Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

For all rules intents and purposes, do chainswords count as close combat weapons for those models that can be equipped with "close combat weapons"?

Example: Can Chaos Space Marines be run with boltpistols and chainswords?

As far as I'm aware, Chainswords and Close Combat Weapons have the same profile (so they are effectively the same), but they are technically two different weapons each with thier own "Unique" profile.

 IllumiNini wrote:
As far as I'm aware, Chainswords and Close Combat Weapons have the same profile (so they are effectively the same), but they are technically two different weapons each with thier own "Unique" profile.

So chaos space marines can't be modeled with chainswords?

 Traditio wrote:

 IllumiNini wrote:
As far as I'm aware, Chainswords and Close Combat Weapons have the same profile (so they are effectively the same), but they are technically two different weapons each with thier own "Unique" profile.

So chaos space marines can't be modeled with chainswords?

Well Close Combat Weapons and Chainswords have the same profile as well as the fact that, from a fluff perspective, CSM have much of the same mechanical wargear as the Space Marines (thanks to the Dark Mechanicum). So I don't see why a CSM model couldn't be given a Chainsword.

 IllumiNini wrote:

 Traditio wrote:

 IllumiNini wrote:
As far as I'm aware, Chainswords and Close Combat Weapons have the same profile (so they are effectively the same), but they are technically two different weapons each with thier own "Unique" profile.

So chaos space marines can't be modeled with chainswords?

Well Close Combat Weapons and Chainswords have the same profile as well as the fact that, from a fluff perspective, CSM have much of the same mechanical wargear as the Space Marines (thanks to the Dark Mechanicum). So I don't see why a CSM model couldn't be given a Chainsword.

I'm having similar thoughts.

On the one hand: CCWs and chainswords have a different weapon profile.

On the other hand: that profile is exactly the same.

Furthermore: I'm looking dead on at a metallic (I think) CSM model that has a chainsword apparently welded onto it.

And I believe that I've seen what are, in effect, chainsword bits for space marine scout models.

Close combat weapons are a broad range of things.
Hell even pistols count as close combat weapons.

Chainswords are just one of the things that count as a close combat weapon. But not all close combat weapons are also chainswords.

Codex: CSM came out before there was any rules distinction between Chainswords and Close Combat Weapons*, so it would be silly to call someone out on it when their codex doesn't even have rules for talking Chainswords while the models clearly come with them.

So knock yourself out and use those Chainswords as CCWs.

*Other than the occasional reference to Chainswords counting as Close Combat Weapons, which I believe a few codices in 5th edition did.

 Traditio wrote:

 IllumiNini wrote:
As far as I'm aware, Chainswords and Close Combat Weapons have the same profile (so they are effectively the same), but they are technically two different weapons each with thier own "Unique" profile.

So chaos space marines can't be modeled with chainswords?

Honestly you could model them carrying a Klaive for all I care, so long as your running them with the equipment they've paid the points for and you're not going out of your way to model for advantage it really doesn't matter what you build them wiht IMO, so long as you and your opponent both know what they have.

 Traditio wrote:
For all rules intents and purposes, do chainswords count as close combat weapons for those models that can be equipped with "close combat weapons"?

Example: Can Chaos Space Marines be run with boltpistols and chainswords?

Sure. It doesn't change the rules and even WYSIWYG wise I'd say it's perfectly fine. It's just a specific flavour of close combat weapon.
I think Chainswords should be better than combat knives, but that's just my opinion.

Is there any situation where there would be pros/cons of being a chainsword vs. a generic CCW?

I can’t think of any, but there might be some obscure rules out there that gives chainswords a boost.

In which case, it might be relevant, but probably won’t be.

I’ve always viewed them as interchangeable, as there has not been a difference between a chainsword and a sharp stick since we stepped away from 2nd edition.

Chainswords are psychic weapons, because you have to suspend your disbelief and really really want them to work.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Chainswords are psychic weapons, because you have to suspend your disbelief and really really want them to work.

SJ

There are far worse things then the chainsword in the 40k universe that need a rain check from reality. They are, fundamentally, chainsaws. Which obey the laws of physics and don’t need any handwavium to function.

Now are they a practical weapon? You got me here. On anything but the softest of targets they are going to choke, clog, jam, slip, and are in general going to be more of a threat to the wielder then the target. Now some of that might be hand waved away with a little sci-fi super science. Probably not enough to make them functional on a battlefield in anything other then a hyper specialized role.

But the rule-of-cool forgives many, many things. And weaponized chainsaws are awesome!

 oldzoggy wrote:
...Chainswords are just one of the things that count as a close combat weapon...

That is not true.

Chainswords do not count as a close combat weapon, but they do have an identical profile.

Chainswords are CCWs, but not all CCWs are Chainswords.

Go ahead - I cannot see why anyone would have an issue with this. Maybe Chaos-ify them up a bit to fit the warband's fluff, but aside from that, go ahead!

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Chainswords are CCWs, but not all CCWs are Chainswords.

Chainswords and Close Combat Weapons, do not share a profile. they have seperate profiles, and as such chainswords are not Close Combat Weapons (Even if they are weapons used in close combat).

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Chainswords are CCWs, but not all CCWs are Chainswords.

Chainswords and Close Combat Weapons, do not share a profile. they have seperate profiles, and as such chainswords are not Close Combat Weapons (Even if they are weapons used in close combat).

True, they don't share a profile, but their profiles are identical.

Yeah, I'm at a bit of a loss as to just why the current rules needed a separate entry for the chainsword, if they weren't going to finally change it back from being just a regular CCWs, ruleswise....

A chainsword is both a 'Chainsword' and a Close Combat Weapon like a bolter is both a 'Boltgun' and a Rapid-fire Weapon. Being in one group does not disallow it from being in the other group.

 Nevelon wrote:
Is there any situation where there would be pros/cons of being a chainsword vs. a generic CCW?

I can’t think of any, but there might be some obscure rules out there that gives chainswords a boost.

In which case, it might be relevant, but probably won’t be.

I’ve always viewed them as interchangeable, as there has not been a difference between a chainsword and a sharp stick since we stepped away from 2nd edition.

The only situation I can think of is for Salamander chapter tactics for squad sergeants. You could equip the sergeant with a chainsword and choose to master craft it. Sure the marine will be treated as having a CCW if he gets in meele (If you did not equip him with a chainsword), but he does not actually have one thus it cant be master crafted by salamander chapter tactics.

 Ghaz wrote:
A chainsword is both a 'Chainsword' and a Close Combat Weapon like a bolter is both a 'Boltgun' and a Rapid-fire Weapon. Being in one group does not disallow it from being in the other group.

Not true, as "Close Combat Weapons" have their own unique profile and are just a general grouping of "(combat knives, maces, axes and other improvised or primitive weapons)"

Chainswords also have their own unique profile and are grouped with Eviscerators and Heavy Chainswords under the heading "Chainswords"

The profiles are identical, but a Close Combat Weapon is not a Chainsword. (though a chainsword is a weapon used in close combat).

DeathReaper:

Then why are various chaos space marines (e.g., Khorne Berserkers) modeled with chainswords?

Because the models and their current codex both predate the current rules.

Up until this edition (since 3rd edition), Chainswords were just close combat weapons.

As much as you may be right, DeathReaper, you're arguing a null point since for all intents and purposes, Chainswords are treated the same way as the generic Close Combat Weapon and, in the context of the original post, there is no practical difference between the Chaos Space Marine being equipped with a Close Combat Weapon and a Chainsword.

So no, the Chainsword is not the same as the generic Close Combat Weapon, but in the context of what Traditio was asking, it doesn't matter in the slightest since they're effectively treated in the exact same way.

 insaniak wrote:
Because the models and their current codex both predate the current rules.

Up until this edition (since 3rd edition), Chainswords were just close combat weapons.

That sounds right.

So here's the question:

Is it against the rules to model said models with chainswords?

E.g., if I get a group of khorne berserkers, do I need to rip off the chainswords and put something else on instead?

Would a chainsword be any more or less deadly in the hand of a Space Marine than a knife are a fork?
You are fine with chai swords unless/until we get a new Dex.

 Traditio wrote:


Is it against the rules to model said models with chainswords?

Technically, yes.

Practically? No.

So long as they have identical profiles, it makes no practical difference to the game.

 Traditio wrote:

 insaniak wrote:
Because the models and their current codex both predate the current rules.

Up until this edition (since 3rd edition), Chainswords were just close combat weapons.

That sounds right.

So here's the question:

Is it against the rules to model said models with chainswords?

E.g., if I get a group of khorne berserkers, do I need to rip off the chainswords and put something else on instead?

Technically yes (Strict RAW Yes), but I wouldn't make my opponent rip off the Chainswords and put combat knives, maces, axes or other improvised or primitive weapons on their models if they didn't want to.

So I would play it however my opponent has his guys modeled. Chainswords modeled when they only have a ccw in the wargear and they don't want to remodel them, fine by me.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Traditio wrote:
Is it against the rules to model said models with chainswords?

Technically yes (Strict RAW Yes)

Got a reference for that? I'm not aware of any rule regarding WYSIWYG or even having equipment shown at all beyond some specific examples (of which a Chainsword is not one).

Chainswords and Close Combat Weapons are both Melee weapons, but a Chainsword is no more a Close Combat Weapon than a Close Combat Weapon is (in a rules sense) a Chainsword. As above, I'm not aware of any requirement to model either Chainswords or Close Combat Weapons in any particular way, or indeed at all.

I like to believe that GW has always wanted to make the chainsword a better weapon and are just looking for the right phrase.
Well Timed - On a roll of 6+ to wound chainsword gains ap5.

Maybe I'm just a dreamer...

 Mr. Shine wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Traditio wrote:
Is it against the rules to model said models with chainswords?

Technically yes (Strict RAW Yes)

Got a reference for that? I'm not aware of any rule regarding WYSIWYG or even having equipment shown at all beyond some specific examples (of which a Chainsword is not one).

No one does. the rules do not cover building your models.

and as a permissive ruleset, unless there is something stating you can build your models, then you can not build your models and must leave them on the sprue...

This kind of covers it though:

BRB Melee weapons chapter, Force weapons section wrote: If a model’s wargear says it has a force weapon that has no further special rules, look at the model to tell which type of force weapon it has: if it’s a sword or dagger, it’s a force sword; if it’s an axe or halberd, it’s a force axe; if it’s a blunt weapon like a staff or mace, it’s a force stave.

The same with the power weapon entry...

BRB Melee weapons chapter, Power Weapons section wrote: If a model’s wargear says it has a power weapon which has no further special rules, look at the model to tell which type of power weapon it has...

In both cases we need to look at the model, therefore it is implying that we need to have the correct wargear represented onto our model's