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So, myself and a couple other players discussed this briefly the other night and I was curious if something like it has been done. I find there is a fairly large gap in squadron building skill here; some of us are good at making a squad that has synergy and performs well on the table (when flown properly, of course) and others just kind of throw things together and hope or expect it to work, usually to fairly poor results.So, I thought it might be fun to swap squadrons at random one night. It could give people the opportunity to fly something different, or that they aren't used to and just be good for a laugh. Maybe it would even give some insight into how the more advanced players put squadrons together for the less experienced players.
So, has anyone tried something like this? I feel like it could work but I'd need to establish some kind of rules so nobody gets screwed over by someone bringing some silly 4x HWK w/ gunner list or something. Any thoughts?
I did that with a buddy. We each brought three of our favorite squads and randomly drew from the other's favorite squad.
Aside from a gentleman's agreement, I do not think that you can enforce a no bad list rule. Especially, if some of the players are truly bad at squad building.
You could set up a point system, 1 point for winning, .5 for the player who built the squad. Or maybe a vote for favorite squad?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/06/09 19:17:27
An idea I've had around list swapping that I e wanted to try, was as part of a tournament, whereby there would be two prizes, one for the person that wins the most games, and one for the list that wins the most games. To me at least that seems like a decent way of ensuring a level playing field
I've been in a FLGS event like this. The idea was to build a list then randomly assign another player to fly it. And then win . And your list had to be within a 95-100 point spread (so no lists of a single Academy Pilot with one heck of an initiative bid).
Since you knew you weren't going to fly what you built, and would likely have to fly against it...it rapidly boiled down to who could build the worst possible list. (Scum was not out yet).
Low PS naked Phantoms (without ACD)...and Moff J as a crew. Generic HWKs with R2D2, Gunner, or Luke crews. Any ship that has a TL action taking the "Targetting Computer" Mod (just to waste 2 more points). The same with Stygium Accelerator on non-cloaking ships.
And not having multiples of any ship so formation flying was impossible.
Recently another fun one was a generic event. No named pilots and no Unique upgrades allowed.
There ought to be points awarded for list-building. That ought to account for over 50% of the whole grade. You basically win for being extremely sportsman-like (is that even a word?)
GamesWorkshop wrote: And I would have gotten away with it too, if it weren't for you meddling kids!
Gotta disagree. Sportsmanship includes following the rules...if the rules allow for things like TLT Y-wings, Triple Jumpmasters, Triple Regen, and every other "game Breaking list" that has come out since the original TIE Swarm then its not bad sportsmanship to field those lists.
Anyone can get the ships and cards and do it themselves...just as they can develop the paper counter for the rock list.
Creating a points category for list building would lead to bad blood over someone being punished for creating a perfectly legal squadron.
KellyJ wrote: Gotta disagree. Sportsmanship includes following the rules...if the rules allow for things like TLT Y-wings, Triple Jumpmasters, Triple Regen, and every other "game Breaking list" that has come out since the original TIE Swarm then its not bad sportsmanship to field those lists.
Anyone can get the ships and cards and do it themselves...just as they can develop the paper counter for the rock list.
Creating a points category for list building would lead to bad blood over someone being punished for creating a perfectly legal squadron.
And I would have to disagree with your disagreement. There are people in my gaming group who are relatively new and have shown up with nothing but powerful "net lists", which they play with every game. None of these lists require skill, and completely decimate those who are not prepared. Why should I feel they are being "sportsman-like" when I want to run a casual list with Hera in the Ghost, followed by Ezra and backed up by [insert ship here].
Sportsmanship can mean multiple things, but abusing net lists in a casual environment is not my definition of it.
If its a tourney or some other competition based event, then you should expect hard hitting net-lists.
If its just casual play you can always say no or ask them to fly something different...or develop the perfect counter list to their net list and break that out on them. Once they get their butt handed to them a few times or thye find no one is willing to play with them, they will put the net-list away and try something different.
Your gaming group could also create events where you restrict things. Like no 2 ships of the same type in a list (so no multiple Y-wings even if 1 is TLT and the other stressbot, no multiple Jumps even if they are kitted with different missiles, etc). Or your list MUST contain 1 named pilot. Or you have to fly a different faction each week. Or on a random dice roll you exchange lists.
Worse comes to worse you could also just pull the guy aside and explain the douchebaggery involved in always bringing the latest power list to non-tourney events...But again, if they bring it you don't have to play against it.
But in a tourney setting...every LEGAL list is fair game. To start adding comp points for what that judge decides is a "fair" list is what got 40K so effed up.
Agreed. Someone just pulling off 'that list from the internet' is not the most fun game, but at the same time, trying to 'score' someone for the 'quality' of their list gets very subjective, fast; especially since a lot of lists tend to be scissors/paper/stone with other popular lists.
If you want a change from 'the netlists', one of the best things I can recommend is running a game night kit or two where you play epic and/or the expansion and core set scenarios rather than 100 point dogfights.
Moving to epic makes a huge difference - it's not just a change in the size of your squad but a dramatic change in the way the game plays. Different things are good.
You're not having a knife fight in a small box anymore, so straight line speed matters. X-wings and E-wings become very effective fighters because that speed 4 and 5 straight lets them get around the much larger board and avoid contact with things like B-wings and....frankly most scum ships. Everyone thinks they're going to pull some impressive flanking move on their first game, and screws it up badly because they don't realise how many turns it takes to cross the board.
Corran Horn suffers from not being Etann A'Baht, rather than the other way around. With 3-4 times the ships in twice the space, Soontir Fel won't be able to find enough blind spots to avoid fire, and even he doesn't have enough tokens to shrug off 200 plus points of fire aimed at him, whilst with potentially an entire TIE squadron around him, Youngster with Marksmanship becomes scary as hell.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/06/14 08:01:31
d-usa wrote: "When the Internet sends its people, they're not sending their best. They're not sending you. They're not sending you. They're sending posters that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing strawmen. They're bringing spam. They're trolls. And some, I assume, are good people."
I think you guys are missing the point here. The suggestion about sportsmanship is in the context of a list swapping tournament. Having part of your score to win the tournament be how well the list you brought did means that you have to bring "fair" lists instead of just giving your opponents the worst possible list. If you bring a list of nothing but HWKs with no turrets whoever gets your list is guaranteed to lose, but that means you get zero points for list building and you aren't going to win the tournament. So you have to find the perfect balance between making sure you can beat the list you're giving someone else and
keeping that list as strong as possible so that whoever does get it gives you lots of points towards your list-building score.
The only suggestion I have is to make it less than 50% so the decisions are a little more interesting. At 50% your probably always going to bring a standard tournament list because how well someone else does with it is so important. But at 25% or so you have a little more temptation to bring a weak list and the correct answer is less obvious.
And this. If you bring the latest netlist without knowing how to play it well then you're going to get wiped off the table by a good player. The whole "netlists don't require skill" thing is an excuse made by bad players who are probably going to lose no matter what they bring.
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krodarklorr wrote: Why should I feel they are being "sportsman-like" when I want to run a casual list with Hera in the Ghost, followed by Ezra and backed up by [insert ship here].
For the same reason that you think you should get credit for being "sportsman-like" when you bring a terrible list that auto-loses unless you heavily restrict your opponent's options to keep them from bringing anything effective. If it's ok for you to bring a list that invalidates your opponent's choices then it's ok for them to bring a list that invalidates yours.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/06/14 08:39:46
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
So 4 TLTs and 6 Concussion Missile Zs require skill? I'm sorry, the choices they have to make involve either always moving 3 and Focusing, or moving a short distance and attempting to Target Lock. If you can't, Focus. I've seen new players dominate with those lists.
I'm sorry, the choices they have to make involve either always moving 3 and Focusing, or moving a short distance and attempting to Target Lock. If you can't, Focus.
If you do that and expect to win you'll have a rude awakening when you play someone that is skilled.
I've seen new players dominate with those lists.
Then their opponents weren't very good players. Also, it's possible to be a new player and be good just like it's possible to be an experienced player and not be very good.
d-usa wrote: "When the Internet sends its people, they're not sending their best. They're not sending you. They're not sending you. They're sending posters that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing strawmen. They're bringing spam. They're trolls. And some, I assume, are good people."
So 4 TLTs and 6 Concussion Missile Zs require skill? I'm sorry, the choices they have to make involve either always moving 3 and Focusing, or moving a short distance and attempting to Target Lock. If you can't, Focus. I've seen new players dominate with those lists.
TLTs have a range 1 hole. Missile Zs need arc, spend an action in order to shoot them, and not to be at R1.
I'll concede that outside of a tourney or tourney prep it is more interesting to change things up and perhaps fly ships or use upgrades that aren't necessarily used all the time, but even against opponents who are using top tier lists, there's things to exploit.
Except perhaps JM5K lists at this point, I've not formed a plan for them yet and nobody I know has run 3 to date, but either someone will figure it out or FFG will note a disproportionate performance and address the problem.
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
I think you guys are missing the point here. The suggestion about sportsmanship is in the context of a list swapping tournament. Having part of your score to win the tournament be how well the list you brought did means that you have to bring "fair" lists instead of just giving your opponents the worst possible list. If you bring a list of nothing but HWKs with no turrets whoever gets your list is guaranteed to lose, but that means you get zero points for list building and you aren't going to win the tournament. So you have to find the perfect balance between making sure you can beat the list you're giving someone else and
keeping that list as strong as possible so that whoever does get it gives you lots of points towards your list-building score.
The only suggestion I have is to make it less than 50% so the decisions are a little more interesting. At 50% your probably always going to bring a standard tournament list because how well someone else does with it is so important. But at 25% or so you have a little more temptation to bring a weak list and the correct answer is less obvious.
And this. If you bring the latest netlist without knowing how to play it well then you're going to get wiped off the table by a good player. The whole "netlists don't require skill" thing is an excuse made by bad players who are probably going to lose no matter what they bring.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
krodarklorr wrote: Why should I feel they are being "sportsman-like" when I want to run a casual list with Hera in the Ghost, followed by Ezra and backed up by [insert ship here].
For the same reason that you think you should get credit for being "sportsman-like" when you bring a terrible list that auto-loses unless you heavily restrict your opponent's options to keep them from bringing anything effective. If it's ok for you to bring a list that invalidates your opponent's choices then it's ok for them to bring a list that invalidates yours.
Oh good. And there I thought I made no sense. I agree that we can move the score on a scale to find the right spot, but there has to be a way to quickly assess lists, or require them 24 hours prior to the tourney and compound the score of the pre-assessment with the actual performance score. All of this can be programmed into an excel spreadsheet to give you precise scores.
GamesWorkshop wrote: And I would have gotten away with it too, if it weren't for you meddling kids!
Well, I list swap with some of my buddies. If they are new and are having a hard time making a good list, I will let them use some of mine. I will fly theirs (especially if it is Rebels or Scum, I only own Imperial stuff), and see how the upgrades they took are running on the ships vs what their strategy is. After a few games, I will let them know what I would change to suit how I play, and they will get to see some stuff they might not have thought about. I think it is quite fun in friendly games with my buddies.
We really just use to help with exposure to different things, and by flying ships from a different faction, it helps them learn how to fly against things in that faction.
AKA "how to lose a game with TLT spam". If you fly predictably like this against a good player you will be donut holed and killed mercilessly. To win against good players with TLT spam you have to use your full maneuvering potential, set blocks, get in-arc shots against autothrusters, etc. And you have to do it quickly, because your y-wings don't dodge very well and once you drop below a certain critical mass point you can't inflict damage at all. If you fail to take advantage of your tools and get to a situation where you have 50 points of TLT y-wings against 35 points of Soontir Fel you will lose the game 95% of the time.
What "move 3-speed and focus" with TLT spam does is allow a newbie to avoid some of the catastrophic mistakes that newbies tend to make (both in list building and on the table), which is often enough to beat other newbies who brought bad lists. But it doesn't work very well for long, once you and your opponents rise above clueless newbie status and learn how the game works you'll have to come up with better strategies.
or moving a short distance and attempting to Target Lock. If you can't, Focus.
AKA "how to lose a game with a missile swarm". Missile z-95 swarm isn't a very good list in the first place, and flying it like this almost guarantees that you will lose. It makes you way too predictable, which means that your alpha strike is going to hit the wrong ship if you can even get it off at all. And then the important ship your opponent didn't let you shoot at is going to join the fight and wipe you off the table, because a handful of z-95s with no missiles left are rarely enough to win the game. Only bad players with bad lists consistently lose to a z-95 swarm played with this strategy.
I've seen new players dominate with those lists.
Against good players, or against other newbies? I can believe that they dominate against other weak players, simply because a weak player with a good list that someone else made for them is at least avoiding one opportunity for their lack of skill to hurt them. I remain incredibly skeptical of the thought that newbies are going to consistently beat good players by autopiloting netlists.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
krodarklorr wrote: Why should I feel they are being "sportsman-like" when I want to run a casual list with Hera in the Ghost, followed by Ezra and backed up by [insert ship here].
Sportsmanship can mean multiple things, but abusing net lists in a casual environment is not my definition of it.
I'd be interested to know exactly what your definition is. Exactly how many TLTs or Concussion-Zs can someone take before they are being "unsportsmanlike"? Because it sounds like the threshold is "any list that beats your list". What if I want to bring my Hull Upgrade Whisper, with Darth Vader crew list, and start calling your Hera List "unsportsmanlike", simply because my list can't win against it?
And before you go criticizing Darth Vader-Whisper... It takes a butt-load of "real skill"* to win with that list, by comparison, your Hera list practically plays itself.
*Any resemblance between lists that suck and lists that require more skill to win with, is probably just coincidence...
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/06/15 09:31:28
Swapping lists can work, but - as noted - the big problem is not that you avoid someone bringing "the list which requires no skill"* but because competitive types can game the system the other way by deliberately bringing garbage squads, because the odds are against them having to use it.
What works well is play 2 games - one with the squad you bought, and one with your opponent's squad. Do it that way round - so you can see the squad work in the hands of someone who (in theory!) knows how to use it, then try to use it yourself against a squad whose weaknesses you know (in theory) how to exploit.
It makes for a VERY good evening and one that's quite a learning experience for an X-wing player.
Firstly, there can be no arguments that someone got an auto-lose/auto-win matchup, because that must, if it were the case, be a draw. Secondly, one of the best ways to learn how to use your own preferred squad is to try and kill it with a variety of different squads, and the best way to learn how to kill 'that squad' is to control it yourself, and watch how other experienced players take it on with the same toolset.
* And I agree with the above here: Every list requires skill. The exact techniques for using a list vary, but winning with a list against all comers requires skill, whether it's with Jumpmasters, Aces, Swarms, or a Laser Turret squad. I've seen all four types of list go through a 6-game day undefeated, and in each case it's as a result of the skill of the pilot and them practicing with it and tweaking it sufficiently to allow them to use those tactics.
