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Hi

I've just completed this tactics video for war walkers (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5cue7Mfsk34) and I came across an oddity. It seems you can manufacture a perpetual 4++ rerollable invul without having to snap fire by clever usage of "Reckless Abandon" and clever positioning

Can you take a look and see if my reasoning is correct? It's the "bonus build" section

It doesn't work.

a) When you Deep Strike, you count as Flat Out so you are snap shotting the turn you deploy.
b) You cannot declare a charge the turn you come in from Deep Strike, so you cannot roll for dice to charge, therefore you cannot gain the shield in the assault phase the turn you come in.

And now you are 11" from something that will charge you next turn.


.

This is proper gastly to explain: You might have misunderstood, and it took me a while to see it. The deep strike gives you a 4++ rerollable on the turn you arrive . That is fine. You fire at full BS and have a 4++ rerollable the turn they arrive. This is not in contention.

The *next* turn you can elect to jump jet move 12-18 inches and get a 4++ rerollable but have to snap fire your shooting phase. Fair enough.

Or you can assault using 3d6 to charge and get the 4++ rerollable. But you've already shot so now it's a 4++ rerollable invul but at the expense of being combat. But you get d6+1 hammer of wrath. Not bad.

This is the rules. No doubt about it.

But like I say in the video there is an eventuality not covered directly in the rules.

EldarArmy wrote:
This is propwr gastly to explain: You might have misubderstood. the deep strike gives you a 4++ rerollable on the turn you arrive . That is fine. You fire at full BS and have a 4++ rerollable the turn they arrive. This is not in contention.

You do not fire at full BS the turn you arrive, as per the Kinetic Shroud rule your move counts as moving Flat Out. You can't even shoot at all. But yes, the turn you arrive, you get a 4++ due to the Kinetic Shroud.

The *next* turn you can elect to jump jet move 12-18 inches and get a 4++ rerollable but have to snap fire your shooting phase. Or you can assault using 3d6 to charge and get the 4++ rerollable. But you've already shot so now it's a 4++ rerollable invul but at the 3xpense of being combat. This is the rules. No doubt about it.But like I say in the video there is a 3rd scenario

To get the 4++ in movement, Wasp Jump packs move 8-12" not 12-18", so I'm not really sure what you are thinking. As well, for your "assault trick" to work you are entirely dependent on;

a) Getting the reserves in. Even if you have a autarch on the board, it is not a guarantee.
b) Not scattering on the Deep Strike. You have no way to prevent the scatter, so you need to make sure you Hit.
c) You cannot shoot the turn you come in
d) Move 8-12" to get the shield and snap shot. *or* be within 11.5" to "roll 3d6 and not charge", which places you in assault range.
e) Can only move 6" with Reckless Abandon, which also does not work in ITC, or if your opponent denies you Overwatch, which quite a few can do.

This makes this highly subject to chance and extremely risky. But yes, as to your original thought, getting a persistent 4++ on corsair wasps is nothing new and has been done since the first book came out, but doing any of this means your almost 200 point unit will be doing nothing but snap shots all game and will be mostly ineffective.

Djdarknoise thanks for the discussion!

Well to answer your first point. Can Walkers go flat out? The BRB says they move like infantry, the kinetic shroud rule says vehicles go flat out but quite honestly if a walker is infantry in terms of movement then it doesn't apply.

If the "BRB != Codex " then you refer to BRB. So unaffected by flat out.

So a walker you can Deep strike and shoot and get 4++/rerollable.

Next I think you've got a little confused.

This is the *next* turn. Not the turn that the walkers arrive. I talk about the Autarch.

I am talking about the 2nd 3rd 4th turns *after* the walker deep struck. On the 2nd 3rd 4th etc turns AFTER they arrived they can indeed jump 8"-12" (as you so rightly corrected me !) *before*shooting* To snap fire and get 4++rerollable when they shoot.

But I didn't advocate doing that

I am advocating assaulting with 3d6. Which is a) after shooting. And b) applies even with a failed charge.

As to the argument you'd get counter charged: well not everything in 11.5 inch range CAN counter charge. Vehicles for example. Or would want to heavy weapons teams or tau etc. As to Scatter on Deep Strike, well you can chose where to place them to a large degree, and they can move 6" after landing (but, admittedly, after shooting)

I am just sharing how it reads to me. Your own interpretation may indeed differ but I feel I can give my own appraisal when I read the rules

The rules are quite clear.

The turn you arrive by deeps trike you get the 4++ and count's as moving *flat out* or run (the rule states run trigger the effect too)

the following turns if you either use the Wasp jump pack at movement or charging you get the 4++ rerollable, since this is when you *START* using the Wasp jump pack for first time to get the 4++ and rerollable saves.

Reckless abandon it's an additionla move, but it's not considered a run or flat out move so you can use it to get extra bonuses from the kinetic shroud.

Lord Perversor Thanks for joining in the discussion!

Lord Perversor wrote:

The rules are quite clear.

:-D not sure this is true, but ok

Lord Perversor wrote:

The turn you arrive by deeps trike you get the 4++ and count's as moving *flat out* or run (the rule states run trigger the effect too)

I think this is misleading, run causes the 4++ (non rerollable) save, as does flat out but this is the only synergy and it's not the 4++ we're debating it's the 4++ rerollable *special ability* of wasp assault walkers AND the 4++ rerollable save the kinetic shroud offers all users upon deep strike, neither of these to latter cases offer any synergy between "run" and "flat out" - you could infer it but you'd only "inferring"

Lord Perversor wrote:


the following turns if you either use the Wasp jump pack at movement or charging you get the 4++ rerollable, since this is when you *START* using the Wasp jump pack for first time to get the 4++ and rerollable saves.

we agree on this, but I am talking about what happens if it's a charge you fail

Lord Perversor wrote:


Reckless abandon it's an additionla move, but it's not considered a run or flat out move so you can use it to get extra bonuses from the kinetic shroud.

yup I agree, I just say it's useful to ensure a 11.5 inch charge

OK, I think I see what you are doing.

Turn X - Deep Strike and gain a 4++ Re-rollable (as per the Kinetic Shroud).
Turn X+N - Move 6" normally (to be within 12" of enemy unit), shoot (normally), use Reckless Abandon to move away to be exactly 12" away. Use the Wasp Jump Pack to charge 3d6 (dropping the lowest), most likely fail (as you need 2+ 6's) and gain a re-rollable 4++ again.

Edit: Of course for this to work, you would need to be playing Unbound, or take a detachment of Corsairs.

 Happyjew wrote:
OK, I think I see what you are doing.

Turn X - Deep Strike and gain a 4++ Re-rollable (as per the Kinetic Shroud).
Turn X+N - Move 6" normally (to be within 12" of enemy unit), shoot (normally), use Reckless Abandon to move away to be exactly 12" away. Use the Wasp Jump Pack to charge 3d6 (dropping the lowest), most likely fail (as you need 2+ 6's) and gain a re-rollable 4++ again.

Edit: Of course for this to work, you would need to be playing Unbound, or take a detachment of Corsairs.

Using Reckless Abandon seems unnecessary. Use your regular move to be at 12", shoot, then do the charge trick in your example. Reckless Abandon even hurts this, as you have to move the full 6".

I like the trick, one of the more annoying things for Corsairs is getting wasps to work efficiently, this will be another way to keep them alive while still dishing out the hurt.

EldarArmy wrote:

Lord Perversor wrote:

The turn you arrive by deeps trike you get the 4++ and count's as moving *flat out* or run (the rule states run trigger the effect too)

I think this is misleading, run causes the 4++ (non rerollable) save, as does flat out but this is the only synergy and it's not the 4++ we're debating it's the 4++ rerollable *special ability* of wasp assault walkers AND the 4++ rerollable save the kinetic shroud offers all users upon deep strike, neither of these to latter cases offer any synergy between "run" and "flat out" - you could infer it but you'd only "inferring"

Yay i derped and somehow erased that last paragraph about kinetic shroud when entering via deep strike.

From a full RAW point since walkers can't flat out and run they will not be granted the 4++ rerollable in the turn they arrive, (imho anyone enforcing this can be labelled as TFG ) all posterior turns everything will work fine as long you are lucky enough to not roll 2x 6 on charge distance.

P.S: it's well know the Mymeara book seems to have been rushed and lacked a bit of quality control with some rules and pages (Eldar vs corsair weapons and vehicles discrepancies like the Lynx and Warp hunter weapon rules) but imho i think the intent was quite clear.