickly. They're really not that bad if you manage to de-mech the company before it can spread out. The problem is its best done as a white scars battle company which means they have a 12 inch scout to get where they need.

I play daemons and I usually do well but my list is pretty optimized to fight them because I bring stuff to kill hordes of jetbikes which happens to be pretty decent at killing marines as well.

 SolarCross wrote:
On a related note what would a list tailored to beat a SM Battle Company in Maelstrom look like? How effective would it be? Drawing from any codex whilst being mindful of allied limitations.

I'm guessing you'd want to have a decent amount of Obj Secured Troops that can kill rhino eq and marine eq reasonably quickly whilst also being resilient against them. A barebones battle company has no air defence so some ground attack flyers optimised for killing rhino & marine eq would be an option.

There is a guard formation called the Emporer's Blade (1 ccs, 3 vets, all with chimeras/taurox, & 1-3 hellhounds) which gives all units in the formation preferred enemy against enemy units within 6" of a objective marker. As well as Objective secured. That might be useful.

You'd want to max out on AP3 weapons for taking out marines and strength 7+ weapons for taking out the transports.

The advantage of MSU is target saturation, none of the items a battle company are bringing are amazing, its that you have maybe 10-14 units which can be combat squaded, and then have 5-7 free transports, so you have 25-35 Objective secured units. Most tournament armies would have a hard time killing half your objective secured units in a 6 turn game, and in a tournament the game is probably ending turn 4 or 5.

The reason most tournament armies have a hard time is because many armies run a deathstar unit or two, and essentially have just 1 or 2 units doing all their killing-often with units that are below 10 model count, then they have some units zipping around to try and contest/score against what they expect to be other weak min sized units.

Things which counter battle company:

1- Fast horde armies which can multi charge and have minimum str 4 on the charge. Shoota trukk boz/nob with powerklaw in a trukk spam. Endless Hormagaunts with furious charge upgrade paired with trygons. [of course these are not considered tournament viable usually]
2- Knights. Not 1 knight, but an army of knights. They will get into assault turn 2 and if they choose targets they won't wipe out before I1 the rolling stomps (thanks to the new faq) can potentially cause a lot of collateral damage
3- Battle companies. Rock can at least tie rock here. Your OS units can deny other OS units.
4- AM, AM can bring a lot of tanks and units which usually don't shine in tournaments due to the types of units people take. AM against battle company games can often see the AM do quite well with their large amount of mid strength firepower(against vehicles), and large amount of low strength shots(against infantry)

of course outside of #3 above, most of those do not fare well in tournaments overall.

In my experience, absolutely. When I compared the firepower my standard 2k list brings to my 2k Lion's Blade it isn't even close. It's also better in melee because if you must take mandatory characters and assault Marines you may as well equip them to fight. Combined with all the obsec it's a no brainer if you've got the models. My list has lost twice, both times to max cheese Tau, and rolled over everything else. Unless you are going Ravenwing the Lion's Blade beats out CAD in every way IMO.

Here's a quick example of why it's better. My standard 2k list had 45 guys and 8 vehicles. My Lion's Blade has 67 guys and 12 vehicles for the same exact points.

I'm tempted by the sheer volume of tank shock!

Battle Companies are ridiculously good. That is all that needs to be known at this time on the subject. White Scars Dev squads in there dominating midfield with excellent fire, tons of tanks making a mockery of small arms fire while they output huge numbers of special weapons you cant hurt or eliminate until a free shell is removed... Its good. add in the Razorback firepower if that's your thing. all incredibly silly to deal with. while i have had success against it, it is one of the...less fun... things to have to face.

Worth the tax? yup.

Is it worth the free Objective Secured units?

Oh god yes. Gladius and Lion's Blade don't rely on tabling the opponent, they rely on having too many units that score Objectives.

And they do this very, very well.

I thought only troops and their dedicated transports are obsec in battle companies. It's a formation command bonus and it reads like: "Troops in this detachment can super score...".

 Frozocrone wrote:
Is it worth the free Objective Secured units?

Oh god yes. Gladius and Lion's Blade don't rely on tabling the opponent, they rely on having too many units that score Objectives.

And they do this very, very well.

It's a very unfluffy approach to war for marines though, cheap disposable hordes winning through attrition. Marines have just become the new Imperial Guard only more so.

No, Battle Demi-Company just provide a blanket of Objective Secured, no specification of Troops.

Blooded Demi-Company (BA variant) only gives Troops Objective Secured. Which is garbage, because a CAD provides flexibility.

 SolarCross wrote:

 Frozocrone wrote:
Is it worth the free Objective Secured units?

Oh god yes. Gladius and Lion's Blade don't rely on tabling the opponent, they rely on having too many units that score Objectives.

And they do this very, very well.

It's a very unfluffy approach to war for marines though, cheap disposable hordes winning through attrition. Marines have just become the new Imperial Guard only more so.

Fluff means nothing in actual game play. That's why the fluff means nothing to me.

 Frozocrone wrote:
No, Battle Demi-Company just provide a blanket of Objective Secured, no specification of Troops.

Cad doesn't have specification either. It's elsewhere. Maybe in the obsec rule itself.

Martel732 wrote:

Fluff means nothing in actual game play. That's why the fluff means nothing to me.

well alright but the game play is supposed to reflect the fluff, that's why orks don't have ballistic skill 7, why eldar don't have initiative lower than 4 and why space marines don't have an armour save lower than a 4+ anywhere in the codex. If the rules make super snipers out of orks, sluggabeds out of eldar then something is amiss. Surely rules that make Mankind's finest into cheap disposible attrition mongers more so than even guard, orks or tyrannids then are those rules not also wonky?

 SolarCross wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Fluff means nothing in actual game play. That's why the fluff means nothing to me.

well alright but the game play is supposed to reflect the fluff, that's why orks don't have ballistic skill 7, why eldar don't have initiative lower than 4 and why space marines don't have an armour save lower than a 4+ anywhere in the codex. If the rules make super snipers out of orks, sluggabeds out of eldar then something is amiss. Surely rules that make Mankind's finest into cheap disposible attrition mongers more so than even guard, orks or tyrannids then are those rules not also wonky?

Mankind's finest are fodder compared to the might of the Tau and Eldar. At least, that's what the game says to me. I spend way more time playing the game than reading fluff, so why would it matter to me? I don't see in the fluff anywhere that the BA are the worst army in the galaxy, but on the table top they sure are close. Fluff means nothing. And sometimes, less than nothing.

You're assuming the battles in the fluff are fought with equal points; Everyone knows in fluff battles other armies use a points handicap against Blood Angels!

 koooaei wrote:

 Frozocrone wrote:
No, Battle Demi-Company just provide a blanket of Objective Secured, no specification of Troops.

Cad doesn't have specification either. It's elsewhere. Maybe in the obsec rule itself.

No I just checked both the CAD and Allied detachments specifically say "all troops" have ob sec. Demi-battle company in SM codex just says "units"...

 SolarCross wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

 Frozocrone wrote:
No, Battle Demi-Company just provide a blanket of Objective Secured, no specification of Troops.

Cad doesn't have specification either. It's elsewhere. Maybe in the obsec rule itself.

No I just checked both the CAD and Allied detachments specifically say "all troops" have ob sec. Demi-battle company in SM codex just says "units"...

CAD:

All Troops units from this Detachment have the
Objective Secured special rule. A unit with this special rule controls objectives
even if an enemy scoring unit is within range of the objective marker, unless
the enemy unit also has this special rule.

Battle Demi-Company:

A unit with this special rule controls Objective Markers
even if an enemy scoring unit is within range of the Objective Marker, unless
the enemy unit also has this special rule.

The 'Troops only' clause is conveniently left out for Space Marines. I can only hope it's re-inserted as per the Codex FAQs.

 Frozocrone wrote:

The 'Troops only' clause is conveniently left out for Space Marines. I can only hope it's re-inserted as per the Codex FAQs.

I think it may have been done like that on purpose. There is a Guard formation called the Emperor’s Blade that has objective secured and the wording in it says "infantry" not "troops" plainly giving the formation's company command squad (which is infantry though not a troop) ob sec as well as the vets.

A fluffier rule for the battle company would be armour save re-rolls or something. If GW wanted to sell more rhinos and razorbacks they could have made taking transports a requirement. That's basically what they did with Cadian Battle Group formations. They made taking a Company Command Squad or a techpriest a requirement for almost every formation and nevermind how daft it is for A Cadian Battle Group to have half a dozen command squads and half dozen techpriests. But if company command squad and techpriest sales are low then you gotta do what you gotta do.

So you want to have 3 full size armies? If you've got the points, I guess.

Each demi company is equivalent to about 1/4 of the size of a full battle company, so two demi companies is effectively half the strength of a full battle company.

I think if you want to combine greenwing, deathwing and ravenwing, you just shouldn't bother with the formation. Grab a couple tactical squads for your troop choices and then some Ravenwing bikes/speeders and a unit of Deathwing to taste. That way you could fit it in a game under 3000 points.

 TedNugent wrote:
So you want to have 3 full size armies? If you've got the points, I guess.

Each demi company is equivalent to about 1/4 of the size of a full battle company, so two demi companies is effectively half the strength of a full battle company.

I think if you want to combine greenwing, deathwing and ravenwing, you just shouldn't bother with the formation. Grab a couple tactical squads for your troop choices and then some Ravenwing bikes/speeders and a unit of Deathwing to taste. That way you could fit it in a game under 3000 points.

I'm as prone to "kid in the candy store" syndrome as anyone here when it comes to army composition but I think that I could have a bit of each for somewhere more like 2/3rds of 3000 points or even less. Barebones it is possible for 1500pts. But it wouldn't have 550 points worth of free stuff. That doesn't bother me too much but I don't like to field a grossly sub-optimal list even if I am not interested in WAAC cheesemongering. Actually I am now thinking I should probably just forget the idea of a Dark Angel list or any kind of SM not just because of the battle company thing but because 40k doesn't need anymore SM players, they are already half the community, lol. Half the time SM players are having to fight other SM players.. It is kind of wacky. I should pick a different faction for my second army and should probably avoid any faction with the whiff of strong cheese and go with something mid or even bottom tier. I like Eldar and Tau but both have a rep for cheese. I mean I like winning but if I win with cheese then it is not clear who won me or the cheese. On the other hand winning with an underpowered or difficult faction is a real victory especially if it was against a cheese list. I dunno I am thinking AM or CSM at the mo, maybe tyranids.

 SolarCross wrote:

It's a very unfluffy approach to war for marines though, cheap disposable hordes winning through attrition. Marines have just become the new Imperial Guard only more so.

That really depends what fluff you read. So much of the fluff around Space Marines has gotten so outlandish and hyperbolic over the years that to live up to it, one tactical marine should literally be able to take down a Wraithknight single handedly... Back in the Rogue Trader days, almost any piece of art you saw depicting more than one Space Marine showed one of them being killed. You don't see as much of that anymore. The idea is that they're vastly superior by human standards in the context of a dangerous universe, and so they are, but at the end of the day, they're still human. Put space marines against most armies" basic troops on a 1-1 basis and I think you'll find they fare pretty well. Put them up against basic Guard, which is the race from which Marines are drawn, and watch them slay. Don't forget they are basically humans who are exceptional enough that they have a far better stat line than the racial stat line of a human. Bear in mind also, that humanity is a relatively young race, and those like Eldar, Necrons, and presumably Tyranids have been evolving and perfecting their art of war for many millions of years.

You can call the Battle Company a horde because of the game principle being applied, but it's going to be the smallest horde you ever saw for the points. I think it's actually MORE fluffy than a lot of the Marine lists you see because it harnesses the power of the basic rank and file Marine (which is supposed to be the strength of the Marine Chapters), and relies less on specialist equipment (which is supposed to be treasured and rare).

 Weboflies wrote:

 SolarCross wrote:

It's a very unfluffy approach to war for marines though, cheap disposable hordes winning through attrition. Marines have just become the new Imperial Guard only more so.

That really depends what fluff you read. So much of the fluff around Space Marines has gotten so outlandish and hyperbolic over the years that to live up to it, one tactical marine should literally be able to take down a Wraithknight single handedly... Back in the Rogue Trader days, almost any piece of art you saw depicting more than one Space Marine showed one of them being killed. You don't see as much of that anymore. The idea is that they're vastly superior by human standards in the context of a dangerous universe, and so they are, but at the end of the day, they're still human. Put space marines against most armies" basic troops on a 1-1 basis and I think you'll find they fare pretty well. Put them up against basic Guard, which is the race from which Marines are drawn, and watch them slay. Don't forget they are basically humans who are exceptional enough that they have a far better stat line than the racial stat line of a human. Bear in mind also, that humanity is a relatively young race, and those like Eldar, Necrons, and presumably Tyranids have been evolving and perfecting their art of war for many millions of years.

You can call the Battle Company a horde because of the game principle being applied, but it's going to be the smallest horde you ever saw for the points. I think it's actually MORE fluffy than a lot of the Marine lists you see because it harnesses the power of the basic rank and file Marine (which is supposed to be the strength of the Marine Chapters), and relies less on specialist equipment (which is supposed to be treasured and rare).

There are a lot of good points in that. I suppose since it is free transports it is fluffy in the sense of making the marines a rapid deployment army. The trouble is only that no other army yet gets free fluff units. Orks could get free grots or boyz, coz dey is horde, AM free infantry.. Tau could get free drones. Eldar maybe some free guardians. Without that balance it does sort of mean that an SM army can put down 2000 points against his opposing players 1500pts. You are virtually getting you rank 'n' file marine for the same price as a puny guardsman or ork boy. barebones 10 guard in 2 chimera = 180 pts. barebones 10 marines in 2 razorbacks is = 140pts.

 SolarCross wrote:

 Weboflies wrote:

 SolarCross wrote:

It's a very unfluffy approach to war for marines though, cheap disposable hordes winning through attrition. Marines have just become the new Imperial Guard only more so.

That really depends what fluff you read. So much of the fluff around Space Marines has gotten so outlandish and hyperbolic over the years that to live up to it, one tactical marine should literally be able to take down a Wraithknight single handedly... Back in the Rogue Trader days, almost any piece of art you saw depicting more than one Space Marine showed one of them being killed. You don't see as much of that anymore. The idea is that they're vastly superior by human standards in the context of a dangerous universe, and so they are, but at the end of the day, they're still human. Put space marines against most armies" basic troops on a 1-1 basis and I think you'll find they fare pretty well. Put them up against basic Guard, which is the race from which Marines are drawn, and watch them slay. Don't forget they are basically humans who are exceptional enough that they have a far better stat line than the racial stat line of a human. Bear in mind also, that humanity is a relatively young race, and those like Eldar, Necrons, and presumably Tyranids have been evolving and perfecting their art of war for many millions of years.

You can call the Battle Company a horde because of the game principle being applied, but it's going to be the smallest horde you ever saw for the points. I think it's actually MORE fluffy than a lot of the Marine lists you see because it harnesses the power of the basic rank and file Marine (which is supposed to be the strength of the Marine Chapters), and relies less on specialist equipment (which is supposed to be treasured and rare).

There are a lot of good points in that. I suppose since it is free transports it is fluffy in the sense of making the marines a rapid deployment army. The trouble is only that no other army yet gets free fluff units. Orks could get free grots or boyz, coz dey is horde, AM free infantry.. Tau could get free drones. Eldar maybe some free guardians. Without that balance it does sort of mean that an SM army can put down 2000 points against his opposing players 1500pts. You are virtually getting you rank 'n' file marine for the same price as a puny guardsman or ork boy. barebones 10 guard in 2 chimera = 180 pts. barebones 10 marines in 2 razorbacks is = 140pts.

Free stuff has been a recurring feature since 2014. Blood Angels were the first to start it with free Combi/Power Weapons for a formation and discounted Rhinos/Drop Pods for Assault Marines. AdMech brought the War Convocation, Eldar can get free Heavy Weapons and SM/DA now have free transports.

Do I think it's fair? No, I would rather stick to CAD or faction specific detachments (Great Waaagh!, Baal Strike Force, Realspace Raiders etc). But formations are the way to go so, meh.

I think all the other 'dexes will get their freebies all in good time. Aren't Guard still on a 6th edition codex?

 Weboflies wrote:
I think all the other 'dexes will get their freebies all in good time. Aren't Guard still on a 6th edition codex?

Guard did get a major update with the montka campaign book. There is a ton of guard formations in there including a gladius style super formation The Cadian Battlegroup, but no freebies.. The Ork supplement waagh ghazgul added a ton of nice formations but again no freebies. Maybe the outcry over the SM codex spooked GW out of doing it again, or they only loves their spess marines. Who knows?

 SolarCross wrote:

 Weboflies wrote:
I think all the other 'dexes will get their freebies all in good time. Aren't Guard still on a 6th edition codex?

Guard did get a major update with the montka campaign book. There is a ton of guard formations in there including a gladius style super formation The Cadian Battlegroup, but no freebies.. The Ork supplement waagh ghazgul added a ton of nice formations but again no freebies. Maybe the outcry over the SM codex spooked GW out of doing it again, or they only loves their spess marines. Who knows?

Definitely the space marine one. Being spooked doesn't explain basic balancing and updates not being done.