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I have, or rather had, three people that I regularly play. One moved to another state, one has started working opposite shifts to me, and one of them is taking a break from the game to get more painting done (bought a lot of new stuff). I'm trying to reach out to some of the other people that go to our store that I haven't played too much outside of a game or two, and I'm running into a new problem I haven't really encountered.

I can say with reasonable certainty that I know all the rules. There are things I have to occasionally look up if I don't see them often, but I can say I know about 98% of the stuff in the core rules, and about 2/3 of the various codex specific rules. The guys I play with also knew the game well, or would on rare occasion turn to my knowledge or check something in the book. These new guys I tried playing.... things are "different". This most recent game was frustrating.

I'm a very polite, friendly person. I try, when you make a rules mistake, to be nice about it. Sorry, you must be thinking of x, that unit can only do y. My guys have this, so they're allowed to do this thing. So on, so forth. If you still disagree, I quickly pop out the good ol' BRB and look it up. Takes maybe a minute to find and explain.

The guy I just played yesterday had no clue how the current set of rules work. I recognize some of it from previous editions, just found out another bit was from an old edition, and some of it just seemed to come from nowhere. What do you do when someone is so off when it comes to the rules? I started off correcting everything he was doing incorrectly, but by turn 2 I had opened the book nearly a dozen times. Scouting, infiltrate, vehicle movement, jink saves, morale checks, multiple barrage, LOS, psychic phase.... the list goes on. It's not that he didn't know the rule, it's that he thought they were very different to what they actually did. It eventually got to the point that he was mad at me and I was sick of opening the rules so I just gave in to whatever weird rulings he decided upon, ultimately losing me the game, literally. And no, not a new player, I see him playing his friends every 2 or 3 weeks, and he's been at the game a long time. It feels like he never even read the rulebook, just learned everything he knows from reading dakka forums.

Would you try to teach someone in this case, or is it a lost cause? I feel like even all the rules that I did show and explain were just "sure whatever" instead of "yes I understand". Sigh...................

Whatever game I play there is always a break even point for enjoyment. Either I am learning or my opponents are which is fine. Sometimes queries crop up during games, again its okay. I forget rafts of rules but am okay in taking my opponents advice. If someone wilfully abuses rules or refuses to acknowledge them then its time to move on.

In this instance, I would politely decline a game and find another opponent. You could watch him play his other games and see if his grasp of the rules improves.

Well, I can't speak for everyone but we settle our rules debates with a gladiatorial deathmatch with the winner being proclaimed as the one in the right...

However I know we are very much in the minority so far as I know most normal people will look up the rule in the book, if there are different interpretations of the reading then they'll have a 'dice off'.

It sounds like you have 2 options available, continue to do look up the rules and inform the the player of their mistakes with the hope that they'll improve and spread the knowledge (the amount of dodgy rules I used to play with when I was learning the game was unreal so I'm probably more sympathetic to the guy than I should....)

Or you could just give up on the guy and play anyone else in the club, perhaps warning any of his prospective opponents of what they are getting into.

 Torus wrote:
Well, I can't speak for everyone but we settle our rules debates with a gladiatorial deathmatch with the winner being proclaimed as the one in the right...

However I know we are very much in the minority so far as I know most normal people will look up the rule in the book, if there are different interpretations of the reading then they'll have a 'dice off'.

It sounds like you have 2 options available, continue to do look up the rules and inform the the player of their mistakes with the hope that they'll improve and spread the knowledge (the amount of dodgy rules I used to play with when I was learning the game was unreal so I'm probably more sympathetic to the guy than I should....)

Or you could just give up on the guy and play anyone else in the club, perhaps warning any of his prospective opponents of what they are getting into.

I'd rather not go around telling people "dont play this guy" based on a single match. Imagine someone did that to you when you were learning the game.

Either just don't play with him or make sure you know your rules(which it seems you already do which is great!), keep pointing out his mistakes. Either he won't play you again anyway or he'll learn to play properly.

Stick to my guns and correct the mistakes. If they start getting agitated/angry, refuse future games. .

It's one thing to correct mistakes, it's another to teach the game to someone who should already know the rules and it's a further thing when their personality turns out to be...less than desired in an opponent.

Depends.

If there is no time and it really doesn't matter -> Give in, search the rules post game and post the player a kind message if you .play him regular.

If there is the time -> just continue playing and the other player looks up the RAW.

In the rare situation we can't agree on RAW -> Look it up on the internet. We can't be the first ones in this situation.

If we still can't agree of if he challenges me on the rules every few minutes. Give in and remember not to play again against this player if it became an unfriendly situation.

The one option that I don't like at all is asking the store manager.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
When the other player is a friendly person who clearly doesn't know the rules. Just correct him. Use the correct rules and let him and let the player who's turn it isn't look up the rule if he wants to. This isn't a rules discussion but just me learning the current rules to him.

nekooni wrote:

 Torus wrote:
Well, I can't speak for everyone but we settle our rules debates with a gladiatorial deathmatch with the winner being proclaimed as the one in the right...

However I know we are very much in the minority so far as I know most normal people will look up the rule in the book, if there are different interpretations of the reading then they'll have a 'dice off'.

It sounds like you have 2 options available, continue to do look up the rules and inform the the player of their mistakes with the hope that they'll improve and spread the knowledge (the amount of dodgy rules I used to play with when I was learning the game was unreal so I'm probably more sympathetic to the guy than I should....)

Or you could just give up on the guy and play anyone else in the club, perhaps warning any of his prospective opponents of what they are getting into.

I'd rather not go around telling people "dont play this guy" based on a single match. Imagine someone did that to you when you were learning the game.

Either just don't play with him or make sure you know your rules(which it seems you already do which is great!), keep pointing out his mistakes. Either he won't play you again anyway or he'll learn to play properly.

Not what I meant, by no means maliciously call him a cheater or TFG just a friendly tap on the shoulder saying that he's still learning the game and may get some of the rules wrong... if he's an ass then that's other people will already know

If a rule is just plain wrong according to RAW and I know it is, then the game will still be there after we look it up. Even if I am the one mistaken, I want to look it up so that I can see my mistake plainly and understand where I went wrong with my thinking so that I don't do it again.

If it's an interpretation mistake and it doesn't bug me much, like POTMS can still make a full BS attack after Crew Shaken, I don't care. Not enough to raise a fuss about and people can interpret how they like. I will mention that it's an 'odd interpretation' or inform the other player that ITC plays it different in the passive-aggressive way that means not everyone is going to be cool with it but I'm letting it slide because I'm not bothered enough not to.

If it IS big enough to raise a fuss about, I will raise a fuss about the blatant advantage that some rules allow, like POTMS giving a full BS shot against Flyers and Hard to Hit when the only thing in my fluffy army worth a damn are the flyers, then I will cite popular FAQs for the 'accepted answer'. If that's not enough, I'll make sure to tell them for any future games that I will be using the ITC FAQs, which is common in my area anyway, and will refuse the game if that's not okay.

ITC isn't perfect but it atleast addresses some common issues so that everyone can be reading from the same rules instead of being surprised by something out of left field.

I've had games like this, and you hit a point where you really want to fake a text message or phone call. 40k is a stress relief for me, and some of those games can get really stressful. Sometimes if you have to keep correcting them it just becomes a pain.
I've had a bundle of games where people fudge the move phase. They move, the tape measure moves, they get 2-4 extra inches, its a hassle to keep correcting them. Same with rules, especially when some people can let their tempers get the better of them, no matter how nice you can be.
So with what I started with, sometimes I really want to cut my losses. I think I have only done it once. Usually I play through, end up stressed out and wishing I had just stopped mid way through, even if time isn't an issue.

Worst was 2 hours into a 14K apoc game, my opponent tells me both our partners havent played since 5th edition. Game lasted 12 hours and we got to turn 3. Was terrible. Non stop, "no, it doesn't work like that anymore.".

If I had a heads up from someone that they hadn't played since X edition, that is a different story. I'm willing to help with learning, but I don't like when it catches me out of the blue.

We try to find the rules about what we're discussing. If they're unclear, we just roll the die and discuss it later.

We used to lose a lot of time with rules discussions, and playing is much more important than being right about this or that.

Depends on the impact of a rule.

It would depend - it isn't much fun to have to open the rulebook every 5 seconds, but if he's trying to do like the 4th ed rule of reconsolidating into group, or charging after infiltrating, you are in the right to correct him.

I guess my rule of thumb would be - if you can find a cut-and-dry rules correction in under a minute, do it. Every time. It's hard to argue against the rulebook.

If it's going to devolve into a 15 minute discussion on an ambiguous ruling, just dice off and have done.

But don't cheat yourself by letting him do stuff that you know is blatantly against the rules. If it's simple, easy corrections, keep doing it. If he gets mad because you're following the rules, well, he should have said he wanted to play a previous game edition before starting.

If he's getting himself into trouble by following outdated rules, definitely give him room to mulligan, but don't let him cheat.

In an actual game situation where it is ambiguous (as in we found the closest possible reference in the rules and still no luck) I always propose a dice off.

If the other guy disagrees then I usually back down and let them have their way.

 kingbobbito wrote:
I can say with reasonable certainty that I know all the rules.

Really? First off, I say you are FULL OF YOURSELF. Nobody and I MEAN NOBODY knows all the rules. You even said yourself you have "to look something up" and right there you don't know ALL THE RULES. Second off, why "is it a lost cause?" Sometimes I think people need to look in the mirror, so you are MR PERFECT, you one of the smartest people on the planet because you know 40K rules? Come on, this was a one time even no? You haven't said anyone else did this.

And WHO CARES, you lost a game. "waaaa I lost because he didn't know his rules." Like really? You needed to bring that up because you lost a game with plastic toy soldiers, it's irrelevant to what you are saying except your ego.

Now just in case you made a poor choice in words (Hell I do it all the time.) all you can do is keep doing what you do. I am coming back to 40K after 5th edition so I get the rules wrong a lot. So when I think someone made a mistake, I correct them, or they correct me. If you see someone who gets mad STOP right there, tell them "they win" and just pack up. Explain to them. "I see you are getting mad because I view the rules differently than you and so I don't upset you anymore, I will stop playing now. There is no reason to get mad and upset because someone has a differing opinion. Thank you for the game." If this person was actually a nice person, he would be asking why you think that. And then you can explain to him "in my opinion you have made a lot of mistakes and I corrected you with all of them, and I find you are not playing by the rules in the book. I like to play rules by the book, not how people think they should be." or something like that. Even what I said there can be offensive to a few people.

Let him be TFG, not yourself. Right now, not knowing you but going off what you said, you are a bit full of it. Are you sure you were not a bit condescending? Maybe he got "mad" because you gave a sort of arrogance about yourself? We are humans, we don't mind be corrected some of the time, but EVERY time, even if the person is wrong, doesn't mean you have to be right or correct.

Also don't forget you said, "he played for a long time" so it's natural for people to get editions wrong. Hell WE ALL DO IT. For me I can't understand how you can't comprehend this aspect. It actually boggles my mind lol. We are all human, we all make mistakes, and Yes that includes you as well.

If its something i didnt know i usually just give the guy the benefit of the doubt and move on. then look it up later so we dont waste time.
If its a guy just being an donkey cave then i pack up and leave
If its a tourny just call in the TO and whatever they say goes.

at some point you really need to ask your self if rules debating is even worth the time.

Personally I'll never memorize the BRB. Even the last few games I played (5th edition) my buddies and I still had to look stuff up. Mostly the new stuff. someone with more knowledge of the rules would be welcome at our games.
we would normally play in one of our basements. We were just a few bluecollar workers that enjoyed the game. Between work, kids/family and our other interests we just never memorized it.
yes our games lasted longer than I'm sure most everyone's do but we had fun.
As stated before. Someone that is more atune to the rules would have been welcome and taught us something to.

Fudging around with the rules isn't cool. The point of the game is to have fun. Not to be annoyed and just say Gakk It and give up.

My 2 cents.

I am not a huge fan of conflict and dont like correction people as I am afraid it will always make me look like a jerk, but I do correct all rule mistakes I see and request that everyone else do the same to me. I dont want to get the rules wrong and I dont want anyone else to either.

Davor wrote:

Spoiler:

 kingbobbito wrote:
I can say with reasonable certainty that I know all the rules.

Really? First off, I say you are FULL OF YOURSELF. Nobody and I MEAN NOBODY knows all the rules. You even said yourself you have "to look something up" and right there you don't know ALL THE RULES. Second off, why "is it a lost cause?" Sometimes I think people need to look in the mirror, so you are MR PERFECT, you one of the smartest people on the planet because you know 40K rules? Come on, this was a one time even no? You haven't said anyone else did this.

And WHO CARES, you lost a game. "waaaa I lost because he didn't know his rules." Like really? You needed to bring that up because you lost a game with plastic toy soldiers, it's irrelevant to what you are saying except your ego.

Now just in case you made a poor choice in words (Hell I do it all the time.) all you can do is keep doing what you do. I am coming back to 40K after 5th edition so I get the rules wrong a lot. So when I think someone made a mistake, I correct them, or they correct me. If you see someone who gets mad STOP right there, tell them "they win" and just pack up. Explain to them. "I see you are getting mad because I view the rules differently than you and so I don't upset you anymore, I will stop playing now. There is no reason to get mad and upset because someone has a differing opinion. Thank you for the game." If this person was actually a nice person, he would be asking why you think that. And then you can explain to him "in my opinion you have made a lot of mistakes and I corrected you with all of them, and I find you are not playing by the rules in the book. I like to play rules by the book, not how people think they should be." or something like that. Even what I said there can be offensive to a few people.

Let him be TFG, not yourself. Right now, not knowing you but going off what you said, you are a bit full of it. Are you sure you were not a bit condescending? Maybe he got "mad" because you gave a sort of arrogance about yourself? We are humans, we don't mind be corrected some of the time, but EVERY time, even if the person is wrong, doesn't mean you have to be right or correct.

Also don't forget you said, "he played for a long time" so it's natural for people to get editions wrong. Hell WE ALL DO IT. For me I can't understand how you can't comprehend this aspect. It actually boggles my mind lol. We are all human, we all make mistakes, and Yes that includes you as well.

I feel you handles the situation fine. Next for GW will be a referee handbook? Kidding.

One of my first games was against a guy who I felt kept getting rules wrong, but it was like my 5th game so I just kept checking the rulebook and my codex when I had questions for myself, so when he said something that seemed off I looked that up as well. A couple things he was right about, but when I started catching more and more wrong (which I was just doing to learn the game), he seemed to be getting very offended and was clearly upset. I figured, too bad, you know I'm new to the game, and I want to learn to play it correctly, not whatever way you're trying to make me play it.

It got to the point where one time I reached for the book, and he just yells "WHY ARE YOU LOOKING IT UP I KNOW WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT" so I calmly said "Look man, we've already found things you were wrong about, we've found things I've been wrong about, I'm learning the game, I want to know for sure what's what so I'm gonna check this." He was wrong again. It slowed us down a bit, but I honestly got the feeling he was more interested in stomping a newb than helping me learn the game (or truly learning it himself) so I really didn't care how he felt at that point. It got to the point where he would claim he could do something and I figured the game was botched anyway so whatever. I made mental notes of things to look up later and our last few turns went quick. Guess what, he nearly tabled me and won by a significant amount of points.

Knowing the guy is at the LGS very often made me avoid it for a couple weeks after, and I've politely declined any offer of a game from him since. I have no problem losing, but I felt like he had a total lack of decency about the game, and still brags to people around the store about the one time he stomped me.

So I think you handled your thing fine. It sounds like exactly how I handled mine, except you have more knowledge haha. The level of stress was nuts to me, and it bothered me for days (I have an anxiety disorder that I'm winning the fight against but it flares in some instances). I just decided that in the future I won't play him unless I have to (LGS events). Every time I decline, it seems like it bothers him a bit more, too, so I wonder if there's something going on in his head about it.

From your description of the game you two played, as well as the way you politely defended yourself from Davor's overreaction, I'd say you're probably not the problem.

Your purposefully uninformed opponent sounds like a horrible person to stand across the table from for multiple hours. You tried teaching him something and he didn't believe you, so he took the book after you read it to him and looked at it himself. When confronted with the truth he became angry with YOU. Total A-hole. Don't waste any more of your life worrying about him (on this forum) or playing him.

Tbh it depends on the situation. With my meta normally they listen to what I say then look it up in the BRB. If I'm right numerous times we normally just go with it, but we know the rules quite well so it causes very few issues.

We do have one guy who always causes issues but we just roll off on a dice. If I'm pissed off I let them do it that game, but will research the rule in question after and make sure I can resolve it next game quickly.

I was aggressive on purpose for a reason. So you true colours did show out. So you do believe you are above others now eh? Way to go and insult almost all the people on the forum who play 40K.

Now that being said, I will take it down a notch. After all we are trying to help you, and what I did actually worked. Not trying to mean here or an arse, but asking, do you have a superiority complex? Maybe you "roll your eyes" at things which you perceive as minor or "everybody should know". Maybe that is what happened. The guy made a mistake and you don't even realize you roll your eyes, or something like a huff or what not? That could get people upset. Not saying that is the case, but I just find it funny the words you choose, I am seeing "Sheldon Cooper" type behaviour here. What you find as normal is not normal for most of us. So do you raise your eye brows, or huff, or roll your eyes or some kind of facial or body features you do? Ask your friends and family, since a lot of us, me included usually don't see this kind of behaviour on our selves. After all ourselves are never wrong correct?

As for being a lost cause, are you just talking about this guy in particular or anyone else? I thought you meant anyone else. I would say no, it's not a lost cause to help other people or correct them when they are wrong. For the guy you were talking about? I wouldn't waste any more time on him. Like I said, we all make mistakes. If he doesn't want to acknowledge it, it sounds like someone I and most people wouldn't want to associate with. He doesn't sound like fun to be played with.

Davor wrote:

Now that being said, I will take it down a notch. .

It'd be best.

Thanks.

The balkanisation I see generally falls along the lines of people who are concerned with learning the rules of the game and playing within them and those who use some bizarre mixture of culture, ego and politics to circumvent acquiring knowledge of the rules.


I deal with rules debates similarly to how you do and I've also gotten to that breaking point of not wanting the game to go on so badly I stop correcting my opponent in the hopes of a swift end to the insanity. Let the wookie win, basically.

There used to be more of "our" perspective back when our local GW had gaming tables. It was seen as sort of a community good to correct players making grievous rules errors. It was the high tide lifts all boats approach.

But that only lasted until 6th, then the kiddies really took over, they used to stick to apoc and we used to leave them alone to make things up as they went along. They weren't playing 40k after all. But as the vets retreated to their collective basements the

only ones left were the kind of people that think looking something up in a rule book is being a rules lawyer...



I think there's nothing wrong with wanting to learn the rules and it's probably the best sign of maturity in a new player. Having moved from player to player and group to group, it sadly seems like there are fewer and fewer opponents I wish to play and a lot of it is for the reasons you state. While there certainly are players I've seen who take some joy in being a bit of a corrector, it doesn't make them wrong.

I think jervis has done a massive disservice to the culture of the game. Behavior like Davos's tends to be the end result of taking the "spirit of the game" "social contract kool aid" stuff too far into 4+ everything metaphysics. The game just devolves into post modernism meets toy soldiers.

I choose violence

 MarsNZ wrote:
I choose violence

Calm down there Cersei.

a) Listen to their interpretation... maybe it is right!

b) Give my interpretation, supported by some quotes.

c) Make two offers:

1) to play it their way this time (because maybe their strategy relies on it) and play my way next time

2) for me to get a round of drinks in to give them a bit of time to think it over.

d) play it whichever way they end up choosing; I try not to base my plans around 'iffy' interpretations, so don't generally mind too much if a ruling goes against what I expect. Allowing my opponent to make the choice just helps the game be more amicable and go more smoothly. I often find after buying them a drink and giving them time to look it over they'll go with my interpretation anyway (since they have had time to adjust their plans/strategies I suppose).

I just go "yeah, sure, whatevs, let's just play". But then I don't have the luxury to play with people I don't know...

It can vary based on the argument.

If they think they can over watch again because I failed the first unit'sales charge, I'll debate, but accept their understanding if they don't budge.

But, I had a game with Corsairs all with jetpackz with skimmer support, and the opponent claimed I needed to roll DT if I crossed any terrain at all (and needed to cross cover every turn, but never ended on it). I definitely argued that one (as it would have been virtually any autoloss - I needed to maneuver to get in range each turn).