Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Okay - some friends of mine are looking at getting into Warmaster/Battle of Five Armies (essentially the same thing).
I was trying to understand some basic tactics, so any experience is welcome.

A big starting point - formations: A brigade can be up to four units moved as a block.


If you've got three Halberdier units (H1, H2, H3) and one Crossbowmen formation (C1), then obviously the crossbowmen want to be in a line abreast or only 1 stand gets to shoot.
Beyond that, though, I'm looking for someone to explain the whys and wherefores.


The obvious formations:

H1 - H2 - H3 - C1 - C1 - C1
H1 - H2 - H3
H1 - H2 - H3

Three infantry in column with the marksmen in a line to their side.

Alternatively, I could put all three melee units in line

H1 - H1 - H1 - C1 - C1 - C1
H2 - H2 - H2
H3 - H3 - H3

Alternatively, I could put the marksman as a front 'rank'.

C1 - C1 - C1
H1 - H1 - H1
H2 - H2 - H2
H3 - H3 - H3



Can someone explain the advantages and disadvantages of each?

Welcome to Warmaster; where Warhammer Fantasy Battles really belongs. You and your friend have made a good choice its really a rewarding system and one where the Armies all play really differently.

This is a tricky question as you have clearly gathered and one that I have been pondering for over a year since I started Warmaster seriously.

The short answer is the third option or;

C1-C2-C3 While Manouvring
H1-H2-H3
H1-H2-H3
H1-H2-H3


C1-C2-C3 When nearing the enemy - the gap limits the amount of damage taking and loosing a charge will do (only one additional charge if you win combat)

H1-H2-H3
H1-H2-H3
H1-H2-H3


First off, if you've not done so I'd suggest going to listen to the Warmaster.Podcast. It's quite new (21 episodes to date) and deals with Warmaster starting out, army lists, fluff, tactics and the WarMaster tournament scene. It's good fun and made by a couple of chaps from the club I attend (Chelmsford Bunker in Essex). Their background is GW then Warmachine. So its a interesting mix of old skool reminisces, rage at AoS and elements of a more tournament (WM/H) deconstruct of the topics at hand. It will also direct you to allot of non-ebay model sources.

As for my personal opinion how you line up a Brigade depends on what you have in it and what you want to accomplish; there is no definite best strategy which is part of Warmaster's cham I would suggest.

First to note is that Warmaster is all about the Cavalry and sweeping manoeuvre so you will want to gauge what you are up against and your overall plan as this will make a difference to how you stack your units. Because of base sizes a wide base is vulnerable to the small frontage cavalry base. So to be most resilient you want to be in column with units aside one another - a front cavalry charge will still hit hard but each regiment will have supporting stands for resolution with attacks from the adjacent unit if the Charger touches them. Now while this makes the regiment more resilient if the charger does kill your regiment then they will be through behind that brigade. Not a problem if they cannot reach another unit and vulnerable to counter charge. As an undead player this is a decent option as I know my units will evaporate when charged so can lure good enemy units into postion where I can surround and kill them.

The flip side of this is the way combat resolution works, particularly pursuing. If you are line abreast you can take a charge knowing that if you front regiment dies then the second regiment will be hit (and probably also lost) but this will often push your regiments some way back.

So to summarise; Line abreast = Brigade will last longer, Column = Regiments more resistant.

Of course once you factor in flank charges then the whole shebang flips itself again.

So it can also be situational depending upon what units you have to the brigades flanks, terrain and whether you can get infantry in defended or fortified positions.

I don't know where you are based but Paul from the Warmaster.podcast organises tournaments at 4TK in Colchester, Essex on 2nd July 2016. If you can come along there will be plenty of opportunities to learn the game and he mentioned that there are even armies available to people that want to learn.

Welcome to Warmaster; where Warhammer Fantasy Battles really belongs. You and your friend have made a good choice its really a rewarding system and one where the Armies all play really differently.

It's one I've wanted to have a try with for a while. I played a lot of Epic : Armageddon back in the day, so I'm used to the larger scale actually giving a more 'army commander' feel. I've found a full set of Horus Heresy Epic army lists, recently, so am looking to try and interest some of the Horus Heresy crowd at our club with epic. There's something very satisfying about your army being built around a full legion astartes battalion....



We might actually end up playing Black Powder/Pike and Shotte - which appears to be essentially "what warmaster did next" - written by the same team with the same broad rules with a few tweaks - but I've got access to Warmaster models and Dave knows the Warhammer World background well whilst being less knowledgable about historical stuff.

First off, if you've not done so I'd suggest going to listen to the Warmaster.Podcast. It's quite new (21 episodes to date) and deals with Warmaster starting out, army lists, fluff, tactics and the WarMaster tournament scene. So its a interesting mix of old skool reminisces, rage at AoS and elements of a more tournament (WM/H) deconstruct of the topics at hand. It will also direct you to allot of non-ebay model sources.

I'll look into it. Age of Sigmar I don't mind so much - it just needed time to get going and put expand its own model range and scenarios (and get what's supposed to be coming in the General's compendium). I've never really gotten into it but I like it as a basic rules set. The non-ebay model sources I'm fine with. Lacking an 'official' set of events, essentially any 10mm source is pretty much good to go and there's no shortage of 10mm Napoleonic companies who've decided to do orcs or whatever at some point..... the Magister Militum Kangeroo/Platypus roman legions grabbed me quite a bit.

The short answer is the third option or;

C1-C2-C3 While Manouvring
H1-H2-H3
H1-H2-H3
H1-H2-H3

The main problem I had - or thought there was - with putting the missile troops on the front rank rather a flank 'line' was that I'd need to pass an order specifically to them to get them out the way for the melee infantry behind them to charge. Wouldn't I?

C1-C2-C3 When nearing the enemy - the gap limits the amount of damage taking and loosing a charge will do (only one additional charge if you win combat)

H1-H2-H3
H1-H2-H3
H1-H2-H3

Moving some expendable guys up makes sense. But as noted, you can still charge again if you smash a unit in one go (and chariots particularly look like they should erase most missile infantry as soon as they look at them funny), so won't they still be able to pile into the rest of the brigade behind them?

Or is this so they can't then charge on into a putative second brigade behind the first?

First to note is that Warmaster is all about the Cavalry and sweeping manoeuvre so you will want to gauge what you are up against and your overall plan as this will make a difference to how you stack your units.

Yeah. That's one thing that definitely seems to jump out of the rules; unless there's a defensible terrain feature to garrison the infantry on/in/behind, they seem pretty much target practice for cavalry. Is taking a fair proportion of the army as melee infantry blocks just setting yourself up to get massacred?

(Note: I was looking at the alternate army lists - I know the Dogs of War pikemen essentially have footmen who can do the same 'end on' bases, so get a better concentration of attacks, but I'm talking about 'normal' armies).

The flip side of this is the way combat resolution works, particularly pursuing. If you are line abreast you can take a charge knowing that if you front regiment dies then the second regiment will be hit (and probably also lost) but this will often push your regiments some way back.

Ah. I think I get it. Because in

H1-H1-H1
H2-H2-H2
H3-H3-H3

the attacker's only contacted H1, then once (because it's probably a foregone conclusion) he's wiped them out, he can use his 'extra charge) to hit H2 and (in theory) kill them too, but he can't sweep on again into H3.... so come the end of the turn I must have an intact unit left, hopefully with a wounded unit ahead of me.

By comparison

H1-H2-H3
H1-H2-H3
H1-H2-H3

Is fighting with all three units, so gets effectively +3 from support, but if I lose the entire brigade gets massacred.

So.....good for general purpose engagements against other infantry blocks, bad for facing something like chaos knights with a dragon leading them.

Okay.... had a brief 1,000 point game last night using some of the Battle of Five Armies stuff.

Really good fun, even if it was over quickly - goblins really can't stand up to anything in a fight. After the third turn, my army broke - although the good guys were one unit away from breaking too.

Multiple rounds of combat and advances for each round of movement definitely mean that units disappear quickly!


We're looking at stepping up to a 'proper' 2,000 point game next week and trying some lists (with tokens) from the normal warmaster armies.



One thing I noticed - although I may have misunderstood:

If you have an infantry brigade formed up facing the enemy:

H1 - H2 - H3
H1 - H2 - H3
H1 - H2 - H3


E1 - E2 - E3


If I understand the rules right, if I issue an order to the brigade wanting it to charge, I still have to resolve the charge one unit at a time - which means, given maximizing frontage, that the first unit will 'splash' across the front of the enemy and block at least one of the other units from doing so.


First unit (H1) charges:

--- - H2 - H3
--- - H2 - H3
--- - H2 - H3


H1 - H1 - H1
--- - E1 - E2 - E3

Second unit (H3) charges:

--- - H2 - ---
--- - H2 - ---
--- - H2 - ---

--- - --- - --- - H3
H1 - H1 - H1 - H3 - H3
--- - E1 - E2 - E3


And H2 is left 'moshing in' afterwards as support if I want to....

Infantry brigades charging seem like a bit of a confused mess if I'm understanding it right.

locarno24 wrote:....I'll look into it. Age of Sigmar I don't mind so much - it just needed time to get going and put expand its own model range and scenarios (and get what's supposed to be coming in the General's compendium). I've never really gotten into it but I like it as a basic rules set. The non-ebay model sources I'm fine with. Lacking an 'official' set of events, essentially any 10mm source is pretty much good to go and there's no shortage of 10mm Napoleonic companies who've decided to do orcs or whatever at some point..... the Magister Militum Kangeroo/Platypus roman legions grabbed me quite a bit.

It sound like you have it covered but some ranges do not mesh well with GW models because of sizing; so it's worth checking about (also the Specialist Arms forum for lots of tips [url]http://www.forum.specialist-arms.com/[\url]). I'd suggest Polar Fox for Orcs and Warmonger for Empire. Both are deliberately GW compatable and make some smashing models.

The short answer is the third option or;

C1-C2-C3 While Manouvring
H1-H2-H3
H1-H2-H3
H1-H2-H3

The main problem I had - or thought there was - with putting the missile troops on the front rank rather a flank 'line' was that I'd need to pass an order specifically to them to get them out the way for the melee infantry behind them to charge. Wouldn't I?

I tend to offset the archers to give gaps to charge through. Also because of the targeting rules (always the closest target) they tend to need very deliberate positioning anyway to get the most use out of massed (or available) firepower.

C1-C2-C3 When nearing the enemy - the gap limits the amount of damage taking and loosing a charge will do (only one additional charge if you win combat)

H1-H2-H3
H1-H2-H3
H1-H2-H3

Moving some expendable guys up makes sense. But as noted, you can still charge again if you smash a unit in one go (and chariots particularly look like they should erase most missile infantry as soon as they look at them funny), so won't they still be able to pile into the rest of the brigade behind them?

Or is this so they can't then charge on into a putative second brigade behind the first?

They will be but it depends on the gap and whether the charger gets through the screening unit at the first attempt. So if you were set up with a line abreast formation (as a opposed to the one above) an impetuous opponent will crash into the first unit and leave himself open to a counter charge.

First to note is that Warmaster is all about the Cavalry and sweeping manoeuvre so you will want to gauge what you are up against and your overall plan as this will make a difference to how you stack your units.

Yeah. That's one thing that definitely seems to jump out of the rules; unless there's a defensible terrain feature to garrison the infantry on/in/behind, they seem pretty much target practice for cavalry. Is taking a fair proportion of the army as melee infantry blocks just setting yourself up to get massacred?

(Note: I was looking at the alternate army lists - I know the Dogs of War pikemen essentially have footmen who can do the same 'end on' bases, so get a better concentration of attacks, but I'm talking about 'normal' armies).

Infantry still have an important part to play, but as you note defensively they are stronger in terrain. Of course if you max on cavalry you will both reduce your break point and your own ability to shift opposing regiments from terrain, which may be vital to break your opponent. A good mix is the best route. Min maxing can be undone quite easily in Warmaster I have found in my albeit limited experience.

The flip side of this is the way combat resolution works, particularly pursuing. If you are line abreast you can take a charge knowing that if you front regiment dies then the second regiment will be hit (and probably also lost) but this will often push your regiments some way back.

Ah. I think I get it. Because in

H1-H1-H1
H2-H2-H2
H3-H3-H3

the attacker's only contacted H1, then once (because it's probably a foregone conclusion) he's wiped them out, he can use his 'extra charge) to hit H2 and (in theory) kill them too, but he can't sweep on again into H3.... so come the end of the turn I must have an intact unit left, hopefully with a wounded unit ahead of me.

By comparison

H1-H2-H3
H1-H2-H3
H1-H2-H3

Is fighting with all three units, so gets effectively +3 from support, but if I lose the entire brigade gets massacred.

So.....good for general purpose engagements against other infantry blocks, bad for facing something like chaos knights with a dragon leading them.

I think you have it. I played again last night (2000 points Undead against Demons) and noticed that I has deployed completely line abreast. I managed to slow the advance of my opponents demon cavalry so they hi piece meal on lowly Skeleton units on a hill and they bounced two units of Demon Cavalry and counter charged (after raising more dead around them) and wiped them out. It's a good way to see off cavalry if you can support them wit other units (or raise more as I did).

locarno24 wrote:Okay.... had a brief 1,000 point game last night using some of the Battle of Five Armies stuff.

Really good fun, even if it was over quickly - goblins really can't stand up to anything in a fight. After the third turn, my army broke - although the good guys were one unit away from breaking too.

Multiple rounds of combat and advances for each round of movement definitely mean that units disappear quickly!

We're looking at stepping up to a 'proper' 2,000 point game next week and trying some lists (with tokens) from the normal warmaster armies.

Yeah, smaller games can be quite rapid and as you note 2000+ points is the sweet spot for an evenings play or indeed a good tactical battle.

Also there's an army builder here that you might find useful/ It has a great option that prints out all the chosen units special and army rules and makes a good cheat-sheet to use. It also has PDF of the original books and supplements you can print.

http://wm-selector.appspot.com/

Plus if you are playing Token forces there's another website I think called Ricks Warmaster that has a collection of coloured tokens for all armylists (I'm work blocked presently so can't check - sorry ).

One thing I noticed - although I may have misunderstood:

If you have an infantry brigade formed up facing the enemy:

H1 - H2 - H3
H1 - H2 - H3
H1 - H2 - H3


E1 - E2 - E3


If I understand the rules right, if I issue an order to the brigade wanting it to charge, I still have to resolve the charge one unit at a time - which means, given maximizing frontage, that the first unit will 'splash' across the front of the enemy and block at least one of the other units from doing so.


First unit (H1) charges:

--- - H2 - H3
--- - H2 - H3
--- - H2 - H3


H1 - H1 - H1
--- - E1 - E2 - E3

Second unit (H3) charges:

--- - H2 - ---
--- - H2 - ---
--- - H2 - ---

--- - --- - --- - H3
H1 - H1 - H1 - H3 - H3
--- - E1 - E2 - E3


And H2 is left 'moshing in' afterwards as support if I want to....

Infantry brigades charging seem like a bit of a confused mess if I'm understanding it right.

Hmmm, Yeah the basic Warmaster rules can be a bit confusingly laid out.

We play with a set of "agreed" house rules in our group that cuts down on combat Shenanigans due to obscurity in the rules. If you take a look at the rules pack on the 4TK web site for the July Tournament then you will get an idea of what we are doing.

As far as your query goes this means that you go closest to closest and then spread across the front only off-setting if the is not enough movement allowance. I have not yet (as far as I can remember) seen the type of moshing in that you give as an example. Generally if it feels like shenanigans to max out effect I don't think you should be doing this. Generally I feel that the Wamaster rules are a high level command exercise, your example feels to me like you are having a more localise effect on the battle that is perhaps not meant .

I caveat all of this by saying I don't have any rules infornt of me and possess a very poor memory.

As far as your query goes this means that you go closest to closest and then spread across the front only off-setting if the is not enough movement allowance. I have not yet (as far as I can remember) seen the type of moshing in that you give as an example. Generally if it feels like shenanigans to max out effect I don't think you should be doing this. Generally I feel that the Wamaster rules are a high level command exercise, your example feels to me like you are having a more localise effect on the battle that is perhaps not meant .

It's not so much 'trying' to do shenanigans as checking I understand right and a sudden thought about how the rules work.

A cavalry unit charging moves - more or less - straight forwards and smacks into the target ahead of it. Pretty simple, because you never really see cavalry moving around in column.

An infantry unit maximizing frontage will move from a column to a line (or a sort of 'L' if it can't fit as a line).

The upshot of which - if I understand right - is that a unit will automatically change from column to line abreast anyway when you charge. Which means the units behind will probably be blocked from charging, and end up piling in behind - you can't just charge as a column if you resolve each charge one-by-one.

there's another website I think called Ricks Warmaster

Well ahead on that one; I have a hard copy of the rules but the updated army list .pdfs came from there.

Tokens - I think I'll probably do my own for the enjoyment of doing them. It's not like it'll take long, regardless. The joys of copy/paste/recolour.

Specialist Arms forum for lots of tips

Again, definitely. I've been plundering their old Fanatic article archives. Nice to see a lot of them survived - there's even a few bits I did for an article* still there.

Yeah, smaller games can be quite rapid and as you note 2000+ points is the sweet spot for an evenings play or indeed a good tactical battle.

They list it as 'medium' which means I was assuming it's the equivalent of a 1500-1750 point 40k game, which is about right.

We'll probably end up using Empire and Orcs, just to stick with classic adversaries; maybe try a 2000 point versus 1000 point siege at some point soon, too.


* Nothing impressive; when Moscovian and co were writing the Epic Dark Eldar list, I put in a few suggestions, and helped make up some counters, a few of which made it into the .pdf article.

Beware of Orcs if you are starting out, they can be challenging. They have low command ratings so can be very static and not a little frustrating if you want them to charge headlong into battle.

 notprop wrote:
Beware of Orcs if you are starting out, they can be challenging. They have low command ratings so can be very static and not a little frustrating if you want them to charge headlong into battle.

Apparently one of the house rules of a local group I've talked to is adding a +1 bonus for command rolls for every 20cm between the unit/brigade being issued the command and the nearest enemy unit. I like the idea, because it helps low command armies get into initiative range, although I haven't had a chance to try it out with Orcs. Mind passing it along to one of your local players and see what they think?

My initial reaction is that I don't think it would work that well. It would be that bit more complex and almost negate the differance between low and high command ratings. Points would have to be redone as well. Possibly an Army mob rule where large brigades can be more reliably move an order or two directly toward visible forces might work more neatly? So a slight boost without omitting Orc's natural unruliness.

That said I've seen orcs handled very well by experienced players and win the odd tournament.

Certainly there promises to me much discussion of it at the next tournament so I'll see if any interesting ideas crop up.

Beware of Orcs if you are starting out, they can be challenging. They have low command ratings so can be very static and not a little frustrating if you want them to charge headlong into battle.

That's at my opponent's specific request. I'm aware that a guff Ld general is likely to cause trouble, so I've made sure that each brigade has a hero dedicated to babysitting duty; whilst you can't garuantee keeping them moving, at least any one failure won't paralyse the army (like relying on just a Ld10 general with Elves will).

My initial reaction is that I don't think it would work that well. It would be that bit more complex and almost negate the differance between low and high command ratings. Points would have to be redone as well. Possibly an Army mob rule where large brigades can be more reliably move an order or two directly toward visible forces might work more neatly? So a slight boost without omitting Orc's natural unruliness.

That's one thing I like with Black Powder instead - formations are a much bigger thing, with essentially four formations that matter:

1) Line - a line abreast, allows maximum firepower and melee power. Sort of "6 x 2" proportions.

2) Attack Column - a wide column (4 x 3 proportions) - gives a slight increase in saves from non-artillery fire (saves in black powder are mostly a morale thing, not actual armour) and gives you a leadership bonus and one free move if you fail. Full melee ability but heavily limited shooting.

3) March Column - a narrow column (3 x 4 or even 2 x 6) - purely for covering distance quickly, gives a big command bonus, and again, a free move, but you're buggered if you get shot at or charged in this formation.

4) Square - essentially a defensive 'box' designed to keep cavalry out. A bit more true to life in that cavalry are only really useful against already disordered enemies; charging an intact infantry block head on that's formed square is pretty suicidal.


What I do like is the 'free move' concept - formations meant to get around the battlefield faster get one free move on a failed command check. The check is still failed, and the captain (hero) can't do anything else, but a critical unit can't sit there like lemons for two turns in a row.


Taking orcs specifically, then a specific boost would be in keeping with epic:armageddon - ork formations have an initiative of 3+ (the worst in the game by far) but have a +2 bonus when they're being ordered to do At The Double! or Charge! actions - which translates to 'Move straight at the enemy and stab them a lot'.

The problem is that it's not easy to put in in practice - yes, I can well see orcs breaking ranks and charging piecemeal, but that's more an initiative range thing.

To be honest, I like the black powder solution - not just for orcs but for everyone; if you get a free move if you fail your first order to a unit then it means essentially every hero will issue at least one order.

You might restrict it to 'heroes' and 'generals' only - to avoid making it a crutch for lower Ld wizards - but even then it's not the end of the world if you don't. One order isn't enough to allow you to make a charge you couldn't have made on initiative anyway, nor does it help extend the command range of a wizard or skaven hero.