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Does it look like a vanilla space marines demi-company?

A demi-company has 3 tactical squads, a devastator squad and an assault marine squad, as well as either a captain or a chaplain.

What about a thousand sons warband (in particular, under ahriman)?

Are rubric marines supplemented by havocs and raptors?

Magnusite Thousand Sons:
Color: Red
Composition: Lots of infantry + Terminators, few vehicles and jump packs. Maybe some spire guard, though IIRC forgeworld killed them all off at prospero + most all of them died at the battle of the fang in old fluff.

Ahriminian Exile Thousand Sons:
Color: Blue
Composition: Lots of Infantry + Terminators, most vehicles in their possession is either newly 'aquired' or gifts/payments from other warbands.

 Brennonjw wrote:
Magnusite Thousand Sons:
Color: Red
Composition: Lots of infantry + Terminators, few vehicles and jump packs. Maybe some spire guard, though IIRC forgeworld killed them all off at prospero + most all of them died at the battle of the fang in old fluff.

Ahriminian Exile Thousand Sons:
Color: Blue
Composition: Lots of Infantry + Terminators, most vehicles in their possession is either newly 'acquired' or gifts/payments from other warbands.

I'm more interested in the Ahriminian exiles. What is the composition of that infantry? 3 CSM units to 1 havoc unit to 1 raptor unit? Where do the rubric marines fit in?

 Traditio wrote:

 Brennonjw wrote:
Magnusite Thousand Sons:
Color: Red
Composition: Lots of infantry + Terminators, few vehicles and jump packs. Maybe some spire guard, though IIRC forgeworld killed them all off at prospero + most all of them died at the battle of the fang in old fluff.

Ahriminian Exile Thousand Sons:
Color: Blue
Composition: Lots of Infantry + Terminators, most vehicles in their possession is either newly 'acquired' or gifts/payments from other warbands.

I'm more interested in the Ahriminian exiles. What is the composition of that infantry? 3 CSM units to 1 havoc unit to 1 raptor unit? Where do the rubric marines fit in?

The Thousand Sons ARE the Rubric Marines. The spell Ahriman cast transformed the bulk of them into the automatons that we know and love, and only the ones with sorcerous talent were spared that. So essentially, Raptors are probably a no-go unless they are CSM from another warband who joined the TS warband

Would inductees from other warbands wear their own colors of power armor, or would they wear the colors of thousand sons?

 Traditio wrote:
Would inductees from other warbands wear their own colors of power armor, or would they wear the colors of thousand sons?

Now that I can't answer. I'm fuzzy on TS lore, so I'll let someone else field that question. It would probably depend on if the Sorcerer in charge of the warband even allowed anyone else to join.

there aren't really new marines being brought in. TS tend to be the least chaotic as a whole (Both Ahriman and Magnus HATE tzeentch), and at least ahriman and a good portion of his exiles, are spending much more time trying to fix the mess he made as opposed to plotting the down fall of all things 'not chaos'. As such, they tend to not get new inductees. pair that with a crippling lack of geneseed, and you find out why there are such low numbers of "living" TS in a 'warband'.

From my limited knowledge of Chaos Warbands, there is little set order.

Warbands are not comprised how the loyal Space Marines are, with a higher command and set doctrine.
Warbands are pretty much whatever forces the Warband leader wants to bring, either only what they have at their disposal (such as small scale leaders) or a designated portion of their forces (a noted commander - such as Ahriman).

As for set doctrine - I'd suggest a combination of Terminator Squads, Rubric Squads, Cultists or Renegade Guardsmen, or Tzeentch Daemons. Hell, Dreadnoughts would also be fielded.

There is no demi-company, so to speak, and I doubt that Thousand Sons have any Havoc or Raptor Squads at their disposal. Their non-psychic infantry units were ALL turned to dust, so it would be hard to represent TS units. And due to their secretive nature, there will not be many new recruits, and any that are will not technically be Thousand Sons. They will have heraldry of a Thousand Son, but only in name. They will just be a Tzeentch follower following Ahriman.

Warp Talons could work, with their native invuln, and Terminators. Cultists represent the mortal Tzeentch worshippers, or the force that called upon the actual Space Marines. Daemons are the allies the sorcerers have summoned. The Dreadnought is a Dreadnought like any other - aminated by eldritch energies. Hell, you could even convert it to look like a reanimated Egyptian statue.

TL;DR - There is no set doctrine, but you should avoid "flesh and blood" troops - Raptors, Havocs, Bikers, etc.

Sgt. Smudge:

Interesting. I have a question about the Tzeentch daemons, though.

I was under the impression that Ahriman hates Tzeentch? Why would he have daemons running around in his army?

 Traditio wrote:
Sgt. Smudge:

Interesting. I have a question about the Tzeentch daemons, though.

I was under the impression that Ahriman hates Tzeentch? Why would he have daemons running around in his army?

As I said, my 1kSons lore is lacking, so I'm working off of what I know.

He might hate Tzeentch, but still uses the power given to him to work against him. That's in and of itself a very a Tzeentchian trait, and it makes sense from the character to use all resources to oppose him. Much like how some Inquisitors use xenotech or daemonhosts.

Also, I didn't actually know this was a Warband led by Ahriman himself - just a splinter led by a smaller commander. If that's the case, feel free to avoid daemons, but they can work.

 Traditio wrote:
Sgt. Smudge:

Interesting. I have a question about the Tzeentch daemons, though.

I was under the impression that Ahriman hates Tzeentch? Why would he have daemons running around in his army?

Lots of Spoilers.

As seen in my profile picture Ahriman has met with many daemons of the warp, even greater ones such as this lord of change. Sometimes he makes deals with these denizens of the warp. These deals can be mutually beneficial, but are more often attempts to out-wit the other "partner".
In Ahriman: Exile and the books that follow, Ahriman fights along side a space marine possessed by a daemon. He does not hate daemons, but recognizes them as sinister and dangerous. I could absolutely see Ahriman doing battle alongside a host of daemons led by a herald or changer of ways that had some sort of short-term agreement with Ahriman. There was also the time he nearly burglarized the black library, owing his near-success in part to a powerful disc of tzeentch he summoned to fight for him, a leviathan.

The Prodigal Sons is the smoldering remains of the Brotherhood of Dust, a warband Ahriman hijacked from Amon, the mentor of Magnus and ex-captain of the Hidden Ones, or Scouts (9th company). As said above, NO chaos warbands follow a combat doctrine that is similar to the loyalists. You can't think in this way with them. What does a prodigal sons force look like?

1) Thousand Sons. You have your sorcerers such as Obysis, lots of rubric marines, MAYBE ONE ferrus infernum dreadnaught such as Khadeth, and more likely but still maybe not, some Scarab Occult, the elite 1st company terminators from back in the day. No spireguard, they're all dead. No scouts, they weren't even really scouts but more spies.

2) Chaos space marines. Here is where you have the most leeway. Maybe one of the voidships in the warband belongs to some CSM sympathetic to the cause for whatever reason, and they have 3 predators, or vindicators. Maybe theres a dark mechanicum ship or some CSM that did business with the dark mechanicum, and they have some maulerfiends or a defiler. Maybe Ahriman did some trickery and stole a thunderhawk gunship. Who knows? Chaos is fickle and Ahriman is smart and powerful.

3) Daemons. Keep it small. Think a herald and some pink horrors whom Ahriman has promised an artifact to if they help him scorch some guardsmen. Maybe a lord of change trying to lure Ahriman into a trap, "helping" him kill some Eldar by divining for his rubrics.

Sorry for the text wall. Thousand Sons get me going. Hope this helped.

Only sorcerers and rubricae.
Perhaps some allied csm.
Perhaps one or two daemons.
Perhaps some allied sorcerers not from TS.
Perhsps a whole ship with thousands of humans, containinc crew and army, even lots of gangs and spawn living deep in the ship.

He will deal with other warbands and allies temporarily as they are drawn to his legendary status and power.

changerofways wrote:2) Chaos space marines. Here is where you have the most leeway. Maybe one of the voidships in the warband belongs to some CSM sympathetic to the cause for whatever reason, and they have 3 predators, or vindicators. Maybe theres a dark mechanicum ship or some CSM that did business with the dark mechanicum, and they have some maulerfiends or a defiler. Maybe Ahriman did some trickery and stole a thunderhawk gunship. Who knows? Chaos is fickle and Ahriman is smart and powerful.

What color power armor would the allied CSM wear? Thousand Sons colors? A different color?

 Traditio wrote:
What color power armor would the allied CSM wear? Thousand Sons colors? A different color?

Some of the thousand sons actually aren't blue and gold. There are a select few, one is orange I think...and then there are the ones back from the planet of sorcerers which are still red of course b/c they weren't there when Ahriman did his XTREME MAKEOVER in Exile.
Allied CSM could be wearing armor of any color. Some might paint themselves in rubric colors to try to win Ahriman's favor. Its very much up to you.

 changerofways wrote:

 Traditio wrote:
What color power armor would the allied CSM wear? Thousand Sons colors? A different color?

Some of the thousand sons actually aren't blue and gold. There are a select few, one is orange I think...and then there are the ones back from the planet of sorcerers which are still red of course b/c they weren't there when Ahriman did his XTREME MAKEOVER in Exile.
Allied CSM could be wearing armor of any color. Some might paint themselves in rubric colors to try to win Ahriman's favor. Its very much up to you.

Interesting. So, just bouncing a thought off of you. In principle, I could get some of the BAC tac marines, paint them red, and use them as thousand sons non-rubric marines?

Not saying I will. But that's a thing that could be done?

BaC? What is that?

And no, all non-magical thousand sons are rubrics. So you couldn't have non-magical non-rubric thousand sons

Well, except for one. But a lot of spoilers there.

BaC = Betrayal at Calth.

 changerofways wrote:
BaC? What is that?

And no, all non-magical thousand sons are rubrics. So you couldn't have non-magical non-rubric thousand sons

Well, except for one. But a lot of spoilers there.

1/2 true, unless things have been retconned. Most all of the 'flesh' TS are sorcerors, but there was a small number that stayed 'human' post rubric. Though, like the spire guard (who are getting ret-conned out by FW BTW. They all died at prospero, none of them made it to the planet of sorcerers because reasons), they've all died out by now.

Going from the 3rd Ed codex where TS had their own rules, chosen, possessed, havocs and Bikers would also be part of a TS army. Back then Raptors were their own cult and therefor not aligned to any god, but I don't see why they wouldn't be today. Stick a lord with jump pack with them. The TS aren't specialized in close combat at all though, so maybe only take a few.
However you take it, there should be sorcerers in everything. For example, the cyclobia cabal or Abaddons Chosen formation could be a nice start, since they give you lots of sorcerers.
And above everything: Remember Tzeentchs number is 9, so every group should consist of not more than 9 marines(well, 18 is okay as well), as you really don't want to mess with the changer of ways.

There was TS chapter rules in a 2002 WD it had rubrics and terminator rubrics possessed (think SM that were only wounded that the TS used) you got free upgrades for units that were 9 in number (3 for units that used a max 5) and had a all caster unit but powers back then were like war gear one was a move and shoot lasscannon also think it had warp talons (they look tzeentch like) also in the fluff Ahriman invented the defiler ( in 30k they use warp spirits aka daemons)

As for color there was one story of the casting of the rubric with gold and blue bolts striking the TS and that was one story on the color change

It looks like sorcerers leading power armor shells filled with dust, with whatever else support they can gather for the particular mission. It's not all that complex honestly.

Didn't Tsons used to have Thrall Sorcerers, basically human sorcerers who served as meat shields for the proper Tsons sorcerers, back in third or fourth ed? I could have sworn you could take squads of them with a Chaos Sorcerer.

I always imagined Thousand Sons as having every character and squad leader be a sorcerer. Then they've got their Rubric Marines forming the core of their army, and to supplement them they have lots mortal psykers and spawn taken from the Planet of the Sorcerers. There's no real rules for Thrall Sorcerers, unless you use the Rogue Psyker rules from Forgeworld, although Psyker Battle Squads from the AM codex might fit the bill better.

That's Magnus's group though. Ahriman's is probably more of an elite club of Ahriman's buddies (all powerful sorcerers, of course) with Rubric bodyguards supplemented by anything they can trick/press into service.

So you can justify a lot of different units in a fluffy Tsons army, just as long as Rubric Marines and Sorcerers/Sorcerer Lords make up the core. If only Rubric Marines didn't suck so badly...

 fallinq wrote:
Didn't Tsons used to have Thrall Sorcerers, basically human sorcerers who served as meat shields for the proper Tsons sorcerers, back in third or fourth ed?.

IDK about what models have been around, but planet of sorcerer Thousand Sons do have a multi-class society made up of beast men and humans, many are magically talented. They absolutely would use these units in battle.
Tzaangor are Tzeentch-aligned beastmen who act as guards of important buildings on the planet of sorcerers, for instance.

I imagine a typical TS warband (for Ahriman's boys in blue) to be a Sorceror, maybe his scheming underling, and a handful of Rubrics. This warband would then attach itself to larger warband from other factions and manipulate the larger faction into unwittingly doing the sorcerer's bidding.

Oldmike wrote:
There was TS chapter rules in a 2002 WD it had rubrics and terminator rubrics possessed (think SM that were only wounded that the TS used) you got free upgrades for units that were 9 in number (3 for units that used a max 5) and had a all caster unit but powers back then were like war gear one was a move and shoot lasscannon also think it had warp talons (they look tzeentch like) also in the fluff Ahriman invented the defiler ( in 30k they use warp spirits aka daemons)

As for color there was one story of the casting of the rubric with gold and blue bolts striking the TS and that was one story on the color change

Warp Talons are usually depicted in Night Lords Colors (as that's the Legion about Raptors and fast stuff) and if I'm not mistaken they've been introduced with 6th ed.

Concerning vehicles a fluffy TS army should probably give everything warpflame gargoyles , even though the rule is totally rubbish. But if you pay for overpriced Rubrics you might as well spread those 5pts on everything...

The best way to sum this up - look at the Ahriman: Unchanged book.

Ahriman's trilogy is awesome. However, he doesn't really have his army in tow until the third book.


The Brotherhood of Dust consists of Ahriman & his inner circle - some of whom are thousand sons (and wear the blue version of their legion heraldry), some of whom are sorcerors who aren't thousand sons, and some of whom are rengades who are essentially mercenary hangars-on.

The core of his army is rubricae led by thousand sons sorcerors, but then 'bolted on' are small warbands of renegades - each of which might be a few squads of whatever type, in their own colours, plus a champion. One are an outcast but loyalist marine chapter, another is a legion master of ordnance with a battle automata in tow, etc etc.


In game terms, I'd make ~ half your squads rubricae, and then the rest grouped into two or three 'bands' of similar colours. The 'normal' marines won't be thousand sons, so they'll have their own individual colours; Scourge, Crimson Blades, Burning Eye, whatever.

The Thousand Sons were never numerous even at the Legion's pinnacle. The Heresy and the Rubric took their toll on their numbers to the extent that as far as we know, there aren't many left. So what would a TS force look like when fluffy?

Rubric Marines for the footsloggers. Madox showed the souls of dead Thousand Sons could be encased into new suits of armour through sorcery to fight again and again, so such marines are ultimately the only renewable war resource the Thousand Sons can draw upon. Such marines are automatons, and would never be members of Raptor Cults, but could potentially be Havocs at a pinch (we can assume that if you can functionally aim a bolter and move around with it, you can aim a Missile Launcher and move around with it).

Veteran Sorcerors would make up the rest of the foot contingent. It is possible that some new geneseed has been implanted into new TS recruits, but any such reinforcements would be an absolute trickle, and highly susceptible to mutation to begin with.

TS are unlikely to retain much in the way of contemporary weaponry. No Maulerfiends, no stalk-tanks, no ranks of dreadnoughts or tanks. They'll still be utilising mainly Heresy era technology, and not much of it. Magnus after all, spends his time trying to piss off the Gods (for which he doesn't need tanks), and Ahriman isn't interested in open warfare as a rule of thumb. Therefore they don't have the production facilities the other legions do, and are unlikely to do much to replenish losses.

Cultists are a likelihood if Ahriman is creating insurgencies to achieve other objectives, along with whatever associated weaponry they might possess (probably PDF level gear). Daemons are also a possibility, although it is extremely unlikely anything in the upper echelons of Daemon ranks would be utilised for fear of betrayal, or complication. The Thousand Sons know too much about daemons and Chaos to trust them with anything of importance, and the need would have to be great for them to risk summoning something they might not be able to control, or the appearance of which might complicate factors on the ground.

At the same time, daemons are a very efficient weapon. The Thousand Sons have moved on a lot since Prospero; they no longer trust daemons and have amongst their ranks the most gifted Daemonologists outside the Word Bearers.

They do use daemons, but will rarely ever use daemon allies. Bound daemons as expendable weapons is a different matter.