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Hey guys!
I was unsure if this should go in the Tactics thread but I feel its more suited to general discussion as its not requiring an answer to combat any particular threat.

I just picked up the Start Collecting Skitarii box, and have a bit of a conundrum. Do i make the Rangers or the Vanguard variant ?

From what i've researched, the rangers are good for stand back and throw some rounds down range objective camping.

The Vanguard on the other hand seem to be more mid ranged nasty blasting (If i recall 3 shots etc).

I can see both their uses but am pretty undecided on which way to go , does anyone out there have some generalized advice on these two units and their best uses ? Past experiences ?

Thanks !

Overall I prefer vanguard - they throw out a lot of shots and are a threat to anything that's not a tank.

I've found Vanguard to be worth it most of the time, rangers not so much.

The 30" range rangers have is nice, but they tend to suffer from only being one Str 4 shot. Sure, vanguard have even lower strength on their weapons, but they get tripple the shots and any 6 makes 2 wounds. 10 vanguard shooting Radium carbines against T4 make for 12 wounds on average. 10 Rangers manage about 4. Increasing the toughness will only put the balance more in favor of the Vanguard.

The only issue is getting them there.
What I love doing, is buying a bunker with an escape hatch. Alternatively, if you can give them outflank or infiltrate, you're golden.

I agree with DaPino on most of this. The rangers are great as a target of opportunity hunter unit. I leave them lurking in cover with transonic rifles and pick something and harass them till they are forced to be dealt with. The 60in range on the rifle plus its wonky rules really lets them reach out and threaten most things.
I should be noted that vanguard can take the rifle too. I advise against it as it hinders their mobility.

 ThirstySpaceMan wrote:
I agree with DaPino on most of this. The rangers are great as a target of opportunity hunter unit. I leave them lurking in cover with transonic rifles and pick something and harass them till they are forced to be dealt with. The 60in range on the rifle plus its wonky rules really lets them reach out and threaten most things.
I should be noted that vanguard can take the rifle too. I advise against it as it hinders their mobility.

They are still relentless so it doesn't really matter.

Interesting points in this thread so far. Personally I haven't had much experience with short/mid ranged weaponry that isn't attached to something fast (I.e thunderwolves with pistols, pod melta units...etc) so it will definitely be a new experience for me to learn.

If Admech got some transport similar to marines with their rhinos it would be a game changer.

So im leaning towards the Vanguard . Im thinking i'll bunker them down in cover on objectives about midway accross the board and just throw shots at the enemy. In my army I managed to grab some cult Breachers and Destroyer servitors which i'll be using in a more ranged firepower role.

Thanks for your input

Keep your mechanical digits crossed that the new IA book gives us access to 30k admech transports. Praise be the Machine God! May your source code always flow pure.

Also the thunder chickens are crazy good.

I love my rangers but if one or the other go vanguard. But with that set you coukd actually make two five man squads and set up both types then try which style suits you. That long range cover from Rangers helps the vanguard survive

Honestly, Vanguard for front lines and Naked Rangers for Warlord / Dominus maniple.

Vanguard get into the thick of it and can rip units apart with the amount of fire they put out, as stated before... and they are so damn cheep! I run mine with the arc rifle so they are nice and cheap and can hurt absolutely anything they can see for being the price of a tactical squad w/ a plasma cannon. I should warn you though, never make a vanguard warlord if your planning on running him up the field. it's the fastest way to give the opponent a free victory point.

Rangers could sit back on objectives or camp just out of sight, making them pretty good at being the warlord's unit. In my experience the Arquebus is trash. I prefer to run them with only the omnispex as an upgrade so they can harass scouts and other Scion equivalents with their rifles. They are also a good candidate for the Ranger version of the Dominus Maniple* because they are not hurt by the lack of scout like vanguard are.

*The Dominus maniple has two legitimate formations: the early way during inital release was building the troops as vanguard and the newer one is rangers Confusing as heck, but an email to GW says to play whichever one you have.

 Tiger9gamer wrote:


*The Dominus maniple has two legitimate formations: the early way during inital release was building the troops as vanguard and the newer one is rangers Confusing as heck, but an email to GW says to play whichever one you have.

Just wanted to point out that this is also in the draft FAQ, so if anyone argues that emails aren't rules sources, there's your soon-to-be-official source.

ThirstySpaceMan wrote:Keep your mechanical digits crossed that the new IA book gives us access to 30k admech transports. Praise be the Machine God! May your source code always flow pure.

Also the thunder chickens are crazy good.

I have absolutely Zero experience with 30k rules and armies , however am getting my prosthetics on a small bundle of 30k FW Mech in a trade im doing over the coming week ( The models just look so badass....Thallanx, Castellax and Thanatars ) so I am hoping the IA book is all its rumouring to be !

I have to ask, Thunder chickens ? You mean those chicken walker striders 40k Skitarii get ?

Drakka77 wrote:I love my rangers but if one or the other go vanguard. But with that set you coukd actually make two five man squads and set up both types then try which style suits you. That long range cover from Rangers helps the vanguard survive

That is a good point to make two 5 man squads for sure, I hadn't thought of it. Since I rarely get to game now days though i'll make a 10 man for aesthetics Ideally ill include both eventually in my army but my model budget is...how to put it ... smashed to hades ? Right now

Tiger9gamer wrote:Honestly, Vanguard for front lines and Naked Rangers for Warlord / Dominus maniple.

Vanguard get into the thick of it and can rip units apart with the amount of fire they put out, as stated before... and they are so damn cheep! I run mine with the arc rifle so they are nice and cheap and can hurt absolutely anything they can see for being the price of a tactical squad w/ a plasma cannon. I should warn you though, never make a vanguard warlord if your planning on running him up the field. it's the fastest way to give the opponent a free victory point.

Rangers could sit back on objectives or camp just out of sight, making them pretty good at being the warlord's unit. In my experience the Arquebus is trash.

Its interesting you run with the Arc rifle its a good point that they can then deal with anything including armour. In my test lists they always had Plasma Calivers due to the intense damage output potential. Also, because as the books stand now ( Though i doubt ill get to play a game before they get a new book or update ) I would always run both Skitarii and Cult, purely because I feel together they make an amazing army and It always seems that you severely limit potential one way or another by discounting one

While on the topic I must ask ( not owning the books myself for the above stated reason of lack of gaming) how does it work choosing a warlord for a Skitarii detachment ? I understand in a formation like the start collecting box thats one thing, but when doing a CAD using Battlescribe there seems to be no actual HQ unit for a Skitarii army ? :O Would you have to declare a Vanguard prime as a warlord ? I am at a loss for how it works.

 Soldier0Fortune wrote:

Tiger9gamer wrote:Honestly, Vanguard for front lines and Naked Rangers for Warlord / Dominus maniple.

Vanguard get into the thick of it and can rip units apart with the amount of fire they put out, as stated before... and they are so damn cheep! I run mine with the arc rifle so they are nice and cheap and can hurt absolutely anything they can see for being the price of a tactical squad w/ a plasma cannon. I should warn you though, never make a vanguard warlord if your planning on running him up the field. it's the fastest way to give the opponent a free victory point.

Rangers could sit back on objectives or camp just out of sight, making them pretty good at being the warlord's unit. In my experience the Arquebus is trash.

Its interesting you run with the Arc rifle its a good point that they can then deal with anything including armour. In my test lists they always had Plasma Calivers due to the intense damage output potential. Also, because as the books stand now ( Though i doubt ill get to play a game before they get a new book or update ) I would always run both Skitarii and Cult, purely because I feel together they make an amazing army and It always seems that you severely limit potential one way or another by discounting one

While on the topic I must ask ( not owning the books myself for the above stated reason of lack of gaming) how does it work choosing a warlord for a Skitarii detachment ? I understand in a formation like the start collecting box thats one thing, but when doing a CAD using Battlescribe there seems to be no actual HQ unit for a Skitarii army ? :O Would you have to declare a Vanguard prime as a warlord ? I am at a loss for how it works.

Yea, you just pick a prime and declare him as the warlord. super squishy and unsatisfying, but hey at least the squad gets PE

Plasma cavilers are good but are a bit too expensive for a whole 3 per squad. plus your one round of 's away from losing your special weapons from gets hot! Arc rifles are str6 and ap5, but they will melt the circuits of anything with armor.

Cult+skitarii work amazingly well together, but I am unfortunate in that I havn't gotten to the cult part. My dream is to run the cohort cybernetica along side my skitarii legion.

Interested to hear what your getting n a trade though!

I find Rangers to be one of the best objective holders ever, but you'll probably want more Vanguard compared to Rangers. My proxying has shown me that I prefer a ratio of 2 Vanguard to 1 Ranger.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:I find Rangers to be one of the best objective holders ever, but you'll probably want more Vanguard compared to Rangers. My proxying has shown me that I prefer a ratio of 2 Vanguard to 1 Ranger.

That sounds about right. I was considering throwing 2 - 3 units of Vanguard and 1 unit of Rangers as backup It was a really hard choice i'll admit. The undeniable damage output of the Vanguard compared to the long range objective camping of the Rangers

Tiger9gamer wrote:

Yea, you just pick a prime and declare him as the warlord. super squishy and unsatisfying, but hey at least the squad gets PE

Plasma cavilers are good but are a bit too expensive for a whole 3 per squad. plus your one round of 's away from losing your special weapons from gets hot! Arc rifles are str6 and ap5, but they will melt the circuits of anything with armor.

Cult+skitarii work amazingly well together, but I am unfortunate in that I havn't gotten to the cult part. My dream is to run the cohort cybernetica along side my skitarii legion.

Interested to hear what your getting n a trade though!

Ahhh I see ! I thought that may be the case. Yeah definately Magos warlord ftw !

That is true, I did sit and consider a shooting phase of 3 Calivers rolling 1's and passing 4+ saves and it is a little daunting. I decided to go with 1 Plasma Caliver and the rest stock rifles. I considered doing one Arc and 1 Plasma but thought it may be a bit too messy of a loadout since firing at armour which is the point of the arc, would see the plasma potentially useful, but waste the rest of the squads firing.

I guess i'll have to grab another squad in the future to make up as Arcs

Definately. I picked up a bunch of Cult on eBay recently including 12 servitors and a squad of castellans. ( Amazingly lucky to have found it at the price it was , and my Hammer budget for the month is gone ) and so definitely intend to run both .

In this trade so far i'm looking at recieving 1 Thanatar, 3 Castellans , 6 Thallax and a Magos in return for a bunch of my Warriors of Chaos from 8th Fantasy.
Having never dabbled in 30k I am unsure of their loadouts however it is undeniable the models look sweet and I'm just excited to paint them up ! And of course put them to use should the new IA book live up to expectations

Ive got 60 (still not entirely sure how that happened) and Im building 40 vanguard, 20 rangers.

vanguard squads have a 50/50 split of the plasma/arc weapons and the rangers have 10 stock and two 5 man squads with two arquebuses apiece.

Not entirely sure if its the best choice mathmatecially, but gives me options and the arquebus units will probably make good long range plinking units for light armor.

The vanguard are definitely what you need for the core of your infantry though. Theyre very flexible and can fight almost anything, theyre just squishy

Dont use the aquabus for anti armour, even with armourbane its not that good i use them for killing specil weapons and back field heavy wepons. Oh always give them an omniscope for cover reduction that thing is well worth the cost.

On a general vangaurd vs ranger i'd say 2 to 1 in the vangards favour works for me.

Skullhammer wrote:Dont use the aquabus for anti armour, even with armourbane its not that good i use them for killing specil weapons and back field heavy wepons. Oh always give them an omniscope for cover reduction that thing is well worth the cost.

On a general vangaurd vs ranger i'd say 2 to 1 in the vangards favour works for me.

I was very much unsold on the Arquebus. I have zero playtest experience so my opinion of course is absolutely well informed ( ) but just from the paper it seemed like a hit or miss addition. The omniscope is definitely a good point though I will admit I had dismissed it up till now .

MrMoustaffa wrote:Ive got 60 (still not entirely sure how that happened) and Im building 40 vanguard, 20 rangers.

vanguard squads have a 50/50 split of the plasma/arc weapons and the rangers have 10 stock and two 5 man squads with two arquebuses apiece.

Not entirely sure if its the best choice mathmatecially, but gives me options and the arquebus units will probably make good long range plinking units for light armor.

The vanguard are definitely what you need for the core of your infantry though. Theyre very flexible and can fight almost anything, theyre just squishy

But...But I must know

That is awesome ! I can only imagine that many robot men running about in a game..definitely a sight to see !

That sounds about right. I find i am very much the same in splitting squads in order to have my pick of the litter. I'll probably end up doing the same thing as I expand my army .

Thanks for your input !

What makes the Arquebus so appealing is that it meshes well with the range of the ordinary Ranger weapon (30"). So on one hand I really want it for that reason, but on the other hand it isn't mathematically good at all.

Yes thunder chickens are the dune strider variants though the plane stock dragoon is best bang for the buck. I find the speed they have gets them up the board nicely and the can sweep vehicles off the table with multiple strength 8 hits on the charge. Biggest issue I have with them is the money you have to. Throw at them to be combat viable is 150.00 minimum unless you get lucky and snag a deal. The poison rifle they can take is a joke because of the loss of the taserlance.

The Arquebus is never my primary weapon except for as stated a small backfield squad I use to harass what ever I feel like that turn. Really a pain to just ignore them as I literally just go with the flow for targets of opportunity. Oh you got one hull point left but bigger targets for me?," vanguard glance that thing."Servitors can then use better weapons on something better. I however agree with skullhammer it is not primarily a anti-tank weapon. targets of opportunity!!!!

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:What makes the Arquebus so appealing is that it meshes well with the range of the ordinary Ranger weapon (30"). So on one hand I really want it for that reason, but on the other hand it isn't mathematically good at all.

That's fair enough. Ill admit they look pretty cool

ThirstySpaceMan wrote:Yes thunder chickens are the dune strider variants though the plane stock dragoon is best bang for the buck. I find the speed they have gets them up the board nicely and the can sweep vehicles off the table with multiple strength 8 hits on the charge. Biggest issue I have with them is the money you have to. Throw at them to be combat viable is 150.00 minimum unless you get lucky and snag a deal. The poison rifle they can take is a joke because of the loss of the taserlance.

The Arquebus is never my primary weapon except for as stated a small backfield squad I use to harass what ever I feel like that turn. Really a pain to just ignore them as I literally just go with the flow for targets of opportunity. Oh you got one hull point left but bigger targets for me?," vanguard glance that thing."Servitors can then use better weapons on something better. I however agree with skullhammer it is not primarily a anti-tank weapon. targets of opportunity!!!!

I have not looked into the Chickens much myself, but have always wondered how good the Dragoons were. I agree entirely on the pricing factor, I have still never seen any for cheaper prices online since release. The whole admec army is a little pricey I find . Damn sexy models though

I almost never take Rangers. Though my love of how the models look make me take them.

I also have a single ranger with vanguard weapons by mistake. But I like him, because the hooded heads are awesome.

If you find a way to get Rending on Vanguard (E.G misfortune)...
YOU CAN MELT PRIMARCHS WITH 1 TURN OF SHOOTING

I enjoy my Vangaurd being an assault force in a squad of Chimeras I built for them (as an added joke, I used glow-in-the-dark paint on both them and their Chimeras!). Their plasma calviers make them great at getting rid of anything trouble-some and any armor would be foolish to come near with their ARC rifles.

My Rangers on the other hand tend to start out with their Transuranic Arquebuses in the back near the objective or high in a structure to snipe anything dumb enough to get too close. They are great at holding objectives as they can pick apart or kill anything that tries to approach.


Id like to think

Vanguard: Assault, Shock Infantry

Rangers: Area Denial, Long Range objective holding.

DontEatRawHagis wrote:I almost never take Rangers. Though my love of how the models look make me take them.

I also have a single ranger with vanguard weapons by mistake. But I like him, because the hooded heads are awesome.

I agree the Hooded heads are amazing. When I built my Vanguard one of them had the hoodless Ranger head ( Also by mistake ) until I realized just how out of place it was

commander dante wrote:If you find a way to get Rending on Vanguard (E.G misfortune)...
YOU CAN MELT PRIMARCHS WITH 1 TURN OF SHOOTING

Whilst I have no working knowledge of the 30k Game , I can only imagine all their shots with rending against ...say... a squad of paladins or termies

Engine of War wrote:I enjoy my Vangaurd being an assault force in a squad of Chimeras I built for them (as an added joke, I used glow-in-the-dark paint on both them and their Chimeras!). Their plasma calviers make them great at getting rid of anything trouble-some and any armor would be foolish to come near with their ARC rifles.

My Rangers on the other hand tend to start out with their Transuranic Arquebuses in the back near the objective or high in a structure to snipe anything dumb enough to get too close. They are great at holding objectives as they can pick apart or kill anything that tries to approach.


Id like to think

Vanguard: Assault, Shock Infantry

Rangers: Area Denial, Long Range objective holding.

I like the Glow in the dark paint idea.
Thats a fair assessment. Despite not playing much at all now days, a fair few of my opponents favoured fast armies such as blood angels, ravenwing or drop pod lists. I could see them playing havoc with the Ranger loadout but getting pretty dented trying to go for Vanguard