Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I'll be participating in a Plane Strike campaign in one month. The armies so far will be comprised of 3 SM chapters, one Tau force and a single Hive Fleet. I'm not worried about the Xenos, nor about one of the SM players (who will be playing fanmade BR), but the other SM player terrifies me. He'll be running an IH force, based on the Clan Raukaan supllement. More specifically he'll be fielding a Librarian in a bike HQ with apothecary, grav guns and power axes. They'll be T5 3+ monsters with FNP 4+.

How can I top that? I haven't played SM since 6th edition and I'm completely clueless. I've saw what that unit can do to almost anything, and I have no idea how to counter them?

I will be probably running Imperial Fists myself, with Lysander as my warlord.

It's a deathstar, you ignore it.

If it does get into combat with something, try to get Lysander in with them. He's durable enough to take it out for a few turns or so (and the S10 ignores the FnP).

This is a tough unit to crack so here are some ideas about how to deal with it. It really depends about what powers he gets with his libis as they are randomly generated. If he gets invisibility or any kind of reroll saves spell the squad is best to ignore or try to tie up. If he gets bad spells you can actually kill the thing.

-Alpha strike it with multiple drop pods (lots of plasma/ grav)
-Bring some land speeder storms and try to blind them with a Cerberus launcher.
-First turn direct hit orbital bombardment can destroy half the unit if you get lucky (no spells up and str 10 ap1 barrage so he cant tank with his chapter master)
-vindicator/conversion beamer blast from multiple directions.
-Ignore cover grav cannons
-Imperial knight in CC.
-Rhino harassment (block him with tin cans - force him to waste fire/time to deal with 35 point trash units)

Cool ideas and I thank you for them. I'll be running a vehicle heavy list with Lysander and some Storm Termies. We're not playing with LoW, so a Knight is not an option. I was thinking about the trio of Vindicators with their nasty apoc blast or maybe some Devs with Lascannon spam. I also reckon that Lysander would eventually defeat them, or at least tie them until the end of the game.

 Xathrodox86 wrote:
Cool ideas and I thank you for them. I'll be running a vehicle heavy list with Lysander and some Storm Termies. We're not playing with LoW, so a Knight is not an option. I was thinking about the trio of Vindicators with their nasty apoc blast or maybe some Devs with Lascannon spam. I also reckon that Lysander would eventually defeat them, or at least tie them until the end of the game.

The vindicators are good, but also fragile. Bear in mind also that if you lose one, then there's no more apoc blast shenanigans so play very carefully protecting their flanks with rhinos, scenery or other. I wouldn't bother with las devs. S9 isn't ID on T5 and the AP2 has no benefit over the AP3 of a krak missile (nor does the +1S). Lysander and terminators might be able to tie them up fairly well, but if he's smart he'll just avoid them. Taking Darnath, a unit of termis and a LR (to ensure you can get to his bikerstar and not be avoided) is a rather large points tax. I imagine there are better ways of dealing with it. Personally I'd just try an dispel as many of the star's crucial powers as possible, and/or probably just avoid it.

On a slightly different note, (iirc) there was a GT list that made top 8 (I forget whether it was adepticon or LVO) that ran Lysander, 30 or so scouts, a unit of grav centurions, some lascannon devs and some blood angels allies with librarians (one was Mephiston I think). Just some inspiration if you wanted to run Lysander in a slightly different way.

Taking some Psykers would definitely be a good a idea in order to dispel some of his powers. I also think scouts and now better than PA marines (not taking into account formation rules): same stat line with the exception of armour. This is mitigated by their easy access to 3+ cover, and has the added bonus of making grav less effective against them.

Edit: here's a link to the list I mentioned. Came second at the 2015 LVO
http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/Nick-Rose-2nd-Overall-Las-Vegas-Open-2015.pdf

That list is pretty brutal and I like it! However I don't see how am I suppose to run it. I normally play IG so my Marines skills are pretty rusty...

Thanks for the tips, but wouldn't putting Lysander in a ranged Cent squad be counter productive? After all, he's supposed to wreck face with his hammer, right?

 Xathrodox86 wrote:
Thanks for the tips, but wouldn't putting Lysander in a ranged Cent squad be counter productive? After all, he's supposed to wreck face with his hammer, right?

Your Grav-Centurion will wreck most MEQ / TEQ, Carnifexes, Ripetides, Wraith Knights within 24 inches unless they get stealth / shrouded plus behind decent covers or being invisibility / flicker jump out of LoS, but the things like Centurions will afraid being charged by TWCs, Fleshhounds, Maulerfiends, Wraith Knights, Wraiths, Scarabs (which will tied them up for the rest of whole game), Praertorians with Rods. So Lysander with his 3++, Eternal Warrior, FnP, and S10 AP1 (Instant Death T5 (read Fleshhounds, Wraiths, Scarabs, and TWCs) or below, wound MCs from WKs to below on 2s, pen Maulerfiends on 3s and explode them on 5s) Concussive weapon swinging at WS6 is a very good babysitter which could neutralize this kind of threat. Meanwhile, attach to Grav Centurion made your majority Toughness 5, that made the things like Scatter Lasers, Burst Cannon / SMS or Genstealer Rending Claws harder to harm him.

Lol he isn't even playing the hardest and evil one to kill. A Chapter Master in Arti armor, on a bike with a gorgan chain. He is a 2+/3++/possibly up to 3+ FNP monster with IWND and 4 wounds. Your best bet against this monster death star units is loads of shots. He will make some ones and enough shots will get enough ones.

Drakka77 wrote:
Lol he isn't even playing the hardest and evil one to kill. A Chapter Master in Arti armor, on a bike with a gorgan chain. He is a 2+/3++/possibly up to 3+ FNP monster with IWND and 4 wounds. Your best bet against this monster death star units is loads of shots. He will make some ones and enough shots will get enough ones.

If he's lucky it's 2+/3++/2+++
Space marine trait (FNP5+) +1 iron hands (4+) +1 medusa strike force (3+) +1 gorgons (2+) he can roll around on his own being effectively unkillable.

 Xathrodox86 wrote:
I'll be participating in a Plane Strike campaign in one month. The armies so far will be comprised of 3 SM chapters, one Tau force and a single Hive Fleet. I'm not worried about the Xenos, nor about one of the SM players (who will be playing fanmade BR), but the other SM player terrifies me. He'll be running an IH force, based on the Clan Raukaan supllement. More specifically he'll be fielding a Librarian in a bike HQ with apothecary, grav guns and power axes. They'll be T5 3+ monsters with FNP 4+.

How can I top that? I haven't played SM since 6th edition and I'm completely clueless. I've saw what that unit can do to almost anything, and I have no idea how to counter them?

I will be probably running Imperial Fists myself, with Lysander as my warlord.

Wait, only 1 librarian, no chapter master, no stormshields? 1 unit of drop-pod grav centurions with a librarian with perfect timing will kill that pathetic excuse of an IH deathstar in one round of shooting. Drop as close to the apoc as possible and let loose, try to get in double tap range with the hurricane bolters, you kill up to the apoc and the whole squad melts. Hell 2 units of sternguard will wipe it in a turn. What point level is it? 500? Even at that point level this is a woefully inefficient version of that star.

harkequin wrote:

Drakka77 wrote:
Lol he isn't even playing the hardest and evil one to kill. A Chapter Master in Arti armor, on a bike with a gorgan chain. He is a 2+/3++/possibly up to 3+ FNP monster with IWND and 4 wounds. Your best bet against this monster death star units is loads of shots. He will make some ones and enough shots will get enough ones.

If he's lucky it's 2+/3++/2+++
Space marine trait (FNP5+) +1 iron hands (4+) +1 medusa strike force (3+) +1 gorgons (2+) he can roll around on his own being effectively unkillable.

What Space Marine trait? I wasnt tracking that FNP source.

Drakka77 wrote:Lol he isn't even playing the hardest and evil one to kill. A Chapter Master in Arti armor, on a bike with a gorgan chain. He is a 2+/3++/possibly up to 3+ FNP monster with IWND and 4 wounds. Your best bet against this monster death star units is loads of shots. He will make some ones and enough shots will get enough ones.

We've decided to ban the Smashy-smashy CM.

ERJAK wrote:

 Xathrodox86 wrote:
I'll be participating in a Plane Strike campaign in one month. The armies so far will be comprised of 3 SM chapters, one Tau force and a single Hive Fleet. I'm not worried about the Xenos, nor about one of the SM players (who will be playing fanmade BR), but the other SM player terrifies me. He'll be running an IH force, based on the Clan Raukaan supllement. More specifically he'll be fielding a Librarian in a bike HQ with apothecary, grav guns and power axes. They'll be T5 3+ monsters with FNP 4+.

How can I top that? I haven't played SM since 6th edition and I'm completely clueless. I've saw what that unit can do to almost anything, and I have no idea how to counter them?

I will be probably running Imperial Fists myself, with Lysander as my warlord.

Wait, only 1 librarian, no chapter master, no stormshields? 1 unit of drop-pod grav centurions with a librarian with perfect timing will kill that pathetic excuse of an IH deathstar in one round of shooting. Drop as close to the apoc as possible and let loose, try to get in double tap range with the hurricane bolters, you kill up to the apoc and the whole squad melts. Hell 2 units of sternguard will wipe it in a turn. What point level is it? 500? Even at that point level this is a woefully inefficient version of that star.

I think there may be SS involved and perhaps something extra. Your plan sounds very well and I was thinking about using the Librarius Conclave myself, since it might come in handy.

I run either a conclave or Tigurius (or Tiggy in a conclave) in nearly all my lists now. They're excellent for buffing your own army, dispelling the opponents spells, and/or providing some extra firepower

 Brother Payne wrote:
I run either a conclave or Tigurius (or Tiggy in a conclave) in nearly all my lists now. They're excellent for buffing your own army, dispelling the opponents spells, and/or providing some extra firepower

They don't have to run together, right? How best to utilise them? Put them in a Landraider? Drop pod them with a bunch of Sternguards? Put them on bikes?

 Xathrodox86 wrote:

 Brother Payne wrote:
I run either a conclave or Tigurius (or Tiggy in a conclave) in nearly all my lists now. They're excellent for buffing your own army, dispelling the opponents spells, and/or providing some extra firepower

They don't have to run together, right? How best to utilise them? Put them in a Landraider? Drop pod them with a bunch of Sternguards? Put them on bikes?

Correct: they don't have to run them together. I usually run them on bikes, or Tiggy with grav centurions in a pod. That being said they'll be useful p much which ever way you run them

 Brother Payne wrote:

 Xathrodox86 wrote:

 Brother Payne wrote:
I run either a conclave or Tigurius (or Tiggy in a conclave) in nearly all my lists now. They're excellent for buffing your own army, dispelling the opponents spells, and/or providing some extra firepower

They don't have to run together, right? How best to utilise them? Put them in a Landraider? Drop pod them with a bunch of Sternguards? Put them on bikes?

Correct: they don't have to run them together. I usually run them on bikes, or Tiggy with grav centurions in a pod. That being said they'll be useful p much which ever way you run them

So what'd be the best disciplines to run them with, assuming that I'd put them in a bike squad? Biomancy or Telepathy?

 Xathrodox86 wrote:

 Brother Payne wrote:

 Xathrodox86 wrote:

 Brother Payne wrote:
I run either a conclave or Tigurius (or Tiggy in a conclave) in nearly all my lists now. They're excellent for buffing your own army, dispelling the opponents spells, and/or providing some extra firepower

They don't have to run together, right? How best to utilise them? Put them in a Landraider? Drop pod them with a bunch of Sternguards? Put them on bikes?

Correct: they don't have to run them together. I usually run them on bikes, or Tiggy with grav centurions in a pod. That being said they'll be useful p much which ever way you run them

So what'd be the best disciplines to run them with, assuming that I'd put them in a bike squad? Biomancy or Telepathy?

Telepathy is better if you're running the librarians in separate units so that you can make the best use of shriek, but biomancy is good, especially in a biker star. Also consider fulmination and geomancy from the AoD supplement - there are some incredibly good powers there.

Edit: typo

 Brother Payne wrote:

 Xathrodox86 wrote:

 Brother Payne wrote:

 Xathrodox86 wrote:

 Brother Payne wrote:
I run either a conclave or Tigurius (or Tiggy in a conclave) in nearly all my lists now. They're excellent for buffing your own army, dispelling the opponents spells, and/or providing some extra firepower

They don't have to run together, right? How best to utilise them? Put them in a Landraider? Drop pod them with a bunch of Sternguards? Put them on bikes?

Correct: they don't have to run them together. I usually run them on bikes, or Tiggy with grav centurions in a pod. That being said they'll be useful p much which ever way you run them

So what'd be the best disciplines to run them with, assuming that I'd put them in a bike squad? Biomancy or Telepathy?

Telepathy is better if you're running the librarians in separate units so that you can make the best use of shriek, but biomancy is good, especially in a biker star. Also consider fulmination and geomancy from the AoD supplement - there are some incredibly good powers there.

Edit: typo

Never tried the new powers, didn't even saw them in combat. I assume that I should try and get the strength boosting power from biomancy? An S10 Libby with a Force Axe sounds nasty!

You're actually better off going with a force staff on the bio libby as if he rolls iron arm you've then got a S9 AP2 weapon that strikes at initiative! If you roll warp speed as well then he gets +3 to his initiative and attacks too making him an absolute monster against MEQ or even TEQ. Although not so useful in single wound units like bike squads, endurance can also be a good spell to get: 4+ FNP is nice (although you might already have this if you're running an IH command squad on bikes) and eternal warrior is always nice for all those characters that will undoubtedly be joining the unit. Relentless is rather useless on a bike unit but oh well.

Another option (although risky due to perils on any double) is taking sanctic daemonology on one of your librarians and hoping for either Hammerhand (+2S to whole unit) or if you've got storm shields, then sanctuary (+1 to unit's invul). So depending on the powers you roll you could end up with a 3+/2++/4+++ unit with +2 strength and one absolute beatstick librarian to boot

Iron Hands stars that run 2+3++ 2+ or 3+ fnp are tough to deal with. There are only a few options.

1. Stomp them out. Fairly unreliable as most as mean in combat.
2. D them out, at toughness 5 they won't get fnp rolls against d strength attacks.
3. strng 10 attacks can hurt. Especially if you tag their gorgon chain guy without eternal warrior.
4.Ignore them. Can be tough to do.

X

Alternatively take DA with AM allies and tie them up with a 50 guard blob mob led by Azrael The mother of all tarpits.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On another note: the new SM FAQ just gave mixed chapter biker stars a MASSIVE nerf. In fact any mixed chapter unit has now been nerfed to the ground. The ruling is unfluffy as hell too and only C:SM models suffer, but I guess at least you don't have to worry about super friends stars anymore

 Brother Payne wrote:
Alternatively take DA with AM allies and tie them up with a 50 guard blob mob led by Azrael The mother of all tarpits.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On another note: the new SM FAQ just gave mixed chapter biker stars a MASSIVE nerf. In fact any mixed chapter unit has now been nerfed to the ground. The ruling is unfluffy as hell too and only C:SM models suffer, but I guess at least you don't have to worry about super friends stars anymore

How so? Most already play it as a unit with mix chapter models negates all chapter tactics....The Super friends list I've seen don't combine 2 chapters from the SM codex anyways, usually just SM/SW or SM/SW/DA.

 SonsofVulkan wrote:

 Brother Payne wrote:
On another note: the new SM FAQ just gave mixed chapter biker stars a MASSIVE nerf. In fact any mixed chapter unit has now been nerfed to the ground. The ruling is unfluffy as hell too and only C:SM models suffer, but I guess at least you don't have to worry about super friends stars anymore

How so? Most already play it as a unit with mix chapter models negates all chapter tactics....The Super friends list I've seen don't combine 2 chapters from the SM codex anyways, usually just SM/SW or SM/SW/DA.

Exactly. The faq states that if an IC from BA, DA, SW, etc. joins a unit with chapter tactics, they no longer benefit, just as if an IC with different chapter tactics had joined the unit. Thus no more DA, SW, IH/WS deathstars.

Edit: removed irrelevant piece of quote

OH NOES. Imma gonna lose my furious charge!

Martel732 wrote:
OH NOES. Imma gonna lose my furious charge!

Only applies to the C:SM models. Eg. A DA Libby joins an iron hands command squad; the iron hands lose their FNP bonus (apparently the DA's presence makes their bionics stop working idk), but the Libby maintains his ability to overwatch at BS2

 Aijec wrote:
Iron Hands stars that run 2+3++ 2+ or 3+ fnp are tough to deal with. There are only a few options.

1. Stomp them out. Fairly unreliable as most as mean in combat.
2. D them out, at toughness 5 they won't get fnp rolls against d strength attacks.
3. strng 10 attacks can hurt. Especially if you tag their gorgon chain guy without eternal warrior.
4.Ignore them. Can be tough to do.

I won't be able to outstomp them, that's for sure. No D weapons as well. St 10 is a viable thingie, and I hope that Lysander will help me with that. I don't think you can ignore a unit like that, with bikes and all.

Lysander won't be enough S10. Take vindicators. Like 3 of them. And find a way to keep the damn things alive

 Brother Payne wrote:
Lysander won't be enough S10. Take vindicators. Like 3 of them. And find a way to keep the damn things alive

You're talking about thay formation with a D-blast from 3 Vindies? I just might do that. It'll fit nicely with the theme of my chapter too, so that's a bonus.