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So, something that came up in the News and Rumour thread (as usual). The idea of including extra arms with miniatures for different options.

It's actually something they're played around with already.



The price wasn't any different to any other single infantry blister. I can't see how adding a few extra sets of alternate arms would explode the price of boxes/blisters as some are saying. Increase it in a link box, yes. But to the extent people are implying? Hardly. Personally? I'd happily pay a few extra dollars for a linked team box if it had alternate arms for different models. I hate proxying and I hate repeated models.

For example, if the Govads box had missile launcher and boarding shotgun arms for the females and rifle and sniper rifle arms for the males, in addition to what's in there already, I'd have bought 2 boxes. I'm usually not a fan of running more than 1 special weapon in a linked team (too 'all your eggs in one basket' for me), but when the HMG gets a blister release I'll either have to run the link with a sniper, HMG and missile launcher (as I much prefer to play WYSIWIG) or hit up Shae for a couple of rifle models (which gives me repeat models which I hate).

For Sekban, I actually did get another AP rifle model off Shae for this purpose. The arms can at least be moved a little to vary the pose, but the Govad Rifle pose is very inflexible. When the Haqq generic starter is redone and we get a Jannisary AP rifle, I'll be keeping my 1st edition Jannisary AP rifle around to use in the link so I don't have to fill it out with a missile launcher and HMG. This puts me off getting a lot of linked team boxes. My favourite so far was the Odalisque box, which had a Rifle, Boarding Shotgun and a pair of SMG models. No special weapons, and the Spitfire was outside the box. Still, I made sure I found the old Boarding Shotgun model in case I wanted to run 2.

Well said!

And I agree - to the point that I too would have no issues paying a few dollars more for a few more options.

Thank you Loki. You hit all the points on the head.

I'm glad to see I wasn't losing my mind and agreeing with Kan. Since we almost never agree on anything.

Also, you still haven't sold me your ITS minis Alph.... what gives?

It would need to be specific bespoke examples like that, though. CB don't do as many ball and socket type joints anymore, specific arms go to specific miniatures. So... if we're talking about a box of four minis where you get two different bodies (which is the new normal, right?) then I guess that means an extra arm for each body?

That's where their CAD technology comes in. They're taking dolls and posing them, which makes is actually very easy to do alternate arms (which is probably why that's the most common type of limited edition model these days).

A few months ago I bought the Kuang Shi box. The box photo shows four Kuang Shi, three with Chain Rifles, one with a Boarding Shotgun.

Ah well, I suppose I could proxy the last one as a Chain Rifle...

But, no! The box contains parts to allow you to build four Chain Rifle guys! It was like Christmas! How happy was I?

A more current example of alternate arms is the ORC Trooper/Aquila Guard arm swap.

Both are current, modern models done with the square peg, square hole system and the Multirifle/HMG arms are perfectly interchangeable. As in, why on earth aren't they included as options in every pack?

It's obviously not possible to provide or sculpt everything, but there's probably enough leeway to get the odd alternative loadout to ease the backlog.

Single pack models are good fodder for this, as arms can be a good way to differentiate a sculpt - we see this clearly with link boxes where we get repeat sculpts with different arms.

For example, a new Farzan model could come with Boarding Shotgun and Combi Rifle arms allowing you to build one way or the other. This cuts down on SKU's, a constant problem for CB since their range is very expansive, and lets them get some profiles on shelves that might never see the light of day. New CAD sculpting makes this much easier than the old method of physically sculpting just a new arm like the aforementioned Myrmidon.

It would be nice to have multiple build options.

 Micky wrote:
It would need to be specific bespoke examples like that, though. CB don't do as many ball and socket type joints anymore, specific arms go to specific miniatures. So... if we're talking about a box of four minis where you get two different bodies (which is the new normal, right?) then I guess that means an extra arm for each body?

I broke it down on the official forums as this:

With the way they sculpt the stuff digitally now and the method of "Arm with gun attached and gun has hand on forward grip with a detached second arm"? It's absolutely, 100% possible and it would not be such a taxing effort that it would necessitate significant design time to do such a thing. It's not going to be an instantaneous thing nor would it be feasible for every model/weapon loadout necessarily--but it is feasible enough that one shouldn't just not see it being done.

 -Loki- wrote:
That's where their CAD technology comes in. They're taking dolls and posing them, which makes is actually very easy to do alternate arms (which is probably why that's the most common type of limited edition model these days).

That's not quite how digital sculpting works, the only bit that gets reposed is the bare doll itself - then all the clothing, armour etc. has to be sculpted over the posed doll. Although obviously you're going to be able to reuse some of the hard armour parts etc.

Even then, adding in the same pair of arms holding a different weapon would be relatively fast from the design side.

 IJW wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:
That's where their CAD technology comes in. They're taking dolls and posing them, which makes is actually very easy to do alternate arms (which is probably why that's the most common type of limited edition model these days).

That's not quite how digital sculpting works, the only bit that gets reposed is the bare doll itself - then all the clothing, armour etc. has to be sculpted over the posed doll. Although obviously you're going to be able to reuse some of the hard armour parts etc.

Even then, adding in the same pair of arms holding a different weapon would be relatively fast from the design side.

The Azra'il on the good old T skeleton suggests otherwise. This suggest they sculpt the model on that frame and then pose it and load in assets like weapons, which they then need to move the arms around to hold and fingers to wrap around, etc. This isn't to say there's no effort in doing different poses, as there's a lot you need to do to make sure the new pose works. But if they're posing fully detailed models, loading in a new gun and reposing the model shouldn't be too difficult.

That's not quite how digital sculpting works, the only bit that gets reposed is the bare doll itself - then all the clothing, armour etc. has to be sculpted over the posed doll.

It all depends on how you constuct the digital dolls, and if you take the time to rig a skeleton and layer elements that can be posed on top of that. Besides the Azra'il, I'd also point to the Devil Dog w/ shotgun. CB stated they were originally just going to release the original w/ heavy pistol, but with digital sculpting it was easy to give him alternate arms. In fact the pose is slightly awkward because it was a late decision well after the original had been done. The fact is, with digital sculpting we're ALREADY getting alternate arms in each box, since a box already has 2 each of the same body with seperate arms/weapons. I'm currently waiting for paint to dry between coats on the exact same Mobile Brigada with boarding shotgun and HMG. The body is the same, but the arms and head are wildy different poses. Stands to reason that a 3rd or 4th set of arms with a combi or multi rifle would not have been so difficult to sculpt and cast on the same sprue/runner that the current arms are cast on. Would have only taken a few extra hours of sculpting time, a little extra time to 3D print the master, a few less per mold and a few more grams of pewter per box.

I stand with most that the cost of doing that would hardly add that much to the production, and I'd gladly pay the difference to have some options. At the very least, it would be nice to have a blister per faction of just weapons for conversions, especially since the ones in the Spec-Ops kits are usually of the older style

I was a bit surprised, pleasantly so, when the Guarda de Assalto came with arm options for both the multi-rifle and spitfire load-out. Extra arm options are something that CB can do. I would have had 0 complaints to pay an extra dollar or so to get the HMG load out in the Bagh Mari box, for example. ( I suspect it will be a blister or in the ASA starter)

The 'But' here is cost. Not of the metal in this case, but in making the molds (according to Palanka from the official forums some time ago.) and in packing the blisters/boxes. All the minis are hand packed, and every extra bit increases packing time for this one product. It also increase likelihood of mispacks, which cost money too. I have no idea about the numbers here. All I've seen are qualitative explanations of this.

I think at some point CB will need to consider this, simply to keep down the SKUs. This, or increasing the box size from 4 to 5. We already get 6 in a starter box, so that too is do-able.

The Azra'il on the good old T skeleton suggests otherwise. This suggest they sculpt the model on that frame and then pose it and load in assets like weapons, which they then need to move the arms around to hold and fingers to wrap around, etc. This isn't to say there's no effort in doing different poses, as there's a lot you need to do to make sure the new pose works. But if they're posing fully detailed models, loading in a new gun and reposing the model shouldn't be too difficult.

The more complex 'har-armour' designs get done as a T-model first to check everything works, they did the same with the Gecko. Then the Doll gets reposed and the layers built up again. As I mentioned, with hard-armour models like the Azra'il a lot of the pieces can be re-used, but Kalamadea's talk of skeleton and layer rigging is generally an animation technique rather than one that's cost effective or indeed time-effective for one-off or small-quantity sculpting.

It's still much faster than doing the same with traditional sculpting, but it's not as simple as saying 'Let's bend that elbow into a different pose for an alternative arm.'.

I'd guess pick and place operations are the factor that represents constant cost for CB. Moulds are one time investment and the only problem they might have, if they don't sell enough of their product for reasonable profit to justify the investment. Although it is a reasonable concern, it does make them look as if they don't trust their product or are cutting corners where they can.

CAD modelling is easy with experience and possibility to recycle old projects. It wouldn't surprise me, if they reposed certain models or at least did the problematic part of work in a single day.

Certainly simply because you made CAD model doesn't mean you won't go back to it as problems might arise with how designer wants to make the assembly and production is capable to make it. I'm sure they could have made a single head piece with the antennas, but likely at the loss of precision or rather varying results. However that's not really the point of this topic.

Silicone rubber moulds last 200-400 spins depending on the complexity of the model (i.e. how fast the mould degrades and rips), but they're relatively cheap to make in the first place.

I'd love it if boxed sets at the very least all had one extra set of arms. Even if the arms were posed identically, that extra loadout option is nice.

It would be incredibly useful for the hardcore WYSIWYG crowd that some people play in.

Totally Feasibly...
I fully understand the entire process from concept to casting including 3D.... Including a second set of arms or an alternate head isn't breaking the bank, overtaxing the Artist, or a huge jump in casting.
Not something like 1 extra head and 1 extra set of arms in a squad or starter box.

But.
That breaks Corvus business model and honestly until they reach that "GW evil empire" level I'm cool with how it is...