Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

In the new draft faq they state that an IC with a bunch of wulfen (deathpack formation) doesn't stop them from running or charging in the same turn, but they themselves do not benefit. Do the IC's just stay rooted in place or do they get to charge?

i tried to wrap my head around the SW faq too... now it lies on the ground with big tearful eyes, not understanding what just happened

peirceg wrote:
In the new draft faq they state that an IC with a bunch of wulfen (deathpack formation) doesn't stop them from running or charging in the same turn, but they themselves do not benefit. Do the IC's just stay rooted in place or do they get to charge?

If the IC moves as part of the Run, they can't Charge. At least as far as I understand it, but their illogic and the contradictory nature of this group of FAQs I cannot provide a proper direction on this.

Do note that this question was presented in the Replies.

I think it means that he can't charge, but as long as he stays in unit coherency the unit can? I assume that also means that if he gets pulled into combat, he doesn't count as having charged for the purposes of gaining bonuses. it's weird, but it isn't entirely game breaking atleast.

Gotta go with Swampmist. I think GW has kind of thrown their hands in the air with IC's and said "You know how we said units are everything? Yeah, we're wrong. Models are everything, and they just form into little groups called units. Sorry."

It's not what the rules say, but I'm thinking they've made the game so complicated that it just can't hold itself together without falling back onto the model being the core piece of the game, and not the unit.

 Swampmist wrote:
I think it means that he can't charge, but as long as he stays in unit coherency the unit can? I assume that also means that if he gets pulled into combat, he doesn't count as having charged for the purposes of gaining bonuses. it's weird, but it isn't entirely game breaking atleast.

If one model cannot Charge, the unit cannot Charge, unless you are so close that you can maintain unit coherency while doing so (but that counters an earlier LIVE errata, too).

Those Wulfen + IC rulings are very strange indeed.

I'd greatly prefer a logical continuation of the BRB FAQ draft regarding attached ICs only counting as part of the unit for asic rules.

Yeah it made me think the possibilites.

Option A: the IC runs, when charge comes we can't measure any distance or move him closer to the charged unit, at least until his Init phase starts he can pile in at best and attack if the pile in puts him on range.
Option A-2: since the IC run, now the unit is unable to do so.

Option B: Character do not run, unit does, when charge comes the character can charge the full distance as normal.

I think their intention means the character it's not affected by special ruling but the unit can behave as normal (without an IC attached) as long it remains in coherency with it after performing the special rules. A better wording or explanation about how to do that.


They seems to hint that Ic are not affected by unit special rules but the unit can still take advantage of those. Wich is odd when in other codex the wording it's made specifically to stop that. (example battle focus and flickerjump rules for eldar where they say a unit fully composed with miniatures with this special rule)

I think its - as long as the character doesnt run (i.e. doesnt move) then the unit may charge still

This sort of tieds in with the main BRB FAQ letting mixed units run or turbo, meaning "Run" can no longer be a unit level action

The whole sw faq is obviously written by someone who plays sw and wants to do whatever he wants..

Lord Perversor wrote:
Option A: the IC runs, when charge comes we can't measure any distance or move him closer to the charged unit, at least until his Init phase starts he can pile in at best and attack if the pile in puts him on range.
Option A-2: since the IC run, now the unit is unable to do so.

Option B: Character do not run, unit does, when charge comes the character can charge the full distance as normal.

That makes more sense to my brain. The Wulfen in the unit run, then the unit can charge because the IC didn't move in the shooting phase.

 Mulletdude wrote:
That makes more sense to my brain. The Wulfen in the unit run, then the unit can charge because the IC didn't move in the shooting phase.

I don't think that can be right. If it was, it would suggest a few things;

#1 - IC's need to roll their Run tests separately of the units they're in at all times. And if this is true, does that mean the IC can shoot and charge a different unit that the squad he's in?
#2 - IC's in normal units can "drag" or be "dragged" into combat by not running or running them respectively.

Example-1: A Warboss with Mega Armour runs to the front of a mob of Boyz. The Boyz then declare a charge. Overwatch is declared, and is resolved against the Warboss' 2+ save. The Boyz then charge and get into combat, but the Warboss stands still. During the Warboss' initiative, the Warboss is moved 3" into combat.

Example-2: A mob of Boyz runs in front of their Warboss with Mega Armour. The Warboss then declares a charge. Overwatch is declared, and is resolved against the Boyz. The Warboss then successfully charges and gets into combat, but the Boyz stand still. During the Boyz intiative, they are moved 3" into combat.

----------------

I don't think I can wrap my head around those things being true.

Instead, it seems more likely to me that the unit can run and charge, and that the IC can't move during the charge, but piles in as normal during their Initiative phase. Functionally, it would be very similar to Example-1 above, but Example-2 can't happen, and only a single Run roll is made.

 Yarium wrote:
I don't think that can be right. If it was, it would suggest a few things;

#1 - IC's need to roll their Run tests separately of the units they're in at all times. And if this is true, does that mean the IC can shoot and charge a different unit that the squad he's in?
#2 - IC's in normal units can "drag" or be "dragged" into combat by not running or running them respectively.

I'm looking at it like you would a squad of marines with a missile launcher + Chapter Master in ruins. If you roll the difficult terrain test, that's how far the unit can move and you move all but the marine with the missile launcher and CM. Now it's the shooting phase. The marine with the missile launcher and the CM didn't move, so the marine can fire the rocket and the CM can call an orbital bombardment.

Now change that to Wulfen with IC. The unit rolls a run test and the Wulfen move, but the IC is left stationary. Now it's the charge phase. The Wulfen have permission to run and charge, and because the IC didn't move when the unit ran, he can join in the assault.

The FAQ for skyhammer says that the IC can't charge the turn they arrive, but that's because the IC arrived from reserves that turn and doesn't have permission to overcome the restriction. This is the way it's working in my brain, anyways.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Yarium wrote:

Example-1: A Warboss with Mega Armour runs to the front of a mob of Boyz. The Boyz then declare a charge. Overwatch is declared, and is resolved against the Warboss' 2+ save. The Boyz then charge and get into combat, but the Warboss stands still. During the Warboss' initiative, the Warboss is moved 3" into combat.

Example-2: A mob of Boyz runs in front of their Warboss with Mega Armour. The Warboss then declares a charge. Overwatch is declared, and is resolved against the Boyz. The Warboss then successfully charges and gets into combat, but the Boyz stand still. During the Boyz intiative, they are moved 3" into combat.

Using Mega-Armor Warboss is kind of a moot point. The Slow and Purposeful that he has restricts the unit from running in the first place.

Yeah, my bad on that example. I just didn't want to say a Space Marine in Terminator Armour with a squad of Space Marines. Shot myself in the foot on that example, but I'm hoping the concept of the example came across.

That's a good point about Heavy Weapons and moving and shooting. The rules just care about whether or not the model with the Heavy Weapon moved or not, and not whether the unit moved or not. Personally, I've disliked that change for reducing the amount of opportunity-cost in the game, but that's neither here nor there.

In that fashion, I see what you mean. You roll the die for the Run test, but only models that moved during the run count as moving. Big problem here though...

Let's say we're playing, and I'm stuck on whether to run to an objective or charge a unit. I need a 4, 5, or 6 for my run test to get to the objective. I roll a Run result of 2. By the way you've described it, if I don't move ANY of my models in my unit, I can now charge you during the assault phase since none of those models ran?

 Yarium wrote:
Yeah, my bad on that example. I just didn't want to say a Space Marine in Terminator Armour with a squad of Space Marines. Shot myself in the foot on that example, but I'm hoping the concept of the example came across.

That's a good point about Heavy Weapons and moving and shooting. The rules just care about whether or not the model with the Heavy Weapon moved or not, and not whether the unit moved or not. Personally, I've disliked that change for reducing the amount of opportunity-cost in the game, but that's neither here nor there.

In that fashion, I see what you mean. You roll the die for the Run test, but only models that moved during the run count as moving. Big problem here though...

Let's say we're playing, and I'm stuck on whether to run to an objective or charge a unit. I need a 4, 5, or 6 for my run test to get to the objective. I roll a Run result of 2. By the way you've described it, if I don't move ANY of my models in my unit, I can now charge you during the assault phase since none of those models ran?

The only problem here is that the rules say that even if you don't move you still count as running and then you can't assault if you ran. The last two sentences on under RUN on pg 38 say "Models in the unit may then immediately move up to that distance in inches. They may choose not to move after the roll is made, but still count as having Run."

So I see this as GW doesn't know what it's rules are. Either the wulfen can charge after running with the IC or the IC prevents them from charging because he doesn't benefit from the rules, and I think that when they clarify and do a final draft they will change it to take out the confusing "doesn't stop the wulfen from benefiting" clause.

Except that it now doesnt work that way, because the rulebook FAQ allows a unit with bikes to still Run - meaning Run is no longer a Unit level action. Its the only possible way.

If these faqs have shown anything, it's that GW treat their rules rather ....flexibly. I don't have the codex, so I'm going off of the faq here. Death frenzy clearly states ANY model in the unit, and the rules for ICs clearly state that they are part of the unit. Same for unit based formation rules, but you know ... actually applying what it says would be too straight forward.

Resolving rule conflicts seems to be pretty inconsistent too. Not to mention casually changing basic rules as they see fit yet not actually producing erratas. What I've taken away from the faqs so far, is that there are no rules. Just vague concepts on how to play.

As far as the wulfen charge goes and in the spirit of vagueness, The wulfen could charge while the IC can run or not and the IC just happens to be magically locked in combat afterwards. Or perhaps the wulfen aren't running at all, they're "leaping bounds" as in using that special rule rather than running and so they can all charge assuming the IC doesn't run.

So I guess the correct way is that the Wulfen can Run and Charge, but the IC character can only Run and doesn't move during the charge. If the charge is successful, the IC gets into combat anyways, but doesn't count as having charged.

That's the only way I can see this working. And that's really not a nice way for it to work.

I mean, how do you maintain the coherency then? The first model has to be within charge range, but can't move out of coherency with the IC. Then I guess the rest of the models start leap-frogging forward? What happens then when you place the last model and still aren't in base-to-base contact? Is the charge successful? If it's not, how do you undo the conga-line?

Well I suppose the rules still work fine if you interpret the unit to mean the wulfen and IC separately. The IC runs and the wulfen run. Now the IC can't charge, but the wulfen can. The wulfen charge normally, with the only restriction that they have to be in coherency with the IC once your done moving the models as part of the charge. Most likely forming a conga line.

After that the IC is locked in combat, but does not get a charge bonus and possibly can't even attack because he is not in range. And the conga line might see the combat end early.

It appears that an IC joined to a unit is nothing but two completely separate units that just happen to have to stay in coherency with each other as well as some (increasingly) limited interaction with special rules.

Or the IC doesn't move - as Run is no longer a unit level action.

If we're supposed to do it this way it doesn't really matter whether the IC runs or not, either way the wulfen could charge. It would only affect the number of attacks the IC gets should he be in range to attack.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Except that it now doesnt work that way, because the rulebook FAQ allows a unit with bikes to still Run - meaning Run is no longer a Unit level action. Its the only possible way.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Or the IC doesn't move - as Run is no longer a unit level action.

Well, not quite. From what we're seeing, such a unit with multiple unit types declares that it's Running & Turbo Boosting, with the models that are the unit types that can achieve each performing those actions separately. The unit can be said to have done both, though the models will have done one or the other. This is not the same as saying that it's no longer a unit-level action.

In the case of an infantry IC that can't run and charge in an infantry unit that can run and charge, the unit is still the thing that is running and/or charging, but they're saying each model still has to obey its own rules too. Until they clarify what they meant by this, we won't know. As it stands, it appears the unit can charge after running, but the IC has to stand still during the charge. The only thing is that this leads to some other problems. They're not problems as far as the rules are concerned, but it definitely results in a funny-looking and non-intuitive system, which likely means it's not what GW intended.

 Yarium wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Except that it now doesnt work that way, because the rulebook FAQ allows a unit with bikes to still Run - meaning Run is no longer a Unit level action. Its the only possible way.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Or the IC doesn't move - as Run is no longer a unit level action.

Well, not quite. From what we're seeing, such a unit with multiple unit types declares that it's Running & Turbo Boosting, with the models that are the unit types that can achieve each performing those actions separately. The unit can be said to have done both, though the models will have done one or the other. This is not the same as saying that it's no longer a unit-level action.

In the case of an infantry IC that can't run and charge in an infantry unit that can run and charge, the unit is still the thing that is running and/or charging, but they're saying each model still has to obey its own rules too. Until they clarify what they meant by this, we won't know. As it stands, it appears the unit can charge after running, but the IC has to stand still during the charge. The only thing is that this leads to some other problems. They're not problems as far as the rules are concerned, but it definitely results in a funny-looking and non-intuitive system, which likely means it's not what GW intended.

At this point I question if they have any true intentions other than making us scratch our heads. I don't mind them clearing up rules, that's great. I don't even mind changed rules, but I mind when the rules are not clear even after they tried to clear it up.

As for this though I do feel like the conga line here is the only way this is possible. That or maybe the wulfen could charge leaving the IC behind so he becomes his own unit again.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Or the IC doesn't move - as Run is no longer a unit level action.

I don't think that should be a proper interpretation. The case of the Bikes is a different setup, as they are different unit types not includable in the situation. In a way, they are like the Jump Packs, in which they forgot to mention "unit type" when they stated "all models in the unit use the same movement method" for their FAQ.

The only way to exclude the IC joined to the Wulfen in this circumstance is if he literally cannot Run because of his Unit Type.

But then, their drunken monkey dart board has different ideas on how the game should be run.