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Hey everyone,

I have a question regarding line of sight in 40k. In the rulebook it says to target a unit in shooting you need an unblocked line of sight from the model to the target. Does this include intervening units? I know the rules allow you to fire through friendly units without penalty, but does this also apply for enemy units. Personally I am not to fond of the line of sight rules in 40k. After playing other games like Bolt Action they feel really basic and don't always make a lot of sense.

Thanks!

It's always actual line of sight. If that wraithknight is standing directly in front of a small group of fire warriors huddled on a balcony, and you can't see the fire warriors behind that wraithknight, then you can't see the fire warriors behind that wraithknight. Therefore, you can't target them.

Yes but how do you tell 'actual line of sight'? By getting down to the model's eye view? Or do you draw a line crom the model to the target. I always find model's eye view a bit misleading as you are always slightly above the model a lot of the time.

AstraWhat? wrote:
Yes but how do you tell 'actual line of sight'? By getting down to the model's eye view? Or do you draw a line crom the model to the target.

Either is probably fine, in my view, but the model's eye view is generally the go-to procedure.

Nonetheless, back to my initial point: yes, a model can, in fact, obscure a model.

AstraWhat? wrote:
Yes but how do you tell 'actual line of sight'? By getting down to the model's eye view? Or do you draw a line crom the model to the target. I always find model's eye view a bit misleading as you are always slightly above the model a lot of the time.

Yes, you get down and establish the model's eye view.

Although it's worth noting that in the current rules that doesn't actually mean drawing LOS from the model's eyes... You can trace LOS from any part of the model's body.

I find a laser pointer to be handy for Los as well as determining 25% for cover saves

Maj.Lee Scrude wrote:
I find a laser pointer to be handy for Los as well as determining 25% for cover saves

I find that takes it to the extreme. but I play for fun and if there is a question about it I just let the opponent shoot at my dudes.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Maj.Lee Scrude wrote:
I find a laser pointer to be handy for Los as well as determining 25% for cover saves

I find that takes it to the extreme. but I play for fun and if there is a question about it I just let the opponent shoot at my dudes.

I am so conflicted when it comes to certain shooting. Like when my friend measures LOS from his foot (RAW totally legal) as its the only part that can see me the fun guy finds it hilarious and cheers him on, but the FORGE THE NARRATIVE guy in me cries. However you could always say he went prone

I'm mainly concerned about nfantry sized models. Of say I had a unit of genestealers behind some termaguants and there was a spacemarine tactical squad firing head on woúld they be able to target the genestealers. Technically they can see them but line of sight is not unblocked as it specifies in the rulebbook?

Genestealers are quite tall, Termagaunts are quite low-profile, as long as you can draw a line from a single (valid) part of the shooter to a single (valid) part to the shoot-ee then you have line of sight. The fact that some of the possible lines between the two (from the tac marine's feet for example) go through the Termagaunts doesn't stop there being Line of Sight.

It does mean you get to use the Intervening Models rule on page 38 of the rulebook though.

I had 2 situations yesterday playing vs a Tau player where true line of sight was more an annoyance and we had to *forge the narrative*

in the 1st situation he had 2 models of his firewarriors in a crouched position, with such bad luck the ruins windows they stood ended a bit over their head, according the rules they can't fire but we choose to ignore that on such occasion as assume the warriors stood up to fire properly tru the windows.

in the 2nd i had some Dire avengers on a tower over a square and he had a squad right at the tower base , since his models was so close to the tower i had no true Los, but again we both assumed the Dire avengers show up over the top and fired down against the incoming enemies.


Of course this applies to normal matches and somewhat casual ones, if there is some tournament involved i suggest stick to the rules to avoid further issues.

Don't forget that the rules do take into account difficulty with partically obscrurred modells by granting a cover save with friendly or hostile units between shooter and target.

Lord Perversor wrote:
I had 2 situations yesterday playing vs a Tau player where true line of sight was more an annoyance and we had to *forge the narrative*

in the 1st situation he had 2 models of his firewarriors in a crouched position, with such bad luck the ruins windows they stood ended a bit over their head, according the rules they can't fire but we choose to ignore that on such occasion as assume the warriors stood up to fire properly tru the windows.

You should have stuck to RAW.

He likely had them in a crouched position to prevent LOS from being drawn to them while behind cover.

That works both ways, man.

Lord Perversor wrote:
I had 2 situations yesterday playing vs a Tau player where true line of sight was more an annoyance and we had to *forge the narrative*

in the 1st situation he had 2 models of his firewarriors in a crouched position, with such bad luck the ruins windows they stood ended a bit over their head, according the rules they can't fire but we choose to ignore that on such occasion as assume the warriors stood up to fire properly tru the windows.

in the 2nd i had some Dire avengers on a tower over a square and he had a squad right at the tower base , since his models was so close to the tower i had no true Los, but again we both assumed the Dire avengers show up over the top and fired down against the incoming enemies.


Of course this applies to normal matches and somewhat casual ones, if there is some tournament involved i suggest stick to the rules to avoid further issues.

The worst thing about TLOS, IMHO, is the fact that models from the same unit will have different LoS depending on how the phys rep is modeled. A standing model will have different LoS than a crouching one, and a prone one will have an even different LoS than the other two. it is madness.

 Traditio wrote:
He likely had them in a crouched position to prevent LOS from being drawn to them while behind cover.

Or because the fire warrior kit includes crouching legs and you can't build the full number of models unless you use them. Which would be pretty obvious given that it was only two models in the squad, not a whole squad modeled with crouching legs. But I suppose that alternative explanation doesn't fit your belief that Tau players are all some kind of WAAC TFG.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Traditio wrote:
He likely had them in a crouched position to prevent LOS from being drawn to them while behind cover.

Or because the fire warrior kit includes crouching legs and you can't build the full number of models unless you use them. Which would be pretty obvious given that it was only two models in the squad, not a whole squad modeled with crouching legs. But I suppose that alternative explanation doesn't fit your belief that Tau players are all some kind of WAAC TFG.

No no he's right i should had stick to RAW (wich i do in serious/tournament matchs) in a friendly game against a rather inexperienced player, i can assure this Tau player spent an hour the night before *MELTING* the legs of just 2 firewarriors for modeling advantage...

Geez some people just bring some situations to the extreme for nothing.

AstraWhat? wrote:
I know the rules allow you to fire through friendly units without penalty, but does this also apply for enemy units.

Almost right, friendly models from your OWN unit don't cause a penalty when shooting at something. Friendly models from a different unit then the unit you are shooting with block line of sight or create a cover save just as well as an enemy unit does.

Or because the fire warrior kit includes crouching legs and you can't build the full number of models unless you use them. Which would be pretty obvious given that it was only two models in the squad, not a whole squad modeled with crouching legs. But I suppose that alternative explanation doesn't fit your belief that Tau players are all some kind of WAAC TFG.

Indeed. That can work both ways. I've seen someone model an entire squad crouched for supreme protection from cover......and then discover that it worked. Meaning he couldn't see over the aegis line he'd parked them behind.

No-one ever said he was smart...


Ultimately, yes. A big unit - most commonly a tank - can block line of sight to guys behind it. A rhino is generally a well-spent 35 points, even if you just use it as a moving barricade to hide jump troops behind.